[Closed] Hybrid cars

Seem to remember reading somewhere that the Mitsubishi wasn't that cheap in the real world to run. If it's only a commuter car why not go for a small frugal petrol/diesel car initial outlay costs are much less too!

couple of work colleagues have the Mitsubishi. Makes great sense as a company car due low tax, I think they get mid 40's mpg in real world, and a grant funded plug in point installed at home. Also free parking in designated bays in Glasgow, which are currently hardly used.

I would just stick to a diesel or a moden small petrol turbo most give better MPG in the real world then the hybrids.
If your keeping it for 5 years then most will be out of warranty and the battery packs are not cheap when they fail and just because there's more in hybrids there more to go wrong and you local garage may struggle with them.

One of my neighbours has the Mitsu. Plugs it in overnight, drives to work on a sniff of petrol. The trip computer averages early 100's mpg.

Not so good on a long trip, but horses for courses. He also can turn the heater on with his phone so it's all nicley defrosted in the cold mornings.

Compared to a Prius it's a generation apart.

And as mentioned above, the Co car tax saving is huge, but without the hairshirt. Good in the snow, too. I like it.

Thanks for the replies. I am leaving a company car scheme so wont get that benefit and I am interested in the "real world" figures which are often significantly different!

So who pays for the electricity to charge the car ?

The person charging it usually. But it's buttons compared to the cost of fuel.

I have an older Prius. Stated figures are 56/61/65. I can get 56 in town and 62 ish on the open road, in the summertime. New models are better of course. A small modern diesel might come close, but a Prius is not a small car, and has a decent amount of power. The big win is in town, where the mpg doesn't drop anything like as much as in a normal car. 60 for me is a decent day, 52 is shocking.

It's a good car to drive to - very easy indeed. No matter how clumsy the driver is with the pedals it's always smooth. I'll definitely be getting another hybrid. I'd have two if they were rated for towing. I might downsize the smaller car to an Auris or even Yaris, if there's enough of an economy benefit.

I've no idea about the Outlander or the Ampera though - the Ampera seems very expensive for what it is. You could also look at the BMW i3 if you want an electric car with a generator. The Outlander seems a bit stupid - create a really economical powertrain and stick it in a car with the aerodynamics of a building. Smart move.

Thanks Molly. I have an estate at the moment so the Outlander would be a replacement and with 2 teenage kids plus camping/biking/dogs its useful to have the extra space so it would be our main family car.
The i3 looks great but as a replacement it is too small.

the VW GTE range (golf and passat) look interesting.
as a company car its almost a no brainer but as a private purchase I'm not so sure.

the new Koenezigger or whatever they are called looks like good hybrid

the Ampera seems very expensive for what it is.

that colleague bought a brand new Octavia 😉

All the customers that we sell to are to take advantage of tax rules that means they can have a hybrid 2.0 turbo diesel top of the range for the same level of to as a bog standard smaller engine.
The idea is great but battery tech needs to move on for a private buyer to feel any benefit. People's perseption of how far a car will drive on battery's alone is WAY WAY lower then they want. And the extra weight and loss of space and increase in repair costs is a factor too.
I'm a huge fan of diesel but the new turbo petrol engines are going to kill diesel/hybrid for the short term future.
1.2 three cylender petrol turbo and 150 BHP from an engine the size of a go kart is impressive. And in most cases huge savings on the purchase price and no difference on economy unless your a 60k per year driver...

I have to take issue with the "there's more stuff on a hybrid to go wrong" idea.
Hybrids are actually considerably less complex than a modern diesel. They generally use a simple petrol engine so no turbo, dmf, dpf, egr etc to go wrong. The electric parts are very simple and virtually maintenance free. Despite all the scare stories the batteries are very long lasting, both Toyota and Nissan (the biggest sellers of electric and hybrid cars) report extremely low failure rates.
If you want reliability, I would trust hybrid over diesel any day of the week.

The idea is great but battery tech needs to move on for a private buyer to feel any benefit

Don't think so. An electric range of 30-40 mile is enough for most people's daily use. That means no petrol at all until you take a trip somewhere. That seems a pretty big change to me.

"1.2 three cylender petrol turbo and 150 BHP from an engine the size of a go kart is impressive"

Yeh and what, 45mpg real world?

They generally use a simple petrol engine so no turbo, dmf, dpf, egr etc to go wrong.

The electric parts are very simple and virtually maintenance free.

