[Closed] human rights or soft leftyism?

the law?

Neither. Just a questionable decision.

You say "lefty" like it's a bad thing.

luke.......i did not mean to
i just do not know what else to call it.

sorry, i read it all but couldn't find the leftyism bit ?

Or, the bit you forgot, Ton, in getting all excited over an article in [b]The Sun[/b];

'Will this make a good trolling thread for STW?'

😉

luke.......i did not mean to
i just do not know what else to call it.

We gather not fully understanding stuff that requires a bit of thought isn't exactly your strong point, Ton.

Is the Daily Mail just a little too intellectual for you then?

sun was 1st one on google.

in laymans terms.............is it right or wrong.

howay ton 🙄

I would hunt the sod down and kill him .I am sure you would be treated ok by other prisoners for exterminating the person who killed your kid

in laymans terms.............is it right or wrong.

Is what 'wrong'? The decision by a British Court to allow him to stay in the UK as he now fulfils the legal criteria for residency?

Are you saying the British Legal System is at fault then?

Judges are not idiots.

Sun readers on the other hand.....

fred.........no, i am asking if people on here think it is right or wrong.
simple yes or no answer will do..........no drama's eh?

He committed an awful crime of leaving the scene of an accident because he was already banned from driving, its thought he may have been able to help the poor child if he had stayed.
That makes him cowardly and dispicable in my book.
He is obviously still human in societies eyes hence has human rights.

fred.........no, i am asking if people on here think it is right or wrong.

Simple people see things in simple terms. Are you a simple person ton?

Judges are not idiots.

You know that for sure do you?

I'll go with the decision of the British Justice System, Ton.

Because I've got faith in that, unlike the Sun, which appears to be a very unpatriotic newspaper. In fact, I'd say it's actions amount to treason!!!

To Wapping! Flaming torches in hand! This day, we shall have Justice!

I think it's very telling that the girl was ginger, and that he's not white. I'm on to something, aren't I?

dd, you tell me?

http://www.annaraccoon.com/politics/dog-bites-man-owner-swears/

This one is an idiot

in laymans terms.............is it right or wrong.

Well short term probably not.

Long term its very difficult to say, if by some miracle he actually turns out to be a decent dad the his influence on his children may may a beneficial impact on their behaviour when there older.

On the other hand he might be a rubbish dad and they might actually be better off without him for all I know.

I think its fairly obvious that he he goes back to iraq he is likely to have a negative influence in such a fragile country which may lead to more iraqi asylum seekers in the future ?

If every advanced country did send every immigrant who committed a crime back it would seem obviously that these countries will suffer possibly creating more immigrants.

The problem is the world is such an interconnected place now adays we really need to sort problems out world wide it wont work trying to export them to another country. There'll just come back and bite you ala 9/11 etc etc

You know that for sure do you?

er yes.

you dont get to be one without a proven track record.
the judge applied the law.

dd, you tell me?

8) .................... 8)

I don't know you that well ton. I just fancy you. You'd know whether you were simple or not.

As a failed asylum seeker why didn't we just take him home and drop him out of a Hercules without a parachute,and take that one armed rabble rousing cleric with him

you dont get to be one without a proven track record.

My mates a judge. I know his track record!

I only know the one mind you. How many do you know?

Nonk,many judges have applied the law in a strange way and some are totally out of touch with reality.

why didn't[b] we[/b] just take him home

Who's 'we', Edric?

I would say that it's a safe bet that judges in full possession of all the facts made the only legal choice available. Sometimes the law appears odd but you can't make laws on a case by case basis. This is a hugely complicated issue, boiled down to appeal to the racist readers of the main shitsheets.

OK then our Government.

I do wish Judges were a bit more publicly accountable though.
You get to see Paxman et al calling to account elected politicians and unelected senior police officers, but judges seem to be immune to any similar scrutiny.

jools..............harsh mate.
it was the 1st thing on google, and i have never bought the sun in my life.
i do hope you are not saying what i think you are saying mate?

