[Closed] human rights or soft leftyism?

well thats what the pms press officer (andy- they hacked them phones without me knowing m'lud- coulson) has told him to say
coz then he looks like a man of the people for the people just like his fellow sun reading brown people disliking electorate
-and his fellow multi millionaire bullingdon buddies look like they are standing up against those lefty eurocrats, without actually doing anything about it

fwiw the guys a scumbag but fred summed the whole thing up a few pages back

The facts are:

Non-British person who happened to kill someone in a driving incident isn't sent back to his country of origin as he has a British partner and two kids born in Britain. Court rules he has right to stay under Human Rights legislation.

I see rudeboy and tandemjeremy (I feel sorry for the person he's in tandem with) are spouting nonsense, yet again. Though also are the outraged

The ECHR is not binding [i]per se[/i] but domestic laws must follow "the principles". As unpalatable as this case is the person was sentenced to less than one year which is not a deportable sentence (it must be a prison + one-year); Further he has british children and a wife so it becomes making a (british) family move to Iraq (i.e. removing british persons to another country whilst the husband reapply for entry clearance), exiling British citizens, or the Kafka principle http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKHL/2008/40.html

If anyones to blame its Labour for bringing in a half thought out law and allowing immigrants who commit criminal offences (beyond speeding etc..) remain in the country, still they managed to socialy engineer the country to there own ends http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/7198329/Labours-secret-plan-to-lure-migrants.html to which we're now left with (another) mess the created

I feel sorry for the person he's in tandem with

I don't I'm quite jealous of them I'd like to ride on his tandem then I could look at his bottom. 😀

The rest of your post I really can't be bothered with; sorry. Want a beer?

Lets face it there are to many foriegners here who we dont want but cant get rid of .They are a burden on the benefit system and the criminal justice system but our hands seem to be tied as far as ridding our small overpopulated country of them.

yeah way too many foreigners them labour leftys have ruined our once great land

im off to the EDL demo in luton this weekend, gonna bash me some mooslim heads in

😳

some genuinely ignorant twunts on here

He cannot be an asylum seeker if he is granted residency in the UK so should incur jail term (if given one) ... also he should be given an appropriate jail term (I prefer a long jail term & hard labour) rather than all those fluffy community human rights shite.

If he is not granted asylum in the UK then he can be sent home after a jail term (provided he is given one) but now he is claiming his "human rights" are violated simply because the loophole of having fathered children in UK.

The question now is ... is his human rights above others? I mean is his children above others'?

No shite all this human rights shite should just be abolished.

Human rights ...
[url= http://www.****/news/article-1339152/Shivaun-Patra-Orton-faces-death-penalty-heroin-haul-Malaysia.html ]To be hanged. [/url]

[b]Lets[/b] face it there are [b]to[/b] many [b]foriegner[/b]s here who [u]we[/u] dont want but cant get rid of .They are a burden on the benefit system and the criminal [b]jusrice[/b] system but our hands seem to be tied as far as ridding our small overpopulated country of them.

I know; it's terrible. 🙁

I mean, our very culture is being eroded whilst we're powerless to do anything about it, lest we be labelled 'racists'. Even the [i]English language[/i] itself is being corrupted by evil foreign influences bent on destroying our hard-fought for Britishness....

I know we are a mix of Angles, Saxons ,Vkings ,Hugenots etc and our royal family is German and Greek but we seem overly hospitable to any sob story of hardship and alleged abuse from overseas

Minimum 20yrs jail then send the low life scum back from whence he came. Simples.

I thought you were "bored" with this thread Elfinman and you won't going to comment anymore ?

It's clear now that this thread in fact captivates you. And the real reason you said you weren't going to comment, was because you couldn't defend your position, particularly your absurd suggestion that Ibrahim's ethnicity was relevant.

But anyway.......

Elfinsafety - Member

Ha ha!

Do you even know what you are laughing at........or is it just another of your knee-jerk reactions to which you haven't given any thought ?

This is what TJ said in relation to the HRA :

[i]"piha - according to the article it was the right to family life under the HRA which uses the wording from the ECHR. It is not a "loophole" in the law. It about the interpretation by our courts - which may or may not be correct in this case"[/i]

He is of course absolutely correct, you only have to read the newspapers to know that to be true. It was the judges interpretation of the requirements under the HRA which was the deciding factor.