Most hybrid cars on the roads are Toyotas and therefore petrol yes. There aren't many diesel hybrids around actually - I think Peugot, Volvo and now VW do them, and I've only ever seen one of those (a Peugot) on the road.

And yet electrical issues form an ever bigger percentage of all car problems.

The traction electrics of a hybrid are nothing like the sensors and ECUs of the normal engine side of things.

Surfer - probably too small for you but there's an Auris estate hybrid. Oh yeah and for larger size and a much better attempt at aerodynamics there's the Prius+ which is a sort of Touran type thing but I think a little bigger. I'd bet it has the same sized boot as that Outlander.

always makes me laugh when people argue about How amazing hybrids are quoting Prius and the like and the perceived benefits... Real world Economy is very low and imagine the Economy in our wet/cold country...
When I've had to explain to people why they are not getting good milage per charge (fully electric) or poor MPG and hybrid and they look at me in surprise when I explain that lights/heating/heated rear screen/heated seats etc all need to be powered from something and that any electrical load will drastically reduce mpg. Yes the same is true of "normal" cars but obviously much less of an issue in milder climates. Most decent systems use a parallel type I.e Diesel engine powers front wheels and battery powers rear wheels obviously 3 phase charging from an altanator and also charging from rear wheel motors on de acceleration. Believe me it's much more complex and to make 2 power sources power one vehicle and make the auto gear box changes feel smooth and seamless isn't "less complex"

Real world Economy is very low

Oh yeah? Imagine the economy? I don't need to, I have done 100k miles in one.

Believe me it's much more complex and to make 2 power sources power one vehicle and make the auto gear box changes feel smooth and seamless isn't "less complex"

Something tells me you don't actually know how a Prius works - I do. I can explain if you like?

Lexus "works" the way I explained above please correct me if I'm wrong buy a penus works by a small petrol engine running almost constantly to recharge the battery.

It depends enormously on where, and how, you drive.
In town, with lots of stop start driving, hybrids are very efficient.
Thrashing down a motorway - extremely inefficient.
As for diesel hybrids - as molgrips pointed out there are very few. They are also either pretty poor (Volvo and Peugeot - read the reviews) or large diesel cars with a small hybrid system purely to make co2 figures look better (Mercedes and land rover).

If I happened to be looking for a new hybrid, I'd be looking at the Lexus CT200h. Nice looking, nice spec sheet, not massive £££££'s

Not quite chrisdiesel.

"Toyota has pioneered what is called the ‘full’ hybrid system, which uses two separate powerplants – battery-powered electric motor and petrol-driven combustion engine. Each of these can power the car alone, or in combination. This is the world’s most popular hybrid system and has sold well over six million units since it was first launched in Japan in August 1997."
Prius is 1.8 vvt

But I am sure lack of knowledge won't stop you.

please correct me if I'm wrong

Lexus and Toyota system (also licensed to Ford afaik) is both a parallel and series hybrid or a combination of both. Petrol engine alone can drive the wheels, or electric, or both, or the petrol engine can recharge the battery and drive wheels. All done with a system of fixed gears.

There's no actual gear shifting transmission either manual or automatic. It's all done with the flow of electrical or kinetic energy. The heart of it is a planetary gear system with the sun in the middle attached to a motor/generator, the planet carrier attached to the engine and a ring gear around the outside attached to the wheels and a second motor generator. It's absolute genius. [url= http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ ]There's a demonstration on this page[/url] that shows how it works - play with the sliders to see what happens at different loads and speeds.

Thrashing down a motorway - extremely inefficient.

Not true. I get my best MPG on the motorway at 70mph - it'll be 62mpg in the summertime, which is better than any petrol car of its size I'd bet. And my car's a 12 year old design. The difference between it and a diesel disappears on the motorway, but that's not 'extremely inefficient' by any stretch.

TAFKSTR - I gave a lift to one of those car delivery guys recently. Got to chatting about cars and of course he'd driven a lot of them. He reckoned the CT200h was awful - harsh ride, crap steering and not fast enough to be sporty despite the image. He thought the Prius was the best hybrid.

Tbh if I wanted a sporty hybrid I'd go for the Honda CR-Z - looks great fun.

Molgrips, genuine question, how do you get such good mpg on the motorway?
Surely, the only time that you're actually 'charging' the battery is when you're decelerating; if you're doing, say, a constant 70mph, when does the battery charge?
Or is the motor using energy stored on previous runs?
I suppose my point is - if you're running a hybrid at a constant speed, for long periods of time, where does the 'free' energy come from??

