[Closed] Hutton

Tsk, pesky New Labour politicians sticking their noses in....

work for longer, pay in more, get less out

awesome 😐

Can't wait as I pay 11% now and its going up to 14% already before this review 🙁

Its about time the playing field was levelled. Good on him.

Can't help thinking that people paying, over the course of their working lives, the full cost of the benefits they receive once they retire isn't an unfair thing?

I work in the public sector and pay 11% and it is a big hit already so paying in more would be hard on the pocket. What's needed is for all public sector workers to stand together and consider action and in the space of half a day we could bring the uk to it's knees. Then we will see how badly the government wants to take advice off these fuds like Hutton. Wonder what he gets paid?

What's needed is for all public sector workers to stand together and consider action and in the space of half a day we could bring the uk to it's knees

genius, and you wonder why the private sector workers have no sympathy for you?

Welcome to the real world folks (our ex-CS pension got changed onto something very close to the Hutton terms a few years ago - it's still actually pretty good compared to private sector standards).

The main problem is that the current system is unaffordable. We need to look at different alternatives - Hutton is one of them. Like most people I have only seen the headlines and not the details. There does need to be a link between the amount you save and the benefits you receive. The state needs to ensure that everyone receives a minimum level, but we should reward those who plan for their future

I'm sure I'll feel the same when your bins don't get emptied, your house is getting screwed by a local yob and they are riding your fav bike away down the street after setting your shed on fire with no one to put it out. (nothing personal, but what in theory could happen)

It is unfair to assume that you will on average get paid more, work less and retire on more than someone on a comparable job in the private sector.

I'm sure I'll feel the same when your bins don't get emptied, your house is getting screwed by a local yob and they are riding your fav bike away down the street after setting your shed on fire with no one to put it out. (nothing personal, but what in theory could happen)

Why oh why oh why isn't TJ here. We need some unbiased, well thought out arguments to balance out the negative postings above 😉

[i]What in theory could happen if you all decide to be selfish ****s and go on strike. You're not really winning any friends with threats like that![/i]

Given that the 'friends' will make f all difference to the outcome of pension reform if they didn't strike, I don't think they'll be too concerned.

lhs - what drivel

public sector workers get paid less when you actually look at comparable roles

Most of our pensions are quite affordable as most have been reviewed already anyway

this is propaganda driven exercise in the politics of envy. instead of attacking what is a modest pension for the public sector you should be agitating for decent pensions fr the private sector

private sector pension provision is awful. if you want to see the other side of this read the stuff on the tuc site its a good alternative take. don't be sucked in by the tory propaganda keep an open and sceptical mind

http://www.tuc.org.uk/economy/tuc-19288-f0.cfm

public sector workers get paid less when you actually look at comparable roles

Nonsense.

Oh and for the record, I pretty much despise the tories, but this is definitly one of the better decisions they are making. Welcome to the real world.

[i]Oh and for the record, I pretty much despise the tories, but this is definitly one of the better decisions they are making.[/i]

They haven't made any decision.
It's a report by a labour peer.
But apart from that, spot on 🙂

LHS - actually that is the truth. You usually are good at seeing thru the propaganda.

The figures that are used to espouse that public sector workers get paid more are a simple gross comparison. when you actually look at roles of similar experience, qualifications and skills then youu find the private sector are paid more.

http://opinion.publicfinance.co.uk/2010/01/public-vs-private-pay-no-comparison/

TandemJeremy - Member

lhs - what drivel

Yay! Knew I could count on you TJ 🙂

It's a report by a labour peer.
But apart from that, spot on

Lord Hutton, a former Labour pensions minister, was asked by the coalition government to conduct a review of public service pensions soon after it was elected last year.

Move along! 🙄

LHS -0 so you think a race to the bottom is good? You do realise that there won't be any significant savings as most public sector pensioners hardly get above benefit levels so all this is going to do is make them reliant on benefits instead.

Really - I thought you would have seen thru the tory poropagnada. - its so obvious and unsubtle

step one - creat a moral panic " public sector pensions will eat your children"
Step 2 - get your friends in the tory press to keep repeating this and provide them with incredibly poor and distorted figures to use to back it up
step 3 - create the enemy within - "union bosses will eat your children"
step 4 - cut the pension, wages and working conditions of a despised sector of the workforce
Step 6 - bask in the favourable publicity from your tory friends

LHS - actually that is the truth

I've read that article and wasn't convinced then, they don't take into account pension contributions, pension schemes, overtime, retirement age.