Lawyers for the UK Border Agency, which incidentally, although I can't be certain they ride mountain bikes, I can be absolutely positive that they deal with "the HRA on a daily basis", argued that the HRA could be interpreted in a way which would make Ibrahim's deportation legal.

It is imo, a tragedy that the judges interpreted the HRA in the way they did - it's not a laughing matter, far from it. Because the HRA has a great deal of enemies, amongst them the rabble-rousing gutter-press and Tory Party.

In fact, David Cameron himself wrote to Amy Houston's father before the last election promising to scrap the HRA. The only thing which has stopped Cameron fulfilling his promise are the terms of the coalition agreement.

But now as a direct result of the judges interpretation of the HRA in this case, the rabble-rousers are up in arms demanding that the HRA be scrapped. It is not something I welcome or feel should be celebrated.

I can't myself see anything fundamentally wrong with the HRA, as long as it can be interpreted in a way which doesn't give foreign criminals rights which they are not morally entitled to. I most certainly don't trust the Tory's "Bill of Rights" replacement for the HRA, we all know what the Tories believe their "rights" to be.

As far as I am aware, the coalition agreement does not specify that the HTA won't be scrapped, merely that the government will establish a commission to look into the matter. The outcome of this case will very much strengthen those despise basic human rights for ordinary people, preferring instead the privileges of the few.

Who's laughing now ?

The judge is compassionate towards his family life because of the children he fathered ... but the question is why his children?

The question is does the govt has the balls to change the human rights shite?

God, Ernie you dunalf talk some crap too.

And the real reason you said you weren't going to comment, was because you couldn't defend your position

Never said I weren't going to comment, just that I was fed up with this thread as it's just a load of emotionally driven opinionated vitriol, and there's bugger all actual 'discussion' going on.

I've done with the 'argument'. But feel free to carry on being clever. I'm obviously not as clever as you, so I'm afraid I can no longer 'compete'.

I'll keep an amused eye out on proceedings. Interesting to see how folk really think.

Who's laughing now ?

I am, actually. 😆

I am trying to imagine what that dog would look like, if it inadvertently chewed on a wasp.

As Ernie touched on a few pages back, none of us knows how we will react in such a situation. Remember that fine, upstanding ENGLISH lady earlier in the year? The one with a previously unblemished character who ran over a small boy, legged it and spent a month or so in hiding because she couldn't come to terms with what she'd done?

I listened to that Radio 2 interview this morning, and yes, it was quite heartbreaking (quite as in completely, rather than 'a little') but I see no reason to treat him any differently, in legal terms, than any other citizen bound by the laws of this country.

Never said I weren't going to comment

Your post 12 hours ago must have thrown me :

Elfinsafety - Member

Edit: No actually I really can't be bothered with it any more.

Posted 12 hours ago

Made a comment, then scrapped it.

But now of course I understand what you meant.....no [i]constructive[/i] comments. Just stuff like "Ernie you dunalf talk some crap".

it's just a load of emotionally driven opinionated vitriol, and there's bugger all actual 'discussion' going on.

There's certainly a fair bit of emotionally driven vitriol on this thread, but sometimes perhaps it's necessary to challenge it by offering a more common-sense approach. Although I can see that you don't agree on that one.

This is quite a serious issue imo, concerning justice, human rights, and apparently, race relations.

I see no reason to treat him any differently, in legal terms, than any other citizen bound by the laws of this country.

Yup, by some of the comments on here you would have thought that he had been found guilty of murder, rape, or child molestation, with all the talk of shooting him, or referring to him as something worse than dog shit. Much of it due to the fact that he is middle-eastern no doubt.

The truth however, is that he is a persistent criminal who forfeited all rights to remain in the UK. I right which he never had in the first place I would add.

Except that he hasn't. According to the law, which may well be hog-tied and blinkered but stands or falls on its consistency.

user-removed - Member

As Ernie touched on a few pages back, none of us knows how we will react in such a situation. Remember that fine, upstanding ENGLISH lady earlier in the year? The one with a [u][b]previously unblemished character[/b][/u] who ran over a small boy, legged it and spent a month or so in hiding because she couldn't come to terms with what she'd done?

