[Closed] Hybrid cars

I'd say test drive them. You might get slightly more mpg from a Prius than a small diesel on motorway, you might not. But it's cleaner. Comes down to car choice. Plus you don't have dpf etc worries in a Prius. They also have timing chain rather than belt, which is nice. Cheap to run they are. And auto.

There is a Tesla here in Dunblane, a good looking thing and goes like a rocket...

Its interesting you say that I have a Merc estate 7sp auto. It was an unmissable deal at the time and it is fantastic to drive and the first auto I have ever had. It does makes my travel and commute effortless so that is an important consideration. I will take your advice and drive one.

If I can afford and justify the expense of a Tesla, plus a 200m long cable to dangle out of my bedroom window and half way down the city centre street, then I can afford a small runaround car (for commuting etc.) AND a decent sized SUV/Estate (for trips to mountains etc.) AND have spare money to buy a new fleet of bikes for the shed. Having enough range in the "tank" to be able to drive further than I might ride on one of those bikes on a Sunday afternoon is merely a bonus.
Might look good and go fast, but if I cant actually get to and from work a couple of times, then it's no more practical than a milk float.

A Tesla has a 250 mile range - you must be an amazing cyclist to ride that far on a Sunday afternoon...

You'd have to be very very brave to drive one much more than 100-200 miles.
Extend the range by a factor of 2 by driving home on the back of an AA truck so you can put some more energy back in it.
Still seen the grand total of exactly 0 charging points.

At least a hybrid is really a petrol car (with small diesel economy).

PS if you can afford it, there's a slight facelift Prius in 2012 that gets you better suspension.

Tesla is not a real solution for plenty of reasons. People say 'oh it's a sports car, it's not expensive compared to X and Y' are missing the point. The reason it's a sports car is because the batteries push the price up through the roof, and the only way to make it feasible at all is to take the whole car into the luxury price bracket. It's simply not possible to make a battery powered car with 200 mile range for cheap.

As said - you could easily get a nice diesel or hybrid car for long trips (or hire one) AND get a small town electric car for short range. And have quite a lot of change.

Still seen the grand total of exactly 0 charging points.

I think most, if not all service stations now have them. There are quite a few in London and IKEA also have them!

I've only recently considered a hybrid/electric car but I have seen lots of charging points.
Its a shame I couldn't go fully electric and buy a Nissan Leaf. Once I start my new job I may get them to install a charging point which would make it easy for me to use one daily (there are a couple of high speed charging points en route so with planning and not too much hanging around its doable)
I am still tempted to get one to use for shorter journeys, use my current car when I have to and look to make savings generally by using the "normal" cars less and the Electric car for all of the shorter shops/picking kids up/local sports/evening running around etc. All of those short journey cost alone add up.
They do a 7 day test drive so a good opportunity to test properly before buying.

(there are a couple of high speed charging points en route so with planning and not too much hanging around its doable)

Yes possibly but so far almost every one I have seen has been vacant. May be a problem in future but not something that would concern me at the moment particularly as I intend keeping my petrol car for longer journeys and family trips etc so vast majority of charging would be done at home.

Can't say I noticed any at the weekend (near Heathrow), and certainly didn't notice any when I was in Scotland last (but then got all my fuel from Morrisons, and maybe they don't have charging points).

Germany is far too wedded to diesel. Never seen a charge point here either, but then my usual station is a small 4 pump jobbie.

Only use for a Tesla imho is as a demonstrator that electric isn't milkfloat any more.

And as mentioned above, and in a thread 2 weeks back, plug-in electric only is only of any use to anyone with a 2.1 children semi-detached with a garage and driveway. Until such time as every other parallel parking bay in the city, and significant numbers of municipal multi storey parking bays, and a whole section of Tescos and work carparks have charging points. Unless you live 3 doors down from Esso/Shell and they don't mind you parking there overnight.

New Koenigsegg Regera looks nice, 1500 horsepower and a single-speed gearbox, and a 9.27-kWh capacity.

Manages 22 miles on one charge, is road legal, and half the price of their current non road legal P1.

Only 80 being made so hurry up.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2016-koenigsegg-regera-photos-and-info-news

roffle. with that range, I'll cycle to and from work. probably arrive home sooner 😉

plug-in electric only is only of any use to anyone with a 2.1 children semi-detached with a garage and driveway

Yes but in fairness there are quite a lot of people who do have a driveway and commute less than 20-30 miles to work. It's hardly a niche!

The big issue though is cost. There's a decent market for small urban runabouts, but they need to be cheap - not £25k!

Personally I think one issue that gets glossed over is just how "clean" they REALLY are...
As in total lifespan.
With the batteries, production, shipping, etc - the figures stack massively in favour of a small 1.2-1.4 16V petrol.
There were some tests done a few years back where a 1.4 Polo could be built and then used for about 10yrs and the environmental impact was the same as putting a Prius in the showroom.

