[Closed] HR Legal advice Please... getting rid of dodgy staff

didn't they just up the employment rights thing to 2 years?

I think they are planning to and may not have been actioned yet

As a 'manager' you don't really seem all that aware of employment rights or what your staff are doing.

Are you sure it's not you against the wall on Monday?

Pmsl I bet he posts on here durning the day as he enjoys his lazy days work. Bloody private sector, bunch of lazy flekers.

Give him a written warning, after 3 give him the bump.

In BS corporate speak you need to 'manage him out of the business'

I know this doesn't help but how come it's take 12+ months to come to this decision? IME (sales background etc) you can normally assess whether a fellow sales person (ACM, field, manager, director or whatever) is fit for the role in a few weeks or months.

He's not a tiger then?

[img] [/img]

What I find funny is that a so called manager has to post on a bike forum for advice. Maybe it's time for a pay cut, I'm sure your directors would be impressed with your post.

Imagin a doctor coming on here looking for advice on how to treat their patients.

This place gets better and better.

Waiting 13 months to tackle this is hard to understand; no matter - he's in need of a cock-punch and you sound like the man to give it to him.

Being sales, won't he just take this in his stride and pack his bags for pastures new? He's miles off his targets, is already behaving like he wants a way out, so it's not like he can dig his heels in around a defensible position.

Get some proper legal advice from mentor or peninsular etc. basically you need to start a formal management process. 4 weekly review period, weekly call in/documented discussions. If target not hit at 4 weeks then warning. Second period of 4 weeks same process, second warning then final 4 weeks same process. It should take you 12 weeks. BUT if he can demonstrate a lack of close management support tribunal can sometimes favour employee. You need to collate all correspondence and emails you have had over period he has been employed. Agree with space monkey above you could be in an awkward spot if you have taken 12 months to realise you have a problem with performance?
Don't offer compromise agreement as you should be able to get him out if you do the above for 12 weeks.
Good luck
Richard

Don't offer compromise agreement as you should be able to get him out if you do the above for 12 weeks.

I wouldn't allow someone with close contact to customers 12 weeks to hang himself and potentially destroy a load of business.

I'd pay him off

He's clearly hankering to get signed off with stress, so legally you need to be absolutley clear on your position.
Why its taken so long to come to this confuses me. You have the 12 month period for EXACTLY this reason. Now you need to jump through every hoop going to get shot of him.
Should have never got this far....

No offence but I would suggest you contact the mods and get this thread removed. If anyone who knows the guy comes across this and then lets him know I suspect a number of employeement rights may have been breached.

It's probably not very hard to work out your employer using google and your forum profile, and you've already aluded to the fact he's one of two sales guys....

How do you know there's not something devastatingly wrong in his life outside work?

The 12 month limit for canning someone without a reason lifted to 24 months for people employed after April 1st this year. In your position I'd drag him in and basically put a compromise agreement on the table which can be potential tax free. If he doesn't go for this (and he'd be a Muppet not to) it should be relatively easy to manage him out as he's in sales.Set some non negotiable sales targets, say £200k per quarter (which is less than his annual target), if he doesn't't hit it go through the disciplinary process. Actually I'd be tempted to give him a two month target, then written warning, followed by a month target with a final written followed by dismissal a month later. The trick is to make him realise he's going either way and sooner with a cash payoff would better for him without giving him a case for constructive dismissal. You'd be looking at a £10k to £ 15k payout but that going to be easier and cheaper than managing him out and a lot better than he''ll get from tribunal.

The subject in question is a salesman who works for the company I am Sales Manager for, He's just gone over his 12 months period so sacking him without reason is now out of the window due to employment rights

For a while now this fella has been a complete bumbling pilock

wot they ^ said

let me get this, you ve had a guy for a year who has become an arse, now its going to cost five figures to get rid of said arse ?

what kind of industry you in ?

Sounds like you need to go and have a chat with you lawyer again and ask them to hold your hand through the process.