Step 7 - witness friends and colleagues who have moved from the private sector to the public sector and marvelled at the pay rises, pensions, benefits and retirement age coupled with a much more laid back work ethic.

LHS -0 so you think a race to the bottom is good

Nice quote from today news, but he has already rejected that this is the plan.

LHS - have a browse around the stuff on the tuc site. I am not claiming its anything but propaganda but its good to see the other side of the story that does not usually see the light of day -

LHS - have a browse around the stuff on the tuc site.

I'd rather stick knitting needles down my tear-ducts to be honest.

Thing that bothers me personally is that our new scheme is 40 years of paying 14%, now I can't afford to pay any more tbh but I on the other hand can't see me firefighting at over 60+. I can imagine the faces on people when four 60+ year old blokes (edit ... or women) hobble out the fire engine lol

I used to be in the army too and I wouldn't be up to section attacks at 55 either

Well what will be will be I guess

So you want to make your mind up based on only reading one side of the argument? No wonder you have got this so wrong.

Most unlike you. Normally you like to see thru the myths and propaganda.

While I partially agree with TJ that there's some hype (well it's politics isn't it - both sides are guilty here), LHS does have a point with this:

Step 7 - witness friends and colleagues who have moved from the private sector to the public sector and marvelled at the pay rises, pensions, benefits and retirement age coupled with a much more laid back work ethic.

I've yet to hear anyone I've actually met who's gone private to public sector not say something similar. Not 'proof' per se but I think this is a large part of the reason that people are perfectly happy to believe that public sector benefit cuts are in order rather than TJ's rather patronising view that it's all because that's what we're told by the horrible Tory-biased media.

Most unlike you. Normally you like to see thru the myths and propaganda.

Thanks, but I have spent many dinner parties having this same debate with friends and family members so I have definitly seen and listened to both sides of the story.

Lets agree to disagree.

The army in 20 years time.
[img] [/img]

public sector workers get paid less when you actually look at comparable roles

Nonsense.

You have a powerful use of logic and reason there .....devestating powerful counter point- glad you did not go OTT with facts or anything else inconvenient like that and refused to read other sources of information

I actually think that the tories don't realise just what a can of worms they are a opening up.

Of course most public sector workers are not tory voters and they can demonise the public sector to their core vote - but the strife this will create along with the general cuts will be something to behold - I really doubt the Lib Dems will be able to stomach it and the coalition will collapse.

You have a powerful use of logic and reason there .....devestating powerful counter point- glad you did not go OTT with facts or anything else inconvenient like that and refused to read other sources of information

You sound like a lot of fun.

There is a perception that All public sectors workers are lazy and the private sector is all that is great about hard work and endeavour. Are we really suggesting coppers, refuse collectors, nurses , teachers don’t actually work very hard then? Are we also saying no one in the private sector is lazy and does the bare minimum required?
Clearly both sectors will have a number of people who do very little. To argue otherwise is to let your politics go before reality

TJ - private sector pensions have spent the past ten years going through similar changes - the reality is that people live longer and the funds need sufficient income to pay out for peoples expected life spans.

It's simple maths - if my generation are going to live 5 years longer than than my fathers then I need to either pay in for longer, pay in more or do a bit of both. What I can't expect is to pay in the same amount as he did and expect more benefits.

well i can back up an argument with something more than one word hyperbole. Thanks for an ad hominem retort - you seem really nice now obviously 🙄

Hi TJ *waves*

I've missed you

Of course most public sector workers* are not tory voters

* the word worker is used figuratively in this context, and may or may not involve the doing of any actual 'work'

Maybe those of us in the private sector, who work with civil servants and experience on a daily basis their sloth like incomeptance, fuelled generally by lunchtime drinking and a 5 hour working day, will come out on a counter demo demanding that they get the **** back to work and shut up.

Maybe those of us in the private sector, who work with civil servants and experience on a daily basis their sloth like incomeptance, fuel generally by lunchtime drinking and a 5 hour working day will come out on a counter demo demanding that they get the **** back to work and shut up.

Tries not to laugh.

well i can back up an argument with something more than one word hyperbole

Must have missed that, just like you missed me stating that the facts and figures don't take into account retirement age, pensions, overtime and total benefits.

perhaps you need to understand the difference between can and have?
EDIT: Shall we just stop now and let the usual suspect argue about this?

It should have been done years ago but labour didn't have the bottle to do it. I pay 25% of my salary into my pension and my pension is at the whim of the stock market, so who knows what I'll get. Most final salary pension schemes in the private sector have gone as they aren't affordable, even the ones in my company which was meant to be untouchable (ex ICI).