I'm on my second hybrid, first one I had for 4 years with nothing going wrong with it and I averaged 43mpg during that time, I will add it was a 340bhp beastie so I didn't (couldn't) hold back on it and drive it too gently. On the second one now which is a lot more sensible 220bhp and best MPG I get is on rolling twisty A/B roads, getting 58mpg on one trip Shrewsbury to Gloucester. On long motorway journeys it averages about 49mpg, it's just a case of setting the cruise control and relaxing, if you look at the energy display it is constantly either adding a bit of battery power to geartrain or getting a bit of a charge from the engine and/or wheels when the incline dips a bit. As well as cheap car tax brake pads last absolutely ages, got just over 40000 miles out of a set on the first car.

Molgrips, genuine question, how do you get such good mpg on the motorway?

Set cruise to 70, leave it there. Traffic notwithstanding, obv.

Surely, the only time that you're actually 'charging' the battery is when you're decelerating; if you're doing, say, a constant 70mph, when does the battery charge?

A petrol engine has to be throttled back to stop it running too fast - this is normally done by closing the throttle valve to restrict air coming in. This is very inefficient as it creates turbulence. The Prius can open the throttle more and divert some of that energy that would be wasted to charging the battery. All without shifting any gears or doing anything mechanical. I did say it was bloody clever 🙂

Also - the engine itself is very efficient, being a pseudo-atkinson cycle meaning that the expansion stroke is longer than the compression stroke. So less hot air comes out of the exhaust and gets wasted.

Another thing is that the effective gear ratio is determined by the ratio of energy being generated by one electric motor and powering the other. So again without changing anything mechanical the gear ratio can be varied through a huge range, much greater than a normal gearbox. So it's effectively like having a massive top gear that can instantly shift to any other. All with no extra weight. Did I say it was clever 🙂 Cruising on the flat at 70 the engine is probably only doing about 1800 rpm.

It's a lot more than just a motor bolted onto a petrol engine. Well - the Toyota system is anyway. The Honda system is just that - a motor bolted onto a petrol engine. I know I waffle about it but it's one of the most brilliant innovations in motoring for many decades, and petrol heads who supposedly like automotive engineering despise the thing.

This is what you need, a Tesla Model S p85d, sadly I was only test driving it but they are awesome and not a drop of petrol!
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Have to agree about the gearbox love the CVT couldn't go back to a normal auto box now.

Cruising on the flat at 70 the engine is probably only doing about 1800 rpm.

So does mine

Erm, it's a 2.5 tonne, 3 litre V6 housebrick with a 7sp box though 😉

Mind you don't spill your Costa on the iPad 🙂

If you are travelling 100miles per day, then your average speed much be fairly high (or you are driving ALL day otherwise). As such, that means you are not doing 100miles across town for example. So you want a car that is "low drag" as a priority, because most of the fuel you use will be being used to just push 100miles worth of air out of the way!

I would suggest the smallest turbo diesel that suits your needs!

"hybrids" improve fuel economy by "load leveling" that is they use some sort of electric machine to move the car when the road load is low (ie low speeds), and only use the internal combustion engine when the loads are higher (ie high speeds, due to increasing aero drag).

So, if you only drive mainly at higher speeds, the "hybrid" bit is pointless!

I spent the past 12 months with a Prius as a second car. I loved in through town where you really notice the mpg difference and in stop start traffic on the motorway (althought that's probably mostly because it's an auto). Nowhere near as nice to drive as my other car though - also a Toyota. Although I never tired of watching whether the engine was charging the battery, or charging the wheels or the battery was transferring power to the wheels etc. 🙂

When you think that's a 12 year old car, I'm surprised that the technology doesn't seemed to have moved on all that much.

So you want a car that is "low drag" as a priority

Guess what the most aerodynamic car on the market is..? (or was when I bought mine!)

So, if you only drive mainly at higher speeds, the "hybrid" bit is pointless!

Yes, but then there's all the other energy efficient stuff in something like a Prius.

Also you may or may not give a shit about the environment, but making diesel actually creates quite a lot of CO2, so diesels are simply relocating some CO2.

I'm surprised that the technology doesn't seemed to have moved on all that much.