Personally I think one issue that gets glossed over is just how "clean" they REALLY are...
As in total lifespan.

Glossed over? No, it's been done to death.

There were some tests done a few years back where a 1.4 Polo could be built and then used for about 10yrs and the environmental impact was the same as putting a Prius in the showroom.

Not sure - got a link? There was a study commissioned by an oil company about 10 years ago saying that Prius was less eco friendly than a hummer, but it was complete bollocks. However it's been quoted around the web for a decade. It suggested the manufacturing cost in energy alone was something like $430k. Er ok, then how can Toyota sell them for $30k?

I'd like to see some real figures (ie not anti marketing bollocks) if you can find some - I couldn't.

There are electric charging points in my local Asia they're full every time I've been in there. Just never with an electric car, just lazy gits as they're near the door and not the disabled or child spaces. I'd love to buy an electric town car but they just don't add up yet unless you've money to burn. I'd take great joy in blocking in the cars in those spaces and running and extension lead over their roofs 😈

The big issue though is cost

the MPG is effectively meaningless when I can get a Petrol Astra (or equivalent) plus 10 years worth of petrol for the price of a plug-in hybrid (and no fuel) that is of similar size and practicality.

The hybridness or electricness needs to pay itself back within a year or 2 (a bit like petrol vs diesel) before I will entertain the idea.

I think the Auris might be getting there?

Prius and Ampera, no. Not even when Gideon gives you 5 grand back, and Boris lets you drive in central London for free.

molgrips - Member
Personally I think one issue that gets glossed over is just how "clean" they REALLY are...
As in total lifespan.
Glossed over? No, it's been done to death.

There were some tests done a few years back where a 1.4 Polo could be built and then used for about 10yrs and the environmental impact was the same as putting a Prius in the showroom.
Not sure - got a link? There was a study commissioned by an oil company about 10 years ago saying that Prius was less eco friendly than a hummer, but it was complete bollocks. However it's been quoted around the web for a decade. It suggested the manufacturing cost in energy alone was something like $430k. Er ok, then how can Toyota sell them for $30k?

I'd like to see some real figures (ie not anti marketing bollocks) if you can find some - I couldn't.

It was one of the german car mags IIRC Mols

A mate was translating it whilst we were over there on bikes.
Toyota made a loss on every one apparently - the batteries were supposed to be where they made the money back.

The main issue was what it took to manufacture and ship the packs.
Mining of the Lithium, etc.
Transport from the US to Japan, production, then the fact that the packs have to be removed, bodies have to be shipped separate to the packs, then reassembled here/US, etc.
That alone makes them massively un-green before they ever turn a wheel.
Hence when the TCOL is calculated they just cant stack up against a small, lightweight, multivalve petrol.

the MPG is effectively meaningless when I can get a Petrol Astra (or equivalent) plus 10 years worth of petrol for the price of a plug-in hybrid (and no fuel) that is of similar size and practicality.

Well it depends on how many miles you are doing and the nature of those miles. If you drive 25 miles to work and back each day then (just day to day running costs) an electric car has to be a good solution. Given the other things that Molly mentioned, automatic, good acceleration and low noise etc add to the practicality. Charging at home each evening would make daily transport costs trivial surely. How can you compare that with a petrol/diesel cost?

Its on my agenda now for various reasons but we have to ask ourselves why (me included) are driving short journeys in larger cars at great expense. Sooner we are all in google cars the better!

@surfer

I almost had a Leaf, I really, really wanted it to work - I spoke to the local dealer who was happy to install a charging point at home for no extra cost, we were going to have one fitted in the office - my commute is only 5 miles, but other owners put me off frankly.

Nissan quoted a range of 120 miles in some things, but 100 in others, even the most hardened Leaf owners said it's 70 if you hypermile like your life depended on it.

I asked about fitting roof racks, or tailgate carrier for bikes and couldn't find an owner who'd done it, but the feeling was it would drastically reduce mileage.

As would living somewhere hilly.

Basically worst case, living in Wales (as I do) and carrying a bike (which I do) the range would likely be sub 30 miles - went through all the different theoretical trips etc and it became clear - for me - it would be completely useless.

For the few trips it was actually suitable for it would be far, far cheaper to use a taxi - honestly £20 a week would cover it easily - the cost to lease / buy a Leaf is £200 so there's no financial saving.

As for environmental savings, it's pointless - yes you save some Co2 and whatever else at the point of use, but of course the power still has to be generated elsewhere and whilst a power station is a lot more efficient than a car, it'll never overcome the cost of actually making the thing.

To my mind it's a very unenviromentally friendly alternative to a bike, bus or taxi.

daily transport costs may be trivial, but the cost that would otherwise have been petrol or diesel has been paid to Toyota or GM up front.

