[Closed] Hutton

Tsk, pesky New Labour politicians sticking their noses in....

work for longer, pay in more, get less out

awesome 😐

Can't wait as I pay 11% now and its going up to 14% already before this review 🙁

Its about time the playing field was levelled. Good on him.

Can't help thinking that people paying, over the course of their working lives, the full cost of the benefits they receive once they retire isn't an unfair thing?

I work in the public sector and pay 11% and it is a big hit already so paying in more would be hard on the pocket. What's needed is for all public sector workers to stand together and consider action and in the space of half a day we could bring the uk to it's knees. Then we will see how badly the government wants to take advice off these fuds like Hutton. Wonder what he gets paid?

What's needed is for all public sector workers to stand together and consider action and in the space of half a day we could bring the uk to it's knees

genius, and you wonder why the private sector workers have no sympathy for you?

Welcome to the real world folks (our ex-CS pension got changed onto something very close to the Hutton terms a few years ago - it's still actually pretty good compared to private sector standards).

The main problem is that the current system is unaffordable. We need to look at different alternatives - Hutton is one of them. Like most people I have only seen the headlines and not the details. There does need to be a link between the amount you save and the benefits you receive. The state needs to ensure that everyone receives a minimum level, but we should reward those who plan for their future

I'm sure I'll feel the same when your bins don't get emptied, your house is getting screwed by a local yob and they are riding your fav bike away down the street after setting your shed on fire with no one to put it out. (nothing personal, but what in theory could happen)

It is unfair to assume that you will on average get paid more, work less and retire on more than someone on a comparable job in the private sector.

I'm sure I'll feel the same when your bins don't get emptied, your house is getting screwed by a local yob and they are riding your fav bike away down the street after setting your shed on fire with no one to put it out. (nothing personal, but what in theory could happen)

Why oh why oh why isn't TJ here. We need some unbiased, well thought out arguments to balance out the negative postings above 😉

[i]What in theory could happen if you all decide to be selfish ****s and go on strike. You're not really winning any friends with threats like that![/i]

Given that the 'friends' will make f all difference to the outcome of pension reform if they didn't strike, I don't think they'll be too concerned.

lhs - what drivel

public sector workers get paid less when you actually look at comparable roles

Most of our pensions are quite affordable as most have been reviewed already anyway

this is propaganda driven exercise in the politics of envy. instead of attacking what is a modest pension for the public sector you should be agitating for decent pensions fr the private sector

private sector pension provision is awful. if you want to see the other side of this read the stuff on the tuc site its a good alternative take. don't be sucked in by the tory propaganda keep an open and sceptical mind

http://www.tuc.org.uk/economy/tuc-19288-f0.cfm

public sector workers get paid less when you actually look at comparable roles

Nonsense.

Oh and for the record, I pretty much despise the tories, but this is definitly one of the better decisions they are making. Welcome to the real world.

[i]Oh and for the record, I pretty much despise the tories, but this is definitly one of the better decisions they are making.[/i]

They haven't made any decision.
It's a report by a labour peer.
But apart from that, spot on 🙂

LHS - actually that is the truth. You usually are good at seeing thru the propaganda.

The figures that are used to espouse that public sector workers get paid more are a simple gross comparison. when you actually look at roles of similar experience, qualifications and skills then youu find the private sector are paid more.

http://opinion.publicfinance.co.uk/2010/01/public-vs-private-pay-no-comparison/

TandemJeremy - Member

lhs - what drivel

Yay! Knew I could count on you TJ 🙂

It's a report by a labour peer.
But apart from that, spot on

Lord Hutton, a former Labour pensions minister, was asked by the coalition government to conduct a review of public service pensions soon after it was elected last year.

Move along! 🙄

LHS -0 so you think a race to the bottom is good? You do realise that there won't be any significant savings as most public sector pensioners hardly get above benefit levels so all this is going to do is make them reliant on benefits instead.

Really - I thought you would have seen thru the tory poropagnada. - its so obvious and unsubtle

step one - creat a moral panic " public sector pensions will eat your children"
Step 2 - get your friends in the tory press to keep repeating this and provide them with incredibly poor and distorted figures to use to back it up
step 3 - create the enemy within - "union bosses will eat your children"
step 4 - cut the pension, wages and working conditions of a despised sector of the workforce
Step 6 - bask in the favourable publicity from your tory friends

LHS - actually that is the truth

I've read that article and wasn't convinced then, they don't take into account pension contributions, pension schemes, overtime, retirement age.

Step 7 - witness friends and colleagues who have moved from the private sector to the public sector and marvelled at the pay rises, pensions, benefits and retirement age coupled with a much more laid back work ethic.

LHS -0 so you think a race to the bottom is good

Nice quote from today news, but he has already rejected that this is the plan.

LHS - have a browse around the stuff on the tuc site. I am not claiming its anything but propaganda but its good to see the other side of the story that does not usually see the light of day -

LHS - have a browse around the stuff on the tuc site.

I'd rather stick knitting needles down my tear-ducts to be honest.

Thing that bothers me personally is that our new scheme is 40 years of paying 14%, now I can't afford to pay any more tbh but I on the other hand can't see me firefighting at over 60+. I can imagine the faces on people when four 60+ year old blokes (edit ... or women) hobble out the fire engine lol

I used to be in the army too and I wouldn't be up to section attacks at 55 either

Well what will be will be I guess

So you want to make your mind up based on only reading one side of the argument? No wonder you have got this so wrong.

Most unlike you. Normally you like to see thru the myths and propaganda.