They sunk a lot of money into the R&D, they are probably still recouperating that. First one was basically a proof of concept, the second was the first mass market, and the third model a stab at a decent car after the technology had been verified and made mainstream. I reckon all their effort now goes on the other hybrid cars.

i for one didnt know that prius's were that clever. That is good. Why did they make them so butt ugly? I kind of want one now.... kind of

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I quite like the fact that they look unlike most other cars.

Why did they make them so butt ugly?

Cos they designed in a lab, not a design studio 🙂

When I change it (not that it needs changing after 100k miles mind) I'll test drive a hybrid Auris and a Yaris - that can be our short range car then, and we'll keep a diesel for long distances and towing. Or maybe a turbo petrol.. or if someone brings out a hybrid that can tow and isn't an SUV.

+1 for the Tesla.

This is what you need, a Tesla Model S p85d, sadly I was only test driving it but they are awesome and not a drop of petrol!

If you can afford £100k or whatever it is, you can afford a really long extension lead 🙂

Tebay services have a charger. That's the only place I've seen the special one.

right... where can I plug one in?

...

Camry Hybdrid is very nice to drive.

Looks like I have 2 main choices. We are buying a car for Surfer eldest who will hopefully pass her test this month.
One option is to keep what I have for weekends (the wife can use it day to days as her journey is short) Give her Fiesta to Surfer junior and buy something economical for my work journeys (which is 50 miles each way the majority motorway)
Choices therefore are turbo diesel mini type a few years old or maybe a Prius. Molly would the latter be a good choice in your opinion?

I'd say test drive them. You might get slightly more mpg from a Prius than a small diesel on motorway, you might not. But it's cleaner. Comes down to car choice. Plus you don't have dpf etc worries in a Prius. They also have timing chain rather than belt, which is nice. Cheap to run they are. And auto.

There is a Tesla here in Dunblane, a good looking thing and goes like a rocket...

Its interesting you say that I have a Merc estate 7sp auto. It was an unmissable deal at the time and it is fantastic to drive and the first auto I have ever had. It does makes my travel and commute effortless so that is an important consideration. I will take your advice and drive one.

If I can afford and justify the expense of a Tesla, plus a 200m long cable to dangle out of my bedroom window and half way down the city centre street, then I can afford a small runaround car (for commuting etc.) AND a decent sized SUV/Estate (for trips to mountains etc.) AND have spare money to buy a new fleet of bikes for the shed. Having enough range in the "tank" to be able to drive further than I might ride on one of those bikes on a Sunday afternoon is merely a bonus.
Might look good and go fast, but if I cant actually get to and from work a couple of times, then it's no more practical than a milk float.

A Tesla has a 250 mile range - you must be an amazing cyclist to ride that far on a Sunday afternoon...

You'd have to be very very brave to drive one much more than 100-200 miles.
Extend the range by a factor of 2 by driving home on the back of an AA truck so you can put some more energy back in it.
Still seen the grand total of exactly 0 charging points.

At least a hybrid is really a petrol car (with small diesel economy).

PS if you can afford it, there's a slight facelift Prius in 2012 that gets you better suspension.

Tesla is not a real solution for plenty of reasons. People say 'oh it's a sports car, it's not expensive compared to X and Y' are missing the point. The reason it's a sports car is because the batteries push the price up through the roof, and the only way to make it feasible at all is to take the whole car into the luxury price bracket. It's simply not possible to make a battery powered car with 200 mile range for cheap.

As said - you could easily get a nice diesel or hybrid car for long trips (or hire one) AND get a small town electric car for short range. And have quite a lot of change.

Still seen the grand total of exactly 0 charging points.

I think most, if not all service stations now have them. There are quite a few in London and IKEA also have them!

I've only recently considered a hybrid/electric car but I have seen lots of charging points.
Its a shame I couldn't go fully electric and buy a Nissan Leaf. Once I start my new job I may get them to install a charging point which would make it easy for me to use one daily (there are a couple of high speed charging points en route so with planning and not too much hanging around its doable)
I am still tempted to get one to use for shorter journeys, use my current car when I have to and look to make savings generally by using the "normal" cars less and the Electric car for all of the shorter shops/picking kids up/local sports/evening running around etc. All of those short journey cost alone add up.
They do a 7 day test drive so a good opportunity to test properly before buying.

(there are a couple of high speed charging points en route so with planning and not too much hanging around its doable)

Yes possibly but so far almost every one I have seen has been vacant. May be a problem in future but not something that would concern me at the moment particularly as I intend keeping my petrol car for longer journeys and family trips etc so vast majority of charging would be done at home.