I listened to that Radio 2 interview this morning, and yes, it was quite heartbreaking (quite as in completely, rather than 'a little') but I see no reason to treat him any differently, in legal terms, than any other citizen bound by the laws of this country.

This guy has various records as he is a:

1. Disqualified driver.
2) He went on to commit a string of other offences.
3) Twice turned down for asylum.
[b]4) Could stay on the grounds of his right to family life. (judge let him stay on for this reason i.e. family life)
[/b]
So basically you need to have a family to commit offences and then get a slap on the wrists if found guilty.

The law is blind ... yet the people that apply it do not carry common sense. Yes, he has a family so are others. Therefore, the question is why is he treated differently?

Except that he hasn't.

I was of course referring to "in most people's eyes". We all know how the judges interpreted the HRA in his favour. The fact that he has a [i]legal[/i] right does not detract from the comment.

You have completely missed user-removed's point chewkw.

ernie_lynch - Member

You have completely missed user-removed's point chewkw.

Regardless, the guy has no good track record to be warranted a residency in the UK. Where is the so called good characters?

The only way for him to stay on is to get someone pregnant use that as an excuse for having a "family" life and be treated equally ... he is not supposed to be here in the first place!

Human rights? What about others?

Your post 12 hours ago must have thrown me

Not surprised; I imagine the fact that I can't be bothered continuing with a pointless argument with people whose opinions are not going to change is something you can't get yer head around, eh? 🙂

No, seriously; I've said be bit on here, have me own thoughts, I'm happy with that. Nothing to be gained from arguing any further, no point in continuing to argue.

I've only hung around because I find it interesting to watch others get worked up over things, and I find some of the comments quite revealing of people's characters.

Classic stuff there Fred. Classic. Why folk bother engaging you I don't know!

with all the talk of shooting him, or referring to him as something worse than dog shit. Much of it due to the fact that he is middle-eastern no doubt.

Personally, I couldn't care what his origin/colour/religious beliefs are - he's a scumbag who should have been removed from this country as soon as his asylum application was refused. Maybe you'd like to have him as a neighbour Ernie, someone has to................................or maybe not 🙄

Edric 64 - Member

Lets face it there are to many foriegners here who we dont want but cant get rid of .They are a burden on the benefit system and the criminal justice system but our hands seem to be tied as far as ridding our small overpopulated country of them.

I know we are a mix of Angles, Saxons ,Vkings ,Hugenots etc and our royal family is German and Greek but we seem overly hospitable to any sob story of hardship and alleged abuse from overseas

Therefore, the question is why is he treated differently?

Just thought I'd drop in on page 5 to see how it's going.

Good grief.

to the person who posted the troll tag when this thread was started.............................epic fail 😆

You're quite right Ton - whoever would have thought that this topic would provide anything other than friendly debate and a bit of lighthearted banter 😉 😆

Maybe you'd like to have him as a neighbour Ernie

Throughout this entire thread I have argued that he should be deported, often in what I would have thought was a rather forceful manner. In fact just a few posts back on this page I said, "he is a persistent criminal who forfeited all rights to remain in the UK. I right which he never had in the first place I would add".

But now you ask me whether I'd like to have him as a neighbour. Well I guess that's a tricky one. What do you reckon Woody, I don't want him in the country at all, do you think I might want him as a neighbour ?

I have to say the stupidity of some people really does take my breath away sometimes. Still never mind, it's all good fun.

Elfinsafety - Member

I've only hung around because I find it interesting to watch others get worked up over things, and I find some of the comments quite revealing of people's characters.

And some of the comments are depressingly predictable. Such as the suggestion that the guy should get special treatment and privileges because of his race.

i am just sat reading the sun..................who it seems dont really like the bloke.
if he were my next door neighbour i reckon he would move pretty sharpish. 😉

Yeh I'm stoopid ernie - almost as stupid as you.....

Yup, by some of the comments on here you would have thought that he had been found guilty of murder, rape, or child molestation, with all the talk of shooting him, or referring to him as something worse than dog shit. Much of it due to the fact that he is middle-eastern no doubt.