While I partially agree with TJ that there's some hype (well it's politics isn't it - both sides are guilty here), LHS does have a point with this:

Step 7 - witness friends and colleagues who have moved from the private sector to the public sector and marvelled at the pay rises, pensions, benefits and retirement age coupled with a much more laid back work ethic.

I've yet to hear anyone I've actually met who's gone private to public sector not say something similar. Not 'proof' per se but I think this is a large part of the reason that people are perfectly happy to believe that public sector benefit cuts are in order rather than TJ's rather patronising view that it's all because that's what we're told by the horrible Tory-biased media.

Most unlike you. Normally you like to see thru the myths and propaganda.

Thanks, but I have spent many dinner parties having this same debate with friends and family members so I have definitly seen and listened to both sides of the story.

Lets agree to disagree.

The army in 20 years time.
[img] [/img]

public sector workers get paid less when you actually look at comparable roles

Nonsense.

You have a powerful use of logic and reason there .....devestating powerful counter point- glad you did not go OTT with facts or anything else inconvenient like that and refused to read other sources of information

I actually think that the tories don't realise just what a can of worms they are a opening up.

Of course most public sector workers are not tory voters and they can demonise the public sector to their core vote - but the strife this will create along with the general cuts will be something to behold - I really doubt the Lib Dems will be able to stomach it and the coalition will collapse.

You have a powerful use of logic and reason there .....devestating powerful counter point- glad you did not go OTT with facts or anything else inconvenient like that and refused to read other sources of information

You sound like a lot of fun.

There is a perception that All public sectors workers are lazy and the private sector is all that is great about hard work and endeavour. Are we really suggesting coppers, refuse collectors, nurses , teachers don’t actually work very hard then? Are we also saying no one in the private sector is lazy and does the bare minimum required?
Clearly both sectors will have a number of people who do very little. To argue otherwise is to let your politics go before reality

TJ - private sector pensions have spent the past ten years going through similar changes - the reality is that people live longer and the funds need sufficient income to pay out for peoples expected life spans.

It's simple maths - if my generation are going to live 5 years longer than than my fathers then I need to either pay in for longer, pay in more or do a bit of both. What I can't expect is to pay in the same amount as he did and expect more benefits.

well i can back up an argument with something more than one word hyperbole. Thanks for an ad hominem retort - you seem really nice now obviously 🙄

Hi TJ *waves*

I've missed you

Of course most public sector workers* are not tory voters

* the word worker is used figuratively in this context, and may or may not involve the doing of any actual 'work'

Maybe those of us in the private sector, who work with civil servants and experience on a daily basis their sloth like incomeptance, fuelled generally by lunchtime drinking and a 5 hour working day, will come out on a counter demo demanding that they get the **** back to work and shut up.

Maybe those of us in the private sector, who work with civil servants and experience on a daily basis their sloth like incomeptance, fuel generally by lunchtime drinking and a 5 hour working day will come out on a counter demo demanding that they get the **** back to work and shut up.

Tries not to laugh.

well i can back up an argument with something more than one word hyperbole

Must have missed that, just like you missed me stating that the facts and figures don't take into account retirement age, pensions, overtime and total benefits.

perhaps you need to understand the difference between can and have?
EDIT: Shall we just stop now and let the usual suspect argue about this?

It should have been done years ago but labour didn't have the bottle to do it. I pay 25% of my salary into my pension and my pension is at the whim of the stock market, so who knows what I'll get. Most final salary pension schemes in the private sector have gone as they aren't affordable, even the ones in my company which was meant to be untouchable (ex ICI).

So how can you expect to pay 11% of your salary into a scheme so over your working life, so whats that about 5 years salary over 45 years and then expect to get a guaranteed proportion of your [b]Final Salary[/b] for the next 20 years with me paying the bill whilst I'm paying 25% to get a significantly lower proportion of my final salary, I'm about as far as you can get from a Tory but some people need to get back on the real world.

I doubt they'll be much sympathy from the most people in the private sector as they feel the same as me.

Shall we just stop now and let the usual suspect argue about this?

You mean should we all hold TJ's hand and inform him in softly spoken tones that this isn't a socialist utopia after all. Gordon didn't build Nirvana. No matter what Polly Toynbee and Alex Salmond have repeatedly assured him.

Its a big howwid howwid old nasty world out there. And there are bad people, and everything. Its just that some of us have experienced the reality before (see reference to 25% pension payments) and some of us have just arrived, blinking into the sunlight like a new-born kitten

Then he can put his fingers in his ears, shout NAH-NAH-NAH-NOT LISTENING!!!!! and make up some statistics 😀

Tis funny that were I to complain that someone in the private sector was getting paid lots more than me, I would be accused of being envious, and be told to go out, work harder and get a better job. Yet for the heinous crime of going to work for the last 25 years, I'm now public enemy number one and my pension is seen as an essentially wasteful and evil thing which must be clawed back.

No mention of the idea that to get and keep the bestest bankers in the country, we have to pay them in sacks of gold, and bail out each private enterprise that has become 'too important' to allow to fail.

Also funny that despite the 'massive' salary I get, and the huge 'gold plated' pension, no-one appears to be queueing up to do my job, it's not seen as a desirable career option because everyone wants to be a high flying city boy.

Hey ho, and to think that Vodafone pay less tax than me too...

Speaking as an NHS grunt, I'll take my lead from the bankers.

I'd rather shift my money into retrobike tat than be screwed over by the pensions industry, tbh - at least Deore XT thumbies have increased in value.

I'm most disappointed.

I saw a bit about the Hutton report on BBC Breakfast this morning and bet myself £5 that the ensuing STW thread would mention "ideology" in the first page.