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To be fair Binners I was resisting doing that myself 😳
Did you go fag free then Hope you did.
As a manager in the NHS, I must say that while I am disappointed in the contributions are going up and that we're going to have to work longer (although I'll have to work to 65 to get my full pension anyway), I do agree with the principal of average salary over final salary. There are so many examples of senior managers who take directorships for the last couple of years before retirement, boosting their pensions vastly out of proportion to their contribution.
Seems to be a lot of vitriol against public sector workers and the perception that we are all desk based imcompetents. This does nothing except show a quite staggering level of ignorance and is insulting to those who work bloody hard, often in very unpleasant circumstances, far removed from a desk. That is not to say that those in office jobs don't work hard, as I'm sure the vast majority do.
You could easily say that those in the private sector, earning on average a higher salary, are equally lazy and get away with it, or would that upset too many people currently browsing this forum!
I am in agreement that there have to be reforms in pensions but a knee jerk reaction in response to chronic government mismanagement and poor planning over decades is not the answer.
As a little aside to those who say pay and perks are the same if not better in the public sector - in the public sector area in which I'm employed, I have been working alongside similarly qualified people (employed by a private firm) for the past 3 months who's hourly rate is effectively 80% higher than mine. Even taking holidays and benefits into account, that buys an awful lot of private pension.
LHS, what exactly is it you do? You seem to have made a number of fairly sweeping statements that don't ring true with my experience of teaching.I wonder if all the people who think public sector jobs are easy will still feel the same looking after their own kids a couple of extra days a week.After the EIS/ssta ballot on the enforced WTA this week you will get the chance to find out.
The Final Salary Pension for the Public sector needs to stop.
Moving forwards, they all need to go onto Defined Contribution pensions - ie, how much you put in defines what you get out at the end. It's not 'unfair', it's not unreasonable.
It's what the rest of the country has to deal with, because their pensions are not underwritten by the Taxpayer.
Discuss.
[i]It's what the rest of the country has to deal with, because their pensions are not underwritten by the Taxpayer.[/i]
Isn't that part of the tradeoff though for being in the public sector ie. generally speaking you earn less than you can in the private sector so one of the compensations is a good pension plan ?
Certainly used to be as far as i know. It's not a question of the "waking up to the real world", that's just patronising, many people working in the public sector are fully aware of the real world and the wages you can earn in the private sector.
Because of the current economic climate people in the private sector are now crying "unfair" but it never used to be an issue.
For the record i work in private sector and not public.
im a research scientist and after our institute scheme went tits up and i lost the last 8 years contributions (cheers greedy bankers) i was shunted onto the universities scheme which we have just had to increase our contributions to ensure that it stayed final salary.....
balls!
I think public sector pay long since eclipsed average private sector pay in many parts of the country.
The nearest private sector equivalent to my role would be the best part of £10K less than my total salary. I'm clinging on to the gravy train for a while longer!
mean income level anlaysis shows average public sector wages above private sector for a while now (I could totter off to find the graph but cant be arsed)
BUT this is where comrade TJ pipes up to witter about levels of education/professionalism in the public sector being greater than the private sector hence the higher mean wage.
There's plenty of interchangeability in roles between private and public (esp for office work, or non-emergency NHS etc EDIT see BH8 ^ e.g.) to rebut that, but since there's not a clear private market in all public sector roles its going to stay a score draw I guess.
It would be if the first part of your statement were true.mancjon - Member
Isn't that part of the tradeoff though for being in the public sector ie. generally speaking you earn less than you can in the private sector so one of the compensations is a good pension plan ?
the same unions agreed to a worse settlement for my pension scheme
we too could have shut part of the country down with competent representation
any support for their campaign?... absolutely none
had to increase our contributions to ensure that it stayed final salary.....balls!
complaining about having a gold plated pension 🙄
[i]mean income level anlaysis shows average public sector wages above private sector for a while now (I could totter off to find the graph but cant be arsed)[/i]
Bloody hell i've been talking rubbish, most unlike me 😉
i'll get my coat.
but since there's not a clear private market in all public sector roles its going to stay a score draw I guess.
True I suspect there is not much difference and that at the lower end, say a council cleaner gets more than a private cleaner but at the top and accountant gets more privately than publicly
Public sector pay is increasing at a lower rate than inflation. And the gold plated pension might be coming to an end. Cue much gnashing of teeth from the usual suspects. Which really really makes my dick itch!!!