If you care to look back, I agreed with your earlier post. By referring to the neighbour aspect I was alluding with your unstinting obsession that all things break down into a left/right wing or (anti)racist agenda and that any opinion different to that must be directly opposite your views and therefore worthy of your derision but you took my comments literally 🙄

From what I have read on this thread there has not been much of a racist bias and most (with the odd exception) of the comments regarding deportation are simply because he is only here by virtue of having produced 2 children.

It's alright, he only killed a child in a car which he was disqualified from driving, so not really that bad eh!

Yep, breathtakingly stupid.........where's the bit where I say "It's alright because he's really not that bad" eh ? I have referred to him as a persistent criminal who should be deported.

But unlike you, I haven't lost my grip on reality. He hasn't been convicted for murder or rape. I don't know the details of the accident concerning the death of the child, and don't wish to know either btw I find stuff like that about children upsetting, but I do know that he was convicted of driving whilst disqualified and failing to stop, both serious offences but not murder.

As user-removed has pointed out, even people with a previously unblemished characters have been known to fail to stop at the scene of an accident. I have also known quite nice people to drive whilst under a ban, despite it being totally unacceptable. Now if you want to get all hysterical and start comparing him with cold-blooded murders, serial rapists, paedophiles, etc, then it simply shows what dumb tabloid-fodder you are. Try to use your brain and keep things in perspective.

I was alluding with your unstinting obsession that all things break down into a left/right wing or (anti)racist agenda

When I first commented on this thread I said :

ernie_lynch - Member

Oh, and I think it is "soft leftyism" rather than human rights. Some people who claim to be left-wing, are far too terrified of being labelled "racist" to call for his deportation. Sad but true.

Posted 1 day ago

So I have clearly criticised some 'leftists' on this issue, although I have also explicitly pointed out that it as [b][i]not[/i][/b] a left/right issue, by giving the example of the Guardian's assistant editor calling for the guy's deportation. I have repeatedly said that the guy's race has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this case, and have criticised those who have tried to make an issue out of it.

I do in fact, agree with ton in this issue.

Perhaps it's [i][b]you[/i][/b] who should deal with their predetermined prejudices Woody 💡

Excellent Ernie - it's taken you all this time to come up with that. In the interim I've been to the dentists and had a tooth capped!

In this case I'll admit that my criticism of you is probably incorrect, however, in your case I work on the principal that as you usually talk out of your arse, rather than wasting time dissecting your outpourings, it is easier to simply disagree with whatever you say. This is one of those rare occasions when you may have actually said something approaching a balanced reasonable argument.

Not to worry, I recognise my mistake and it will not happen again as I will simply ignore your posts completely. Sorted 😉

Ernie; why not check out all your posts this week, and count all the words (Word can do this), and work out how many have been spent on arguing. Trust me, you'll find it truly shocking. Then, consider how much time and effort has gone into typing all those words. Then contemplate wether or not it was a positive,constructive use of time.

You could have taken time to advise me on finishing plywood, and some other woodworking tips. I appealed to your knowledge as a man experienced with wood, yet have had absolutely bugger all really useful advice.

I know I'm a serial argumentalist, but for the love of the Sweet Little Baby Jesus, his mother Mary and all the little animals in the barn; this is beyond ridiculous now. Which is why I've not bothered with it that much. And look, neither has TJ either!

It has stopped snowing.

[b][i]"it's taken you all this time to come up with that"[/i][/b]

Well I've got to confess that I didn't treat it as a priority. Apologies if I kept you waiting.

[b][i]"I will simply ignore your posts completely"[/i][/b]

You know it makes sense..............I'll remind you if you forget.

It has stopped snowing.

It's been snowing in that London?

Has everyone now gone done the Tube to camp out & escape this disaster?
Chas 'N' Dave may even reunite to lead a singalonger knees up to keep everyone's spirits up until it's gone & it's once again safe to venture out

I know I'm a serial argumentalist

Yeah, but you also know when you're wrong. Doesn't stop you making snidey comments mind.

And if I've returned to this subject repeatedly, then it is in part due to this issue highlighting much that imo is wrong with the British left......the [i]"oh you can't deport him because it would be racism"[/i] bollocks.