Then, once he's gone, ask for some HOUR training on your legal responsibilities as a manager - TBH am surprised you haven't done this already.

I can not belive a ''manager' has just posted that on a cycle forum.
That is 100% unprofesional and if you are found out by a friend or family member, of this person.
You are putting your company in a position of being taken to an employment tribunal, being sued for 000's and you being fired!

So i agree, if i were you i would strongly ask the mods to remove all traces of this thread! And quickly!!!

Hilarious.

£40K a year for him and you can't even supervise your own staff despite presumably being paid even more.
I wonder why the country is in such a mess...

inadvertently the op has revealed the real way that many firms operate, wing and a prayer-- oh and plenty of bs....

Surely he hasn't just started this.

You've had twelve months to assess the suitability of this guy and now you're deciding you don't like him. You've got a few limited options

1) don't post this kind if stuff on a forum, as its unprofessional
2) Manage him properly
3) Find out what your processes are and follow them

Strangely, this post probably contravenes larger parts of your own codes of conduct than the employee we're discussing.

how come it's take 12+ months to come to this decision?

good question! the very least you could have done was extend his probation or put him on a performance management plan prior to this.

plus there was ample opportunity to stack him with written warnings for the missed meeting before, and now this.

As above, get rid of this thread. You / your company could be properly in the sh*t if the wrong people read this and put 2+2 together.

why not sack yourself with a big cash handshake to sooth the pain .. win win

Our work just pays everyone off with compromise agreements - simple, clean, effective.

You manage sales staff bringing in millions...pay for legal advice.

You should really get professional HR advice before you take any further action.

+1 what tricky dicky said

1. Trial period / probationary period 3 to 6 months
Settling in , understanding the role, understanding the company culture
Company understanding your capability and conduct, clear terms and conditions plus person/ job spec given and employer expectations
2.formal weekly reviews with line manager including objective setting, things learned,
What went well/ not so well, review the previous week
3. Diarised appointment system put on a central system so everyones movements and appointments are transparent
4.Any issues with the above , document at review and set clear objectives and improvement required
5.all good after probationary period - sign off by both parties
6.Qtr PDP ( personal development plan) set by employee with input from line manager , agreed tasks and objectives set
7. Failing? PIP - performance improvement plan with clear criteria and expectations
If still not delivering then follow disciplinary process until performance improves or " manage out the business"

My 2p worth - the companies failed you by not having a robust process in place and in turn you have failed your direct report by not having strict boundaries of what is acceptable and whats not
I suggest that you speak to the MD and appoint a HR manager and a employer relations company for advice
If you have a HR Manager/ Director then what the **** are they playing at ??

Is this thread for real?

Seriously if you ask this advice on a public forum you need sacking first!

Sorry if the truth hurts.

If I was you geordiemick00 - I'd be begging the mods to delete this thread.

In my time on here I've seen some stupid threads and some unprofessional threads - this is the first stupidly unprofessional thread that I've spotted.

It would however make for a half decent troll - but trolling is a banning offence.

You Trollin' Bro'?

I get £40K a year.

I get it for being in charge of an Intensive Care unit, no car, no perks, working nights, working three weekends out of four.

He can't even sell stuff!

(Of course I get a yacht and a Rolls Royce when I retire... 🙄 )

if you ask this advice on a public forum you need sacking first!

This.

I have some sympathy with the OP as, until recently, I carried a management responsibility for a small team.

The management part of my job was a small proportion and it was expected that chargeable work would always trump management activities. As we were very busy I had little time for formal management.

For two members of my team this was ok as they were conscientious and professional and never caused any issues. The third member of the team was a different story and was unreliable and slapdash with his work.

I let this slide for too long and when I finally tackled it he accused me of bullying and made a formal complaint which was investigated by our HR team and found to be baseless.

This caused me a lot of stress and I requested that I lose the management responsibilities which was agreed. The guy who took over the management has had the same issues with this guy who is now off work with stress (eight weeks and counting).