I based my figures on the total number of KM that I put on my car since I bought it, the price of petrol at the time in Germany, and the MPG that my car delivers.

I assumed a total fuel cost of €0.00 for the hybrid (which sways it back to petrol car), and disregarded the fact that a brand new car might have better MPG (which sways it back to petrol). The only thing remaining is petrol prices over the next 10 years (which sways it towards hybrid).

But then if total cost was the only issue, then I'd dump the car, get a season ticket, and rent a car from Avis for the 3 times a year I drive down to the Alps/Dolomites for a week, and the 1 time per year that I drive to Scotland for 2 weeks. And save a shedload of €€€.

Judging by report of those getting some new 1.2l twin turbo Euro 6 cars, some of which don;t even have the guts to pull away uphill, a hybrid may be the only option in 10 years. Then I'll buy a season ticket.

Thanks for your thoughts. They are not going to be the solution for all trips I accept that and also the comments ref the actual mileage as oppose to advertised, that sounds awful P-Jay and I agree unusable.
I have booked a 7 day test drive of the Leaf in a couple of weeks that coincide with a few days holiday in the Lakes so I will feed back my experience. It will need some planning as the journey is likely going to be the upper end of the max for the battery :-0

Once hybrid cars get GIS route data they'll be able to optimize the mixture of electrical and liquid fuel use.

Currently as the car doesn't know the destination or length of journey it will use the battery from the start until its empty.

A typical drive cycle for a commute is town to open road to town, and back again later that day. It would be better to use the battery during the town driving and use a mixture of fuels whilst on the open road.

It would be better to use the battery during the town driving and use a mixture of fuels whilst on the open road.

The Mitsubishi does allow you to do that.

Toyota made a loss on every one apparently - the batteries were supposed to be where they made the money back.

What? I think you have your facts mixed up. You don't buy the batteries for a Prius - they are designed for the lifetime of the car. You might be thinking of Nissan Leaf or the Renault one?

Mining of the Lithium

The Prius battery is a Nickel one, except for the plug-in version. Again I think you are mixing your facts.

Toyota made a loss on every one apparently

They've sold seven million Priuses. I'm sure they'd have stopped by now. Given your past tense are you sure you're not talking about the electric Rav4 project from years ago?

Once hybrid cars get GIS route data they'll be able to optimize the mixture of electrical and liquid fuel use.

This is being worked on. I think in the Volvo one you can choose to burn through extra battery if you want. I'd love this ability in the Prius because there are regular journeys I do where I know I have to go up a big hill and the battery will recharge on the way down. But I don't have the option to deplete it on the way up.

Still seen the grand total of exactly 0 charging points.

The team Managers at Sly where I used to work all had either Prius's or the early Civic Hybrids.
The Civic's looked like gash and werent great but all those that ran a Prius seemed to really like them.

Never drove one myself but had a good look round them and they appeared to be spacious, well designed and screwed together.

I quite like the look of the Renault Zoe's but you dont see many of them about, Twizzys look great fun but probably not suited to motorways!

Still seen the grand total of exactly 0 charging points.

Must be a UK thing, we were in in Florence last WE, and there were charging points all over the city (and loads of electric cars and bikes using them).

Ikea is generally a place many would like to avoid. And if I drove there to charge up, I'd have depleted the battery by the time I got home. And it's only a 20min drive away.

Will look out for one next time I tank up (both here and back in the UK). Funny that I've never seen one. Maybe they hide them round the back with the car wash or something?

I don't think you will see charging points in petrol stations, they need time to charge. Look in motorway services, superstore car parks and city centres. Places people can leave the car for a short time. I've seen a few in Brighton and other places (maybe Edinburgh?) but didn't pay much attention. I'd soon find out if I had an electric car.

RE Charging points, as others have said Ikea offer them - they'll even give a cup of tea whilst it charges, as do ASDA.

There are a few in Motorway Services - you can use www.zap-map.com to find them all.

This is something I looked at when I was looking at the Leaf - but again it's not exactly straight forward - some are AC some are DC, some are Both, some offer 'fast' charging, some don't.

Some will take a debt card, some you need to be a member - just because someone like Ikea or ASDA have put them in, don't expect them to be free - it's not the cost per-se, it might only be a fiver to "fill" up or something it's actually paying for it - like being in France on a Sunday afternoon 10 years ago you can find yourself, hose in hand shouting at a unmanned station because it won't take cash, or a card and you're stuck there.

Then there's the other problem, these things go unused for days, sometimes weeks - it's not a mainstream thing at the moment - so when they break down, they're not exactly rushing to fix them so you might judder into Ikea - or worse a motorway services only to find it's not working, or more likely some 'individual' has seen these oh so handy spaces near the door empty time after time and decided to park there "because no one ever uses them" and pop in for 5 minutes two hours previously.