Can't say I noticed any at the weekend (near Heathrow), and certainly didn't notice any when I was in Scotland last (but then got all my fuel from Morrisons, and maybe they don't have charging points).

Germany is far too wedded to diesel. Never seen a charge point here either, but then my usual station is a small 4 pump jobbie.

Only use for a Tesla imho is as a demonstrator that electric isn't milkfloat any more.

And as mentioned above, and in a thread 2 weeks back, plug-in electric only is only of any use to anyone with a 2.1 children semi-detached with a garage and driveway. Until such time as every other parallel parking bay in the city, and significant numbers of municipal multi storey parking bays, and a whole section of Tescos and work carparks have charging points. Unless you live 3 doors down from Esso/Shell and they don't mind you parking there overnight.

New Koenigsegg Regera looks nice, 1500 horsepower and a single-speed gearbox, and a 9.27-kWh capacity.

Manages 22 miles on one charge, is road legal, and half the price of their current non road legal P1.

Only 80 being made so hurry up.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2016-koenigsegg-regera-photos-and-info-news

roffle. with that range, I'll cycle to and from work. probably arrive home sooner 😉

plug-in electric only is only of any use to anyone with a 2.1 children semi-detached with a garage and driveway

Yes but in fairness there are quite a lot of people who do have a driveway and commute less than 20-30 miles to work. It's hardly a niche!

The big issue though is cost. There's a decent market for small urban runabouts, but they need to be cheap - not £25k!

Personally I think one issue that gets glossed over is just how "clean" they REALLY are...
As in total lifespan.
With the batteries, production, shipping, etc - the figures stack massively in favour of a small 1.2-1.4 16V petrol.
There were some tests done a few years back where a 1.4 Polo could be built and then used for about 10yrs and the environmental impact was the same as putting a Prius in the showroom.

Personally I think one issue that gets glossed over is just how "clean" they REALLY are...
As in total lifespan.

Glossed over? No, it's been done to death.

There were some tests done a few years back where a 1.4 Polo could be built and then used for about 10yrs and the environmental impact was the same as putting a Prius in the showroom.

Not sure - got a link? There was a study commissioned by an oil company about 10 years ago saying that Prius was less eco friendly than a hummer, but it was complete bollocks. However it's been quoted around the web for a decade. It suggested the manufacturing cost in energy alone was something like $430k. Er ok, then how can Toyota sell them for $30k?

I'd like to see some real figures (ie not anti marketing bollocks) if you can find some - I couldn't.

There are electric charging points in my local Asia they're full every time I've been in there. Just never with an electric car, just lazy gits as they're near the door and not the disabled or child spaces. I'd love to buy an electric town car but they just don't add up yet unless you've money to burn. I'd take great joy in blocking in the cars in those spaces and running and extension lead over their roofs 😈

The big issue though is cost

the MPG is effectively meaningless when I can get a Petrol Astra (or equivalent) plus 10 years worth of petrol for the price of a plug-in hybrid (and no fuel) that is of similar size and practicality.

The hybridness or electricness needs to pay itself back within a year or 2 (a bit like petrol vs diesel) before I will entertain the idea.

I think the Auris might be getting there?

Prius and Ampera, no. Not even when Gideon gives you 5 grand back, and Boris lets you drive in central London for free.

molgrips - Member
Personally I think one issue that gets glossed over is just how "clean" they REALLY are...
As in total lifespan.
Glossed over? No, it's been done to death.

There were some tests done a few years back where a 1.4 Polo could be built and then used for about 10yrs and the environmental impact was the same as putting a Prius in the showroom.
Not sure - got a link? There was a study commissioned by an oil company about 10 years ago saying that Prius was less eco friendly than a hummer, but it was complete bollocks. However it's been quoted around the web for a decade. It suggested the manufacturing cost in energy alone was something like $430k. Er ok, then how can Toyota sell them for $30k?

I'd like to see some real figures (ie not anti marketing bollocks) if you can find some - I couldn't.

It was one of the german car mags IIRC Mols

A mate was translating it whilst we were over there on bikes.
Toyota made a loss on every one apparently - the batteries were supposed to be where they made the money back.