Plus of course, I've always enjoyed having a poke at the liberal pseudo-leftie PC brigade. Why let a chance like that go by ? 😀

it's soft leftyism
there's too much of that about.

Socialism is not Mother Nature's way.

See? It's entertaining, this thread... 😀

Socialism is not Mother Nature's way.

.

Elfinsafety - Member
Ernie; why not check out all your posts this week, and count all the words (Word can do this), and work out how many have been spent on arguing. Trust me, you'll find it truly shocking. Then, consider how much time and effort has gone into typing all those words. Then contemplate wether or not it was a positive,constructive use of time.

[img] [/img]

@ CA

[img] /party-smiley-558.gif[/img]

I thanks you!

you sure the irony is not intended I assumed it was.
Elf knows he argues he is not that daft
Not like TJ who cannot see that he does not answer questions for example Just a thought

Maybe but Fred trots that line out all the time. If someone says "I was being intentionally ironic" it's a get-out for everything!

As for TJ, well, I couldn't possibly comment.

indeed al fair point on both counts 😉 and 🙄

Socialism is not Mother Nature's way.

Well I chose to ignore it Junkyard, but since you've picked it up, then I guess it's worth pointing out that despite many people believing it to be true, the premiss is false - in fact the opposite is true. Not that there's a great deal to discuss, so I doubt whether it deserves a whole thread.

For millions of years before the advent of accumulations of requirements, and organised religion, human society was based on common ownership. In fact even today the very last remaining highly primitive societies, are also highly socialistic societies.

I didn't say all foriegners did I ? There are many people of all races and creeds here who contribute to our society.The ones I don't want here are the illegals and those here under false pretence and failed asylum seekers who play the system after killing young children

I don't deny that I argue. I realise what an utter waste of time it mostly is. I'm not denying my own faults, or even suggesting that I don't have any; I was only suggesting Ernie do the same. Cynic-al seems to need to ridicule others to feel good, because that's all he seems to do on here. Hey ho. 😉

It is entertaining at times, just not worth making the effort on this thread, that's all.

fair enough re clarification edric
ernie well obviously I agree I just wondered how he was going to explain the figure of a mother not looking after all her children equally.

before the advent of accumulations of requirements

When I wrote that it didn't look as if it made any sense. When I just re-read it, it still didn't look as if it made any sense. I've now realised that it's because it doesn't, in fact make any sense. Or very little sense at least. I guess I was thinking along the lines of "before the advent of accumulations of [i]surplus[/i]". Although TBH I'm not sure how much sense that makes either. I just can't be arsed to go into a big long spiel about grain cultivation, surplus requirement, money, accumulation, etc.

.

I was only suggesting Ernie do the same.

Your comments regarding my input on this thread are a fairly big exaggeration. I saw this thread go up and initially followed it without making any comments. It was towards the end of the second page before I made my first comment. You on the other hand, dived in straight away and posted the fifth comment. You've been on the thread ever since.

And whilst I initially decided not to get involved, I did eventually, mostly as result of the usual suspects, ie you and TJ, rolling out the tired old knee-jerk PC comments, and you waffling on about him being an Iraqi Kurd.......the significance of which, you still haven't explained.

And contrary to your claims, your initial contributions were not "constructive" and then you got "bored", your very first post was a complete piss-take of ton, check it - I just have. So don't give me all that sanctimonious bollox 😕

As far as your plywood DIY coffee table is concerned, I've offered you advise which you've rejected out of hand........now there's gratitude for you 😐

How's your one-legged 1970s sideboard getting on btw ?

You've been on the thread ever since.

Yeah but you've posted more words than I have. 🙂

As far as your plywood DIY coffee table is concerned, I've offered you advise which you've rejected out of hand........now there's gratitude for you

Well, you did give me a bit of advice, and I am grateful. But then when I asked for more advice you just became nasty and mean. 😥

I still love you though. X

TJ, rolling out the tired old knee-jerk PC comments,

Show me where I did this?

you've posted more words than I have

Well that's hardly surprising.

Posting a carefully thought out, intelligent, coherent, rational, sensitivity, meaningful, reasonable, and enlightened comment, requires just a tad more words than a snidey dig.