Well, I'd imagine the democratically elected members of Her Majesty's Government are also beholden to the same Laws that the rest of us are, and must therefore obey the instructions of the Courts.

Or are you saying that it's ok for everyone to ignore what the Law and the Courts say, and just do as we please?

how do you know this edric is it from reading the paper.
in my expearience the report is a country mile away from what actually happened.

oh hold up mate i see you have switched your attention to the the gov.
well yeah.

No Ton I am not calling you racist I appreciate you linked to the first result.

thanks mate.

His immigration status is irrelevant really, only legitimate question is was his sentence too lenient? Given that he wasn't charged with causing death by dangerous I think we can safely assume we don't have the full story.

Which report ? the accident or the dog bite one ?

I only know the one mind you. How many do you know?

far more than i can be arsed to count.

Ton I am not calling you racist. I appreciate you linked to the first result on line.

How's this for story, English man with extensive criminal record, fatally injures girl and leaves scene of accident. Later convicted and given suspended sentence. Less of an outrage or more of one? The fact this person is an immigrant is not relevant to this matter the two are separate and discrete. I would say it is unfortunate he is here but he is and we have to deal with him within the law.

I do wish Judges were a bit more publicly accountable though.
You get to see Paxman et al calling to account elected politicians and unelected senior police officers, but judges seem to be immune to any similar scrutiny.

There's public scrutiny, and decisions may be challenged where appropriate.

The spineless git drove off though which is probably the worst thing about it.

jools..........how about if it were a british national commiting the same crime in another country.
what would the outcome be then.

are we too leniant on crime?

[i]'The Sun exists so that thick people can believe they read a newspaper'[/i]

-The words of a friend of mine, who writes for that great British [i]institution[/i]...

i notice that alongside that article, the Sun also has this:

[url= http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3278546/Comical-looks-of-Britains-ugliest-dog-have-landed-him-a-home.html ]Comical Looks of Britain's ugliest dog have landed him a home[/url]

I think it's wonderful that we have such fine upstanding organs as this. Where would this country be, without The Sun, eh?

[img] [/img]

Well, the point that the understandably bitter father, Mr Houston, eloquently made in an interview that I heard was that Mr Ibrahim is saying that he has a basic human right to be with his family in the UK, yet he has denied Mr Houston the very same through his actions. He also suggested that Mr Ibrahim had fathered children to help his continued residency in the UK.

Mr Ibrahim has allegedly shown no remorse or offered an apology to Mr Houston.

It's a sad and tragic story but it has nothing to do with his nationality, his colour or his ethnicity despite what the rightwing media might lead you to believe. Mr Ibrahim has served his sentence and is free to return to Iraq with his family, although that in itself is complicated due to him being a member of a persecuted minority in his own country. He is also now free to stay in the UK.

If the decision is wrong then the law must be wrong. We either change the law or accept its shortfalls; it's not a one size fits all kind of thing.

Personally, I think the decision to allow him to stay is the right one.

fred.........mrs ton has just weed herself laughing at that dog thing.... 😆

Well I resent the allegation that I am to blame for your wife's incontinence, quite frankly. 😐

You'll be hearing from my lawyers in the morning.

that dog makes me feel a bit sick 😕

There is no doubt in my mind that the man is question is an odious little turd, who deserves some time inside.

However one of the things that is great about this country (as opposed to other less open states) is that the law is the law, it's not for bending, once a matter comes to court there are checks and balances to make sure the law is applied properly it's not perfect but it's pretty good. If judges started bending the law on a whim that would be pretty disasterous.

That is a very very very ugly dog. Jeebus has it got three legs as well?

that dog makes me feel a bit sick

More intelligent than your average Sun reader though.

wThe sun is a poor rag but most of that articel is the words of the father

"Amy was my only child... due to medical reasons I am unable to have any more children.

"Amy was and is my family, so my point is, it is my right to a family life that has been deprived and not Mr Ibrahim's.

"Mr Ibrahim claims to be a family man but if it's your actions that define who you are and not your words, then offences for possession of drugs, burglary, harassment, damage to property and theft as well as driving convictions and my daughter's death, you could argue that Mr Ibrahim is a negative influence as a role model as a father.