They wouldn't be doing so much bloody moaning if they were actually genuinely exposed to the reality of life in the private sector, as experienced by most people. They've been completely insulated from it.
Over the last few years we've had mass redundancies, renegotiation of contracts/terms and conditions, Pay freezes/sweeping and substantial pay cuts, and a general increase in (already substantial) insecurity. You lot in the public sector are just playing catch up.
If you think that strikes are going to get everyone onside saying 'well done comrades' then you're living in la-la-land!
Aw, looks like that bold brave private sector, y'know, the one that's going to step up and take on the world, is populated by the same old mean spirited small minded little englander types as it always was...
Any time in the last 25 years anyone of you could have chosen to work in the public sector. To whimper and moan about it now makes you look like jealous little girls, upset because your brave new world has fewer sweeties than the next kid.
What you should be looking at is WHY private sector pensions are so bad, and asking why those lovely financial types saw fit to mess with your futures, instead of picking on people who've done you no harm in their working lives.
It's a cliche, but the politics of envy is apt.
Seems to be a lot of vitriol against public sector workers and the perception that we are all desk based imcompetents.
Not all of you. A large enough percentage are utterly idle, ****less, backsliding and workshy enough for the good ones to really shine tho!
People live longer, so pensions pay for longer. Not enough money in the country to support final pay schemes, need to balance what comes in with what goes out. Certainly not rocket science, needed to be done.
[i]Over the last few years we've had mass redundancies, renegotiation of contracts/terms and conditions, Pay freezes/sweeping and substantial pay cuts, and a general increase in (already substantial) insecurity.[/i]
really you think this hasnt been going on in the private sector?????
is populated by the same old mean spirited small minded little englander types as it always was
describes a lot of the public sector to be frank, just always covered by venier of political correctness
£110 pound fine for leaving your wheelie bin out anyone?
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/community/fine_of_up_to_1_000_if_you_leave_your_wheelie_bin_out_too_long_1_3164146
"What you should be looking at is WHY private sector pensions are so bad..."
I have a good idea. Just about the first thing Gordon Brown did as Chancellor was to abolish tax breaks on Dividends, which is estimated to be about £6 Billion out of the Pension pot straight away.
"Aw, looks like that bold brave private sector, y'know, the one that's going to step up and take on the world, is populated by the same old mean spirited small minded little englander types as it always was"
Interesting attitude. It is we who will pay your pension; you should be more grateful.
Sounds to me like our brave little capitalist soldiers are arguing for some kind of equality, some sort of socialism almost...
Anyway, come on down, places available to train you all up as nurses, why its so popular we've had to stop recruiting from abroad.
Anyone could have done it, sour grapes now?
Grateful?
I chose to do this as a job, and I get paid to do it. I honestly never expected to be envied for it.
http://bit.ly/eDIcY8"The average pension paid to a woman [nurse] is less than £4,000 – there is nothing ‘gold plated’ about that figure."- RCN
I have been working alongside similarly qualified people (employed by a private firm) for the past 3 months who's hourly rate is effectively 80% higher than mine. Even taking holidays and benefits into account, that buys an awful lot of private pension.
Indeed, but this is about peoples tax money paying YOUR pension, you are supposed to work for them for f-all and be grateful. Sounds like big society.
What you should be looking at is WHY private sector pensions are so bad, and asking why those lovely financial types saw fit to mess with your futures, instead of picking on people who've done you no harm in their working lives.
Perhaps if some of you grew a backbone instead of accepting worse working conditions year on year, you wouldn't be trying to drag everyone else down to your level in a jealous fit of rage.
Britain: Used to be great, but now seems to be full of the meek. But I'd expect nothing less from the group of individuals known as the middle class.
Just some figures, as of the end of 2009 (latest figures I could find)
Current Public Pension Liabilities £1.177 Billion (that's nearly £20k per person in the UK)
85% yes eighty five! of our GDP.
Yet some still want to argue that this is ok and can continue?
Who will be paying for that? That's right, your kids, their kids and possibly their kids too.
[i]really you think this hasn't been
going on in the private sector?????[/i]
think that was his point, ie. this was what has happened in the private sector.
[i]Interesting attitude. It is we who will pay your pension; you should be more grateful. [/i]
Grateful - exactly why should a nurse/policeman etc. be grateful to you when they provide a much needed service.
I have worked in both public and private sector and it never ceases to amaze me when people always bang on about lazy, incompetent public workers as though these sort of people never exist in the private sector and the private sector is a model of efficiency.