So how can you expect to pay 11% of your salary into a scheme so over your working life, so whats that about 5 years salary over 45 years and then expect to get a guaranteed proportion of your [b]Final Salary[/b] for the next 20 years with me paying the bill whilst I'm paying 25% to get a significantly lower proportion of my final salary, I'm about as far as you can get from a Tory but some people need to get back on the real world.

I doubt they'll be much sympathy from the most people in the private sector as they feel the same as me.

Shall we just stop now and let the usual suspect argue about this?

You mean should we all hold TJ's hand and inform him in softly spoken tones that this isn't a socialist utopia after all. Gordon didn't build Nirvana. No matter what Polly Toynbee and Alex Salmond have repeatedly assured him.

Its a big howwid howwid old nasty world out there. And there are bad people, and everything. Its just that some of us have experienced the reality before (see reference to 25% pension payments) and some of us have just arrived, blinking into the sunlight like a new-born kitten

Then he can put his fingers in his ears, shout NAH-NAH-NAH-NOT LISTENING!!!!! and make up some statistics 😀

Tis funny that were I to complain that someone in the private sector was getting paid lots more than me, I would be accused of being envious, and be told to go out, work harder and get a better job. Yet for the heinous crime of going to work for the last 25 years, I'm now public enemy number one and my pension is seen as an essentially wasteful and evil thing which must be clawed back.

No mention of the idea that to get and keep the bestest bankers in the country, we have to pay them in sacks of gold, and bail out each private enterprise that has become 'too important' to allow to fail.

Also funny that despite the 'massive' salary I get, and the huge 'gold plated' pension, no-one appears to be queueing up to do my job, it's not seen as a desirable career option because everyone wants to be a high flying city boy.

Hey ho, and to think that Vodafone pay less tax than me too...

Speaking as an NHS grunt, I'll take my lead from the bankers.

I'd rather shift my money into retrobike tat than be screwed over by the pensions industry, tbh - at least Deore XT thumbies have increased in value.

I'm most disappointed.

I saw a bit about the Hutton report on BBC Breakfast this morning and bet myself £5 that the ensuing STW thread would mention "ideology" in the first page.

To be fair Binners I was resisting doing that myself 😳
Did you go fag free then Hope you did.

As a manager in the NHS, I must say that while I am disappointed in the contributions are going up and that we're going to have to work longer (although I'll have to work to 65 to get my full pension anyway), I do agree with the principal of average salary over final salary. There are so many examples of senior managers who take directorships for the last couple of years before retirement, boosting their pensions vastly out of proportion to their contribution.

Seems to be a lot of vitriol against public sector workers and the perception that we are all desk based imcompetents. This does nothing except show a quite staggering level of ignorance and is insulting to those who work bloody hard, often in very unpleasant circumstances, far removed from a desk. That is not to say that those in office jobs don't work hard, as I'm sure the vast majority do.

You could easily say that those in the private sector, earning on average a higher salary, are equally lazy and get away with it, or would that upset too many people currently browsing this forum!

I am in agreement that there have to be reforms in pensions but a knee jerk reaction in response to chronic government mismanagement and poor planning over decades is not the answer.

As a little aside to those who say pay and perks are the same if not better in the public sector - in the public sector area in which I'm employed, I have been working alongside similarly qualified people (employed by a private firm) for the past 3 months who's hourly rate is effectively 80% higher than mine. Even taking holidays and benefits into account, that buys an awful lot of private pension.

LHS, what exactly is it you do? You seem to have made a number of fairly sweeping statements that don't ring true with my experience of teaching.I wonder if all the people who think public sector jobs are easy will still feel the same looking after their own kids a couple of extra days a week.After the EIS/ssta ballot on the enforced WTA this week you will get the chance to find out.

The Final Salary Pension for the Public sector needs to stop.

Moving forwards, they all need to go onto Defined Contribution pensions - ie, how much you put in defines what you get out at the end. It's not 'unfair', it's not unreasonable.

It's what the rest of the country has to deal with, because their pensions are not underwritten by the Taxpayer.

Discuss.

[i]It's what the rest of the country has to deal with, because their pensions are not underwritten by the Taxpayer.[/i]

Isn't that part of the tradeoff though for being in the public sector ie. generally speaking you earn less than you can in the private sector so one of the compensations is a good pension plan ?

Certainly used to be as far as i know. It's not a question of the "waking up to the real world", that's just patronising, many people working in the public sector are fully aware of the real world and the wages you can earn in the private sector.