"I cannot understand by letting Mr Ibrahim remain in the UK what benefits he could bring to society.

"Had he shown some real remorse for what he had done and not committed any more crimes, I could accept that this was just an accident.

"On the evening of November 23 2003 Mr Ibrahim struck Amy, he didn't kill her outright, she was still conscious.

"She was fully aware what was happening around her even though she had the full weight of the engine block of the car on top of her, she was crying because she was frightened and in a lot of pain ... he could have at least tried to help.

That dog makes Ann Widecombe look attractive

how about if it were a british national commiting the same crime in another country

Well you'd be at the mercy of that country's legal system and would be punished accordingly.

I think the leniency issue is valid ...4 months in prison for fleeing the scene of an accident in which a young girl was killed does seem lenient, especially if the child is your daughter.

I think that some kind of face-to-face meeting between the 2 parties would allow the deprived father to express his grief and anger and seek closure.

As a parent with a child the same age the latter part of the quote is heartbreaking. I find it inconceivable that anyone could leave the scene.

I'll go with the decision of the British Justice System, Ton.

Because I've got faith in that

some are totally out of touch with reality

The fact the git showed no remorse is a very bad sign imho. Personally I would have him inside being punished for his crime, then shipped back to Iraq but hey ho that's me 😀

[i]'I think that some kind of face-to-face meeting between the 2 parties would allow the deprived father to express his grief and anger and seek closure.'[/i]

Unless he shows no remorse there too. That would go down well.

surfer - I've just read that quote too ...the poor thing, how utterly sad and heartbreaking for her loved ones.

Sirlickalot - yes, I see what you mean.

I would trust teh justice sytem rather than the sun

How do you guys know he showed no remorse? Any other info other than the sun article - which is clearly intended to be inflammatory and partial and to stir up emotions exactly as it has done with you guys

Its all part of the Murdoch agenda of string up anti immigration anti asylumn seeker feelings.

How do you guys know he showed no remorse?

From the Father as he was interviewed on the news.

TJ - the father said that he had been stood 6' from him when he had the opportunity to show remorse and did not do so. Heresay I know but he sounded perfectly level & reliable as he reported that.

Right. 🙄

http://www.****/news/article-1339142/Iraqi-asylum-seeker-Aso-Mohammed-Ibrahim-let-girl-12-die-right-stay-UK.html

😐

[i]Cant believe my love of my kids instantly strip some of all my liberal lefty tendencies - primal sadly guess why we have neutral impartial peole to decide on these things.[/i]

I don't have kids, and am fairly liberal on a lot of things, but I wouldn't bat an eyelid if I saw him dead. The fact that he left the scene is what angers me the most. I hit a girl of a similar age when I was about 18. I sat on the pavement shaking. But then again, I'm a British national, was driving legally, and without a string of offences behind me.

I am so looking forward to quoting this back to you - scurrie soff to rozzers with guns thread.

Notice I said British JUSTICE system... 😉

S'important, that bit.

Being that none of us are possessed of the full facts of this entire case, and the asylum issue, I think it's probbly best to go with the Court's decision, unless we know more than them. No?

Two separate things though innit? Bloke's a bit of a scrote, runs down a little girl, flees, she dies. We don't know the full facts of this case; she may have simply run out in front of him, his brakes may have failed, all sorts. Maybe he just panicked and ran. We don't know all this do we? All we know is that the courts din't think he'd killed her deliberately, hence the 'lenient' sentence.

It's very, very sad indeed. I feel so sorry for her poor family. No-one should ever have to go through this.

But the gist of this Sun 'article' seems to suggest that as a non-British national, he should either suffer a longer sentence, or be deported back to a country where his Human Rights would be at risk. He's an Iraqi Kurd; not the luckiest people in history...

The suggestion he had children with someone simply in order to stay here is nothing more than the opinion of the grieving father. Again, we have no idea as to the true nature of his relationship with a [b]British[/b] woman. He is the father to two [b]British[/b] children. What about their rights? As tragic as the little girl's death is, is it right to tear a family apart, or send them to a country where they could well suffer persecution or even death simply because of something that wasn't done deliberately?