The main issue was what it took to manufacture and ship the packs.
Mining of the Lithium, etc.
Transport from the US to Japan, production, then the fact that the packs have to be removed, bodies have to be shipped separate to the packs, then reassembled here/US, etc.
That alone makes them massively un-green before they ever turn a wheel.
Hence when the TCOL is calculated they just cant stack up against a small, lightweight, multivalve petrol.

the MPG is effectively meaningless when I can get a Petrol Astra (or equivalent) plus 10 years worth of petrol for the price of a plug-in hybrid (and no fuel) that is of similar size and practicality.

Well it depends on how many miles you are doing and the nature of those miles. If you drive 25 miles to work and back each day then (just day to day running costs) an electric car has to be a good solution. Given the other things that Molly mentioned, automatic, good acceleration and low noise etc add to the practicality. Charging at home each evening would make daily transport costs trivial surely. How can you compare that with a petrol/diesel cost?

Its on my agenda now for various reasons but we have to ask ourselves why (me included) are driving short journeys in larger cars at great expense. Sooner we are all in google cars the better!

@surfer

I almost had a Leaf, I really, really wanted it to work - I spoke to the local dealer who was happy to install a charging point at home for no extra cost, we were going to have one fitted in the office - my commute is only 5 miles, but other owners put me off frankly.

Nissan quoted a range of 120 miles in some things, but 100 in others, even the most hardened Leaf owners said it's 70 if you hypermile like your life depended on it.

I asked about fitting roof racks, or tailgate carrier for bikes and couldn't find an owner who'd done it, but the feeling was it would drastically reduce mileage.

As would living somewhere hilly.

Basically worst case, living in Wales (as I do) and carrying a bike (which I do) the range would likely be sub 30 miles - went through all the different theoretical trips etc and it became clear - for me - it would be completely useless.

For the few trips it was actually suitable for it would be far, far cheaper to use a taxi - honestly £20 a week would cover it easily - the cost to lease / buy a Leaf is £200 so there's no financial saving.

As for environmental savings, it's pointless - yes you save some Co2 and whatever else at the point of use, but of course the power still has to be generated elsewhere and whilst a power station is a lot more efficient than a car, it'll never overcome the cost of actually making the thing.

To my mind it's a very unenviromentally friendly alternative to a bike, bus or taxi.

daily transport costs may be trivial, but the cost that would otherwise have been petrol or diesel has been paid to Toyota or GM up front.

I based my figures on the total number of KM that I put on my car since I bought it, the price of petrol at the time in Germany, and the MPG that my car delivers.

I assumed a total fuel cost of €0.00 for the hybrid (which sways it back to petrol car), and disregarded the fact that a brand new car might have better MPG (which sways it back to petrol). The only thing remaining is petrol prices over the next 10 years (which sways it towards hybrid).

But then if total cost was the only issue, then I'd dump the car, get a season ticket, and rent a car from Avis for the 3 times a year I drive down to the Alps/Dolomites for a week, and the 1 time per year that I drive to Scotland for 2 weeks. And save a shedload of €€€.

Judging by report of those getting some new 1.2l twin turbo Euro 6 cars, some of which don;t even have the guts to pull away uphill, a hybrid may be the only option in 10 years. Then I'll buy a season ticket.

Thanks for your thoughts. They are not going to be the solution for all trips I accept that and also the comments ref the actual mileage as oppose to advertised, that sounds awful P-Jay and I agree unusable.
I have booked a 7 day test drive of the Leaf in a couple of weeks that coincide with a few days holiday in the Lakes so I will feed back my experience. It will need some planning as the journey is likely going to be the upper end of the max for the battery :-0

Once hybrid cars get GIS route data they'll be able to optimize the mixture of electrical and liquid fuel use.

Currently as the car doesn't know the destination or length of journey it will use the battery from the start until its empty.

A typical drive cycle for a commute is town to open road to town, and back again later that day. It would be better to use the battery during the town driving and use a mixture of fuels whilst on the open road.

It would be better to use the battery during the town driving and use a mixture of fuels whilst on the open road.

The Mitsubishi does allow you to do that.

Toyota made a loss on every one apparently - the batteries were supposed to be where they made the money back.

What? I think you have your facts mixed up. You don't buy the batteries for a Prius - they are designed for the lifetime of the car. You might be thinking of Nissan Leaf or the Renault one?

Mining of the Lithium

The Prius battery is a Nickel one, except for the plug-in version. Again I think you are mixing your facts.

Toyota made a loss on every one apparently

They've sold seven million Priuses. I'm sure they'd have stopped by now. Given your past tense are you sure you're not talking about the electric Rav4 project from years ago?