Because of the current economic climate people in the private sector are now crying "unfair" but it never used to be an issue.

For the record i work in private sector and not public.

im a research scientist and after our institute scheme went tits up and i lost the last 8 years contributions (cheers greedy bankers) i was shunted onto the universities scheme which we have just had to increase our contributions to ensure that it stayed final salary.....

balls!

I think public sector pay long since eclipsed average private sector pay in many parts of the country.

The nearest private sector equivalent to my role would be the best part of £10K less than my total salary. I'm clinging on to the gravy train for a while longer!

mean income level anlaysis shows average public sector wages above private sector for a while now (I could totter off to find the graph but cant be arsed)

BUT this is where comrade TJ pipes up to witter about levels of education/professionalism in the public sector being greater than the private sector hence the higher mean wage.

There's plenty of interchangeability in roles between private and public (esp for office work, or non-emergency NHS etc EDIT see BH8 ^ e.g.) to rebut that, but since there's not a clear private market in all public sector roles its going to stay a score draw I guess.

mancjon - Member
Isn't that part of the tradeoff though for being in the public sector ie. generally speaking you earn less than you can in the private sector so one of the compensations is a good pension plan ?

the same unions agreed to a worse settlement for my pension scheme

we too could have shut part of the country down with competent representation

any support for their campaign?... absolutely none

had to increase our contributions to ensure that it stayed final salary.....

balls!

complaining about having a gold plated pension 🙄

[i]mean income level anlaysis shows average public sector wages above private sector for a while now (I could totter off to find the graph but cant be arsed)[/i]

Bloody hell i've been talking rubbish, most unlike me 😉

i'll get my coat.

but since there's not a clear private market in all public sector roles its going to stay a score draw I guess.

True I suspect there is not much difference and that at the lower end, say a council cleaner gets more than a private cleaner but at the top and accountant gets more privately than publicly

Public sector pay is increasing at a lower rate than inflation. And the gold plated pension might be coming to an end. Cue much gnashing of teeth from the usual suspects. Which really really makes my dick itch!!!

They wouldn't be doing so much bloody moaning if they were actually genuinely exposed to the reality of life in the private sector, as experienced by most people. They've been completely insulated from it.

Over the last few years we've had mass redundancies, renegotiation of contracts/terms and conditions, Pay freezes/sweeping and substantial pay cuts, and a general increase in (already substantial) insecurity. You lot in the public sector are just playing catch up.

If you think that strikes are going to get everyone onside saying 'well done comrades' then you're living in la-la-land!

Aw, looks like that bold brave private sector, y'know, the one that's going to step up and take on the world, is populated by the same old mean spirited small minded little englander types as it always was...

Any time in the last 25 years anyone of you could have chosen to work in the public sector. To whimper and moan about it now makes you look like jealous little girls, upset because your brave new world has fewer sweeties than the next kid.

What you should be looking at is WHY private sector pensions are so bad, and asking why those lovely financial types saw fit to mess with your futures, instead of picking on people who've done you no harm in their working lives.

It's a cliche, but the politics of envy is apt.

Seems to be a lot of vitriol against public sector workers and the perception that we are all desk based imcompetents.

Not all of you. A large enough percentage are utterly idle, ****less, backsliding and workshy enough for the good ones to really shine tho!

People live longer, so pensions pay for longer. Not enough money in the country to support final pay schemes, need to balance what comes in with what goes out. Certainly not rocket science, needed to be done.

[i]Over the last few years we've had mass redundancies, renegotiation of contracts/terms and conditions, Pay freezes/sweeping and substantial pay cuts, and a general increase in (already substantial) insecurity.[/i]

really you think this hasnt been going on in the private sector?????

is populated by the same old mean spirited small minded little englander types as it always was

describes a lot of the public sector to be frank, just always covered by venier of political correctness

£110 pound fine for leaving your wheelie bin out anyone?
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/community/fine_of_up_to_1_000_if_you_leave_your_wheelie_bin_out_too_long_1_3164146

"What you should be looking at is WHY private sector pensions are so bad..."

I have a good idea. Just about the first thing Gordon Brown did as Chancellor was to abolish tax breaks on Dividends, which is estimated to be about £6 Billion out of the Pension pot straight away.

"Aw, looks like that bold brave private sector, y'know, the one that's going to step up and take on the world, is populated by the same old mean spirited small minded little englander types as it always was"

Interesting attitude. It is we who will pay your pension; you should be more grateful.