Not that you would know of course 😐

you 3 are ace.
you make my life more complete, seriously.......... 8)

Show me where I did this?

Jeeeez us ..........I got stuff to do and you suddenly roll up causing me to go scrolling down threads looking for stuff.......

[i][b]"Its all part of the Murdoch agenda of string up anti immigration anti asylumn seeker feelings."[/b][/i]

"tired old knee-jerk PC comments"

you 3 are ace.
you make my life more complete, seriously..........

Thank you Ton! 😀

(Sits in corner rubbing own faeces all over self)

Its the truth tho Ernie. That is exactly what it is.

No it's not the truth. The assistant editor of the Guardian has said, quote : "send him home" but he is not part of the Murdoch agenda of string up anti immigration anti asylum seeker feelings.

Your reaction to this story was a typical knee-jerk PC reaction. For you it is inconceivable that anyone other than a racist bigot, would want to send a persistent criminal who entered the country illegally, home.

. For you it is inconceivable that anyone other than a racist bigot, would want to send a persistent criminal who entered the country illegally, home.

Thats just rubbish. I don't believe that, I have not said it on the thread.

I agree with deported convicted criminals and have said so on this thread

TandemJeremy

FWIW I actually have no issue with deporting crims that are not UK residents. I think it should be done more and more quickly.

Thats just rubbish. I don't believe that

Well apparently you do. You automatically dismissed the story on the grounds that it was "all part of the Murdoch agenda of string up anti immigration anti asylum seeker feelings".

That comment was in your very first post btw. Why even mention it, if you thought it wasn't true ? You could have ignored the "Murdoch agenda" and just explained why the low-life should stay in the UK.

Actually I'm going to give way on this one TJ...........I am going to agree with you and say that you are [i]not[/i] in fact PC.

But tell me TJ, how are you going to live with yourself, now that you realise that you are no longer politically correct ?

BTW, I look forward to you joining in and attacking the PC brigade with me in the future 8)

Ernie

Can you read?

TandemJeremy

FWIW I actually have no issue with deporting crims that are not UK residents. I think it should be done more and more quickly.

Its the truth tho Ernie. That is exactly what it is.

sometimes........i wish i kept my big fat gob shut... 😀

I think we've all learnt something here Ton. 🙂

cynic - al seems to need to ridicule others to feel good , because that's all he seems to do on here.
Hey ho .

This was fun. Think about what I've said. It'll make you a better person.

And I won't even ask for thanks.

I'm nice like that.

Now toddle off.

oh wow guys, this thread is a work of art, I'm gonna print it out and frame it!

as for the bad driving brown bloke, just shoot him, I haven't seen him contribute one bit to this thread.

Ernie, can I employ you as some kinda consultant?, cos you see, I haven't got an answer for everything, sometimes I just don't know and I feel a bit thick, and I make mistakes. You'd be really handy 😉

I think we've all learnt something here Ton.

Well I've learnt that TJ isn't politically correct, but more importantly, that [i]he[/i] doesn't think he's politically correct.

What have you learnt Elfi ?

I actually just put my head in my hands. Physically. One palm cupping each cheek of my face. Elbows on knees. Fingers extending to forehead. I did this.

as for the bad driving brown bloke, just shoot him, I haven't seen him contribute one bit to this thread.

but also, by that measure, I should shoot myself, as I have contributed nothing. Goodbye cruel thread!

What have you learnt Elfi ?

I have learnt that it is possible to [b]not[/b] have to keep arguing with folk over something. It doesn't really matter about 'winning', if you have confidence in your own beliefs. If others don't agree, then leave them be; it can be an utter waste of energy arguing.

Think about what I've said. It'll make you a better person.

I would, if only you said something that a) I don't already know, and b) was actually interesting. If your own ego wasn't so fragile, then maybe you too would see past your own need to 'win', and that you too could experience the same epiphany as I have. 🙂

I won't charge you for this valuable insight though, as I too am really quite lovely. 😮

Kev; can I have yer bikes then? 😀

Please don't despair, user-removed. It really isn't all that bad. 🙁

Fred why do you have to get so nasty and personal?

Was it not obvious I was having a little joke?