Stupid muck-racking inflamatory inciteful gutter press crap from the Sun as usual.

Naranjada

I think that some kind of face-to-face meeting between the 2 parties would allow the deprived father to express his grief and anger and seek closure.

This is done in appropriate cases with very good result. It both allows closure for the bereaved / victims of crime the perpetrators have to face up tho the effects of their crime.

IMO it should be used a lot more than it is

Its all part of the Murdoch agenda of string up anti immigration anti asylumn seeker feelings.

In fairness Elf, the story appears to be told in a pretty similar fashion in all the media outlets.

TJ - yes I suppose that you know best and I am a bad man for taking a grieving father's witness as accurate. What a fool I have been.

Elfin:

We gather not fully understanding stuff that requires a bit of thought isn't exactly your strong point, Ton.

Ouch.......but actually the double negative is contradictory to the intended meaning, whoops.

The Sun is a rotten comic, as many have said deliberatley stirring the racial tension issue. Also very true and relevant is that we don't know the true story so we are all speculating. However if it was my duaghter under that car I'm not sure what my response would be but probably illegal. Whatever race the perpatrator was. I also think we have a pretty good justice system overall but in a society of 60 million there are bound to be wrongs. It must be so deeply sad if it's you and you are affected like the father of that poor girl.

Yeah, but with the same overall crappy 'journalism', in the examples cited here at least. Not that I'd trust owt with 'Lancashire' or Yorkshire' in their titles... 😉

Lazy sensationalist journalism.

Junkyard - I gave my answer. I have more faith in our justice system 5than in the yellow press.

All those stories you post are from the same press release / press conference and are lazy journalism.

If this is true :

Although he now has two children, there was little evidence to suggest he was living at the same address so could not claim a right to family life, it was argued.

And also the claims that he had a string of convictions, then he should be deported without hesitation IMO.

Iraqis do not have an automatic right to live in the UK, and I see absolutely no reason why Britain should allow an Iraqi criminal to live in the country.

He's an Iraqi Kurd; not the luckiest people in history...

What has Iraqi Kurd history got to do with this case ffs ?

Iraqi Kurds do not need asylum.

teej, fred, please tell me what is a good trustworthy newspaper to buy.
or a good trustworthy news source.

it seems that the daily mirror, telegraph, mail, express, guardian, independant and times are all running this story.
bloody gutter press eh????? 🙄

Oh, and I think it is "soft leftyism" rather than human rights. Some people who claim to be left-wing, are far too terrified of being labelled "racist" to call for his deportation. Sad but true.

Ouch.......but actually the double negative is contradictory to the intended meaning, whoops.

Touché... 😳 😆

Iraqis do not have an automatic right to live in the UK, and I see absolutely no reason why Britain should allow an Iraqi criminal to live in the country.

What about the father to two [b]British[/b] children? Or don't they, as [b]British citizens[/b], deserve a family life?

Iraqi Kurds do not need asylum.

Hence his failed asylum application.

I have more faith in our justice system 5than in the yellow press.

it seems that the daily mirror, telegraph, mail, express, guardian, independant and times are all running this story.

They do, but with subtle differences in the way the story is reported.

The Sun's version is overly emotive and makes a big thing of quoting the dad, which is basically nothing more than the dad's opinions, but quoted in such a way to add emotional weight to the story. The Guardian doesn't bother with all that, which is quite frankly irrelevant anyway.

The facts are:

Non-British person who happened to kill someone in a driving incident isn't sent back to his country of origin as he has a British partner and two kids born in Britain. Court rules he has right to stay under Human Rights legislation.

That's it basically. Everything else is superfluous really.

Simple facts don't make for juicy newspaper articles, and long arguing threads on STW, though...

What about the father to two British children? Or don't they, as British citizens, deserve a family life?

Read my post.

Ref : [i]If this is true[/i]

Oh stop fishing Ernie... 😀