Once hybrid cars get GIS route data they'll be able to optimize the mixture of electrical and liquid fuel use.

This is being worked on. I think in the Volvo one you can choose to burn through extra battery if you want. I'd love this ability in the Prius because there are regular journeys I do where I know I have to go up a big hill and the battery will recharge on the way down. But I don't have the option to deplete it on the way up.

Still seen the grand total of exactly 0 charging points.

The team Managers at Sly where I used to work all had either Prius's or the early Civic Hybrids.
The Civic's looked like gash and werent great but all those that ran a Prius seemed to really like them.

Never drove one myself but had a good look round them and they appeared to be spacious, well designed and screwed together.

I quite like the look of the Renault Zoe's but you dont see many of them about, Twizzys look great fun but probably not suited to motorways!

Still seen the grand total of exactly 0 charging points.

Must be a UK thing, we were in in Florence last WE, and there were charging points all over the city (and loads of electric cars and bikes using them).

Ikea is generally a place many would like to avoid. And if I drove there to charge up, I'd have depleted the battery by the time I got home. And it's only a 20min drive away.

Will look out for one next time I tank up (both here and back in the UK). Funny that I've never seen one. Maybe they hide them round the back with the car wash or something?

I don't think you will see charging points in petrol stations, they need time to charge. Look in motorway services, superstore car parks and city centres. Places people can leave the car for a short time. I've seen a few in Brighton and other places (maybe Edinburgh?) but didn't pay much attention. I'd soon find out if I had an electric car.

RE Charging points, as others have said Ikea offer them - they'll even give a cup of tea whilst it charges, as do ASDA.

There are a few in Motorway Services - you can use www.zap-map.com to find them all.

This is something I looked at when I was looking at the Leaf - but again it's not exactly straight forward - some are AC some are DC, some are Both, some offer 'fast' charging, some don't.

Some will take a debt card, some you need to be a member - just because someone like Ikea or ASDA have put them in, don't expect them to be free - it's not the cost per-se, it might only be a fiver to "fill" up or something it's actually paying for it - like being in France on a Sunday afternoon 10 years ago you can find yourself, hose in hand shouting at a unmanned station because it won't take cash, or a card and you're stuck there.

Then there's the other problem, these things go unused for days, sometimes weeks - it's not a mainstream thing at the moment - so when they break down, they're not exactly rushing to fix them so you might judder into Ikea - or worse a motorway services only to find it's not working, or more likely some 'individual' has seen these oh so handy spaces near the door empty time after time and decided to park there "because no one ever uses them" and pop in for 5 minutes two hours previously.

I actually stopped in the services in Bridgend a few times when we were considering the Leaf - because a trip from home (Cardiff) to Afan with my bike would mean stopping at least once (probably both ways) to make the trip - I think I stopped about 5 times, twice the bay had someone parked in it and once it was out of order.

Nope

P-Jay I take your point but all of those things are surmountable.
Yes people parking in the bays is an issue but you simply plan your journey and if you need to open an account etc to use a charging bay you overcome that in the same way I have a fast Tag for the Mersey tunnel. Not a major inconvenience once you have done it once.

I'd love this ability in the Prius because there are regular journeys I do where I know I have to go up a big hill and the battery will recharge on the way down. But I don't have the option to deplete it on the way up.

A friend of mine works at a car company and he worked on some software to do something similar to this automatically in a hybrid car.

It it knew there was a downhill approaching where it could charge the battery, but the battery was full, it would switch from engine power to battery power and run down the battery before the downhill so it could recoup the energy on the way down.

Double park and use an extension lead if necessary. I would.

@surfer I agree, nothing that can't be over-come but for my personal circumstances, unless the technology improves they don't work.

They're commuter cars really IMO - if you work less than say 25 miles from home and I think most people do, or even 50 if you can charge in work and use your car for short trips to the shops or whatever else I think they work really well. There's even a lot of other benefits like no congestion charge, no seven bridge toll and even free parking in some places.

The work their best a low speed too, most petrol / diesel cars are most efficient at 50-70mph - but EVs are different, the most efficient speed is 1mph, the faster you go, the more juice it uses so city driving suits them best.

But for me, there's too many potential pit falls in trying to make them long-distance machines, the infrastructure doesn't really work out even on say a 70 mile motorway trip which really isn't huge you'd need to stop once each way, for at least 30 mins, and if for whatever reason you can't charge you're buggered.