I actually stopped in the services in Bridgend a few times when we were considering the Leaf - because a trip from home (Cardiff) to Afan with my bike would mean stopping at least once (probably both ways) to make the trip - I think I stopped about 5 times, twice the bay had someone parked in it and once it was out of order.

Nope

P-Jay I take your point but all of those things are surmountable.
Yes people parking in the bays is an issue but you simply plan your journey and if you need to open an account etc to use a charging bay you overcome that in the same way I have a fast Tag for the Mersey tunnel. Not a major inconvenience once you have done it once.

I'd love this ability in the Prius because there are regular journeys I do where I know I have to go up a big hill and the battery will recharge on the way down. But I don't have the option to deplete it on the way up.

A friend of mine works at a car company and he worked on some software to do something similar to this automatically in a hybrid car.

It it knew there was a downhill approaching where it could charge the battery, but the battery was full, it would switch from engine power to battery power and run down the battery before the downhill so it could recoup the energy on the way down.

Double park and use an extension lead if necessary. I would.

@surfer I agree, nothing that can't be over-come but for my personal circumstances, unless the technology improves they don't work.

They're commuter cars really IMO - if you work less than say 25 miles from home and I think most people do, or even 50 if you can charge in work and use your car for short trips to the shops or whatever else I think they work really well. There's even a lot of other benefits like no congestion charge, no seven bridge toll and even free parking in some places.

The work their best a low speed too, most petrol / diesel cars are most efficient at 50-70mph - but EVs are different, the most efficient speed is 1mph, the faster you go, the more juice it uses so city driving suits them best.

But for me, there's too many potential pit falls in trying to make them long-distance machines, the infrastructure doesn't really work out even on say a 70 mile motorway trip which really isn't huge you'd need to stop once each way, for at least 30 mins, and if for whatever reason you can't charge you're buggered.

Just to add - Twizy isn't a car, it's a heavy quadricycle. Crash safety results are...

...interesting.

http://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/safety-campaigns/2014-quadricycles-tests/

TL:DR - would I ****.

Ecotricity have a network of [url= http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/for-the-road/our-electric-highway ]motorway charging points[/url]. I've seen one in use once! I got quite excited about it...

Also, [url= http://directgap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/lithium-new-driving-force.html ]Tesla is investing in a massive battery factory [/url]- it's quite amazing. Range is going up all the time. I think the Teslas are on the cutting edge but the new Leafs are looking at 150 - 200 mile ranges.

just googling around here. seems there is more than I've ever seen, ever, anywhere...

2 bays in the park + ride multi storey near work.
2 bays in the major out of town shopping centre.

I can walk to 4 petrol stations within 5-10minutes of my house.

now when every other bay in those multistoreys are charge enabled, then it's an option. until then, petrol is king.

I totally fit the profile for a plug in hybrid. Most journeys less than 10 miles, plug in opportunity at my most distant office, company car driver. I'll probably save about£1500-2000 per year over the equivalent diesel in tax and fuel. I doubt I would buy one myself though as it still doesn't really stack up yet without the incentive.

My problem is whether to go for the Golf GTE (heart, but would have to take wheels off bikes and a bit small for the family), or Outlander (head: uglier, big, slower but will fit everything life throws inside it).

We had an electric car day at work a couple of years ago. We took out one of this Twizy quadricycles with the express intention of trying to roll it. Didn't manage it.

Rachel

At the moment I work 11 miles away from home. Last night I got home and picked Surfer junior up from work on the way. Then dropped her off at her friends 3 miles away. I took Surfer Junior2 to Rugby and picked him up 12 miles in total all of my driving yesterday could have been done comfortably in an EV. Mrs Surfer works 25 miles away so could do all of her commuting in one and we already have 2 internal combustion engines sitting on the drive for non EV trips.
Having one as an only vehicle would be impractical.

Mrs Surfer is yet to be convinced.

If I could afford one I'd very seriously consider it for a second car. A small one, like a Leaf. Although I'd rather an i3 with the range extender since I tend to take the big car away to work so Mrs Grips might end up stuck or at least inconvenienced somehow.

I am amazed how many charging points are springing up around the highlands - a good few towns and villages on or near a-road routes now have a pair of charging points.

blimey at the price of a Leaf.
€80 a month battery lease might be a clever trick to reduce the initial outlay, but then it makes the monthly ongoing running costs no longer trivial. how many here put 80 quid a month of petrol in that second small cheap runaround car for going to the shops and dropping the kids off at school?

we had a leaf at work and I used to rob it nip home at lunch time with the on-call laptop (safed humping it in a pannier). I'd say it was almost perfect as a city car, it was a great laugh flooring it at the lights...surprisingly quick. if we had the money and needed a 2nd car for local journeys and the wifes laughable 4mile commute I'd get one (of something similar).