Interesting attitude. It is we who will pay your pension; you should be more grateful.
Aye but be careful;it is me who educates your children so they can get a well-paid job and pay more tax to support my "huge" pension.Any more pish from you laddie and I will let them watch dvds 24/7
I was going to post a reply but I suspect it would turn into a vitriolic tirade against the employees in the private sector that clearly have no idea how hard my staff and my colleagues work in our part of the public sector!
Scott CheggIt is we who will pay your pension; you should be more grateful.
That's right, because it's only the private sector who ever pay tax, NI, and pension contributions isn't it.
Nugget.
ziggy - that is simple nonsense. That liability is the entire future liabilty - ie over 50+ years. So actually the liability each year is 2% of that. And it also ignores the increased contributions that most of us are making.
That is simply one of the false sets of figures used to create the moral panic over this
Overall its a good thing and long overdue but it does seem logical that wages will have to rise to reflect loss of such a valuable benefit.
I don't think the 'race to bottom' argument works becuase most firms in the private sector can't see far enough into the future to take on the 40-60 year liability that a final salary pension is.
You also end up with the silly situation that some companies' pension funds are bigger / worth more than the company itself (British Steel, BT, GPO etc).
breakneckspeed - Member"The average pension paid to a woman [nurse] is less than £4,000 – there is nothing ‘gold plated’ about that figure."- RCN
http://bit.ly/eDIcY8
shame they don't say how long they were employed to get that benefit
also from same source
“There is a risk under this proposal that there may be an exodus of hard-working staff before the normal pension age is increased to 65. These departures would have a significant effect on patient services and those NHS staff left behind to deliver patient care.
aha, that will help reduce unemployment won't it
Agreed.That is simply one of the false sets of figures used to create the moral panic over this
However look at our American or Canadian counterparts who have liabilities of 26% and 27% of their GDP.
AS A civil servant we have always been told in my department, the reason our pay is low is because of the value of the pension. ie low pay but good pension. The pension has always been factored into the pay negotiations. Now it seems we are told it's low pay and a crap pension. Ok - now pay me the going rate for the job then.( You should note that when the minumum wage legislation came into effect my department had to raise its wages so not to fall foul of the law) At the moment the civil service is paying more in as contributions than its paying out in pensions.
We have the problem in our brigade that due to govt cuts we plan on closing 12 stations and reduce manning on 10 others but this causes more problems as they are then even less people contributing to the pension pot , that and lack of cover but since govt have scrapped attendance times that apparently doesn't matter 🙁 but that's a whole other matter
So anyway been busy working all day what did the private sector hard working folk of singletrack towers decide whilst I was working?
In summary, that all public sector workers are lazy, idle and had it coming to them ! (or something along those lines)
In summary, that all public sector workers are lazy, idle and had it coming to them ! (or something along those lines)
I love this place, so many people able to spend all day on the interweb moaning about how lazy another load of people are most of whom they have no experience of.
Oh well hope they have good child minders booked!!
A.A are you up here in Gods country? If not, how are your authorities saving money?
Nope I'm down in the shitty south, TA's leaving are not being replaced but no redundancies as yet. I expect a few members of SLT are feeling a bit nervous though as the school has to save £100 000 next year and thats not going to be done by loosing a few part time teaching assistants.
I love the concise, well stated arguments on the TUC site linked above:
The pension schemes are already sustainable
Well, that's me told then, can't argue with detail and figures like that. 🙄
I love the concise, well stated arguments on the TUC site linked above:The pension schemes are already sustainable
I would also love to see where they ahave managed to create a new final salary scheme anywhere
this amused me
A.A; we are (as well as 15% more for 10% less pension at 67)
Phased end of conserved salary,90% SSP,Probationers at 0.9 of full timetable, all supply paid at lowest scale for first 8 days.10% of SSA to go.No cost of living raise last year,this year,or next two.Chartered closed and finished
That is the take it or leave it offer from COSLA."In return for certain,as yet unspecified guarantees on job and staffing levels" this is what they are imposing without any debate. Looks like we will be out in 6 months. 🙁
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/10/public-sector-pension-reform?commentpage=2#start-of-comments ]Simon Jenkins can hardly contain his delight.[/url]
im sure the cabinet of millionaires are all very excited
it means that all their chums in the private sector will find it that much easier to move in and **** over their employees in the newly privatised NHS