Sounds to me like our brave little capitalist soldiers are arguing for some kind of equality, some sort of socialism almost...

Anyway, come on down, places available to train you all up as nurses, why its so popular we've had to stop recruiting from abroad.

Anyone could have done it, sour grapes now?

Grateful?

I chose to do this as a job, and I get paid to do it. I honestly never expected to be envied for it.

"The average pension paid to a woman [nurse] is less than £4,000 – there is nothing ‘gold plated’ about that figure."- RCN

I have been working alongside similarly qualified people (employed by a private firm) for the past 3 months who's hourly rate is effectively 80% higher than mine. Even taking holidays and benefits into account, that buys an awful lot of private pension.

Indeed, but this is about peoples tax money paying YOUR pension, you are supposed to work for them for f-all and be grateful. Sounds like big society.

What you should be looking at is WHY private sector pensions are so bad, and asking why those lovely financial types saw fit to mess with your futures, instead of picking on people who've done you no harm in their working lives.

Perhaps if some of you grew a backbone instead of accepting worse working conditions year on year, you wouldn't be trying to drag everyone else down to your level in a jealous fit of rage.

Britain: Used to be great, but now seems to be full of the meek. But I'd expect nothing less from the group of individuals known as the middle class.

Just some figures, as of the end of 2009 (latest figures I could find)

Current Public Pension Liabilities £1.177 Billion (that's nearly £20k per person in the UK)

85% yes eighty five! of our GDP.

Yet some still want to argue that this is ok and can continue?

Who will be paying for that? That's right, your kids, their kids and possibly their kids too.

[i]really you think this hasn't been
going on in the private sector?????[/i]

think that was his point, ie. this was what has happened in the private sector.

[i]Interesting attitude. It is we who will pay your pension; you should be more grateful. [/i]

Grateful - exactly why should a nurse/policeman etc. be grateful to you when they provide a much needed service.

I have worked in both public and private sector and it never ceases to amaze me when people always bang on about lazy, incompetent public workers as though these sort of people never exist in the private sector and the private sector is a model of efficiency.

Interesting attitude. It is we who will pay your pension; you should be more grateful.

Aye but be careful;it is me who educates your children so they can get a well-paid job and pay more tax to support my "huge" pension.Any more pish from you laddie and I will let them watch dvds 24/7

I was going to post a reply but I suspect it would turn into a vitriolic tirade against the employees in the private sector that clearly have no idea how hard my staff and my colleagues work in our part of the public sector!

Scott Chegg

It is we who will pay your pension; you should be more grateful.

That's right, because it's only the private sector who ever pay tax, NI, and pension contributions isn't it.

Nugget.

ziggy - that is simple nonsense. That liability is the entire future liabilty - ie over 50+ years. So actually the liability each year is 2% of that. And it also ignores the increased contributions that most of us are making.

That is simply one of the false sets of figures used to create the moral panic over this

Overall its a good thing and long overdue but it does seem logical that wages will have to rise to reflect loss of such a valuable benefit.

I don't think the 'race to bottom' argument works becuase most firms in the private sector can't see far enough into the future to take on the 40-60 year liability that a final salary pension is.

You also end up with the silly situation that some companies' pension funds are bigger / worth more than the company itself (British Steel, BT, GPO etc).

breakneckspeed - Member

"The average pension paid to a woman [nurse] is less than £4,000 – there is nothing ‘gold plated’ about that figure."- RCN
http://bit.ly/eDIcY8

shame they don't say how long they were employed to get that benefit

also from same source

“There is a risk under this proposal that there may be an exodus of hard-working staff before the normal pension age is increased to 65. These departures would have a significant effect on patient services and those NHS staff left behind to deliver patient care.

aha, that will help reduce unemployment won't it

That is simply one of the false sets of figures used to create the moral panic over this

However look at our American or Canadian counterparts who have liabilities of 26% and 27% of their GDP.

AS A civil servant we have always been told in my department, the reason our pay is low is because of the value of the pension. ie low pay but good pension. The pension has always been factored into the pay negotiations. Now it seems we are told it's low pay and a crap pension. Ok - now pay me the going rate for the job then.( You should note that when the minumum wage legislation came into effect my department had to raise its wages so not to fall foul of the law) At the moment the civil service is paying more in as contributions than its paying out in pensions.

We have the problem in our brigade that due to govt cuts we plan on closing 12 stations and reduce manning on 10 others but this causes more problems as they are then even less people contributing to the pension pot , that and lack of cover but since govt have scrapped attendance times that apparently doesn't matter 🙁 but that's a whole other matter