I guess I am trying to say some people are just untrustworthy and are very difficult for non-career managers to deal with.

OP you have my sympathy - I wish I had acted sooner but by calmly detailing the issues I managed to disprove the complaint against me and establish that the guy had not been performing to the standard required. It can be stressful and I would try to work with your HR team (or get the company to get external advice).

I hope it works out ok.

[i]I guess I am trying to say some people are just untrustworthy and are very difficult for non-career managers to deal with.[/i]

But you get paid to deal with it.
Paid.
Like people give you money to sort out exactly this kind of problem.

I'm not a 'career manager', but I have to deal with this kind of stuff every day along with all the other stuff that lands on me. I don't have the option to decide not to deal with it; I [i]have[/i] to deal with it.

...and if I get it wrong, I get judged and hammered.

The whole story sounds like someone needs to 'ave a word and get it sorted.

surprised this thread is still hear, the only thing more surprising than this is the people on hear that seam to think that its ok to pay people off, presumably because they dont effectively manage their staff.

i guess if the ops business is a small tightly family run business its possible they have not encountered staff like this before and are inexperienced in dealing with it. looking at this from a corporate perspective this is a mind boggling thread, suggest you start with acas or bis for support if your keeping this in house and not got proficient HR support...

May I suggest that the grumpy gits on this thread make an early start for their ride tomorrow? Far too much nastiness and it doesn't make good reading.

CG is right again 🙂

Interesting that it's always the employee's fault, never poor management.

[i]I get £40K a year.

I get it for being in charge of an Intensive Care unit, no car, no perks, working nights, working three weekends out of four.[/i]

Oohh matron!

My Mrs is often in charge of a HDU & she's only on 27K! hows that work out? Or did you mean your'e a manager of an IC unit?

It sounds like your company has a policy of employing everyone in a level above their capacity.

Yep, if someone managing a sales team brining in millions has to ask for management advice on a relatively obscure bike forum, they really, really shouldn't be in sales management. Sorry if that's rather harsh, but it is true.

Look - the OP realises the situation hasn't been handled well, he doesn't want a character assassination, just some sensible suggestions on how to deal with it.

[i]My Mrs is often in charge of a HDU & she's only on 27K! hows that work out?[/i]

I think it's because she's a lady. 😈

That's £40K all in; including nights, weekends, etc. Band 6..

Look - the OP realises the situation hasn't been handled well, he doesn't want a character assassination, just some sensible suggestions on how to deal with it.

"This chap has come from a competitor with 20 years experience, he's no newbie to this game."

This is your problem, he's a dinosaur and is doing what he has always done in his comfort zone. KPI's are there for your protection as much as the sales guys. If they can't or don't understand this, it forms part of their basic employment contract for my guys. Any of my guys would have been taken down disciplinary by now unless there is a valid reason.

I support everyone as far as i can, but ultimately there is a job to do. He's paid as a professional, so you expect this in return. Manage him out of the business or you'll suffer as a result, unless you have no other option but to keep him.

Manage him out of the business

Chicken wire, concrete... You get the picture..

It means make him want to leave, but try not to get sued for constructive dismissal. And it is a ****'s trick. Luckily, most people who sink to trying it are bad at it.

So it is constructive dismissal then.
Surely the solution should be positive.
1st meeting to identify what is going and why.
Address these problems and then give it time to see results.
Maybe the employee feels there isn't enough support or training, maybe the micro management makes them uneasy or even something else entirely.
2nd meeting to assess progress and offer more support to achieve results, I mean both sides want a positive result don't they and the employee has 20 good years behind him or the new company wouldn't have employed him, no?
IIRC this would then lead to the third meeting which would be D-day, at which point the training/support/environmental improvements will be in place in which case the employee goes on as a valued employee to enjoy a successful career or another, more suitable position is found for him.
Simples.

...which should all have been done a long, long time ago.

more suitable position is found for him.

Police commissioner ?

...which should all have been done a long, long time ago.

[i]Well, yes, but c-g is having a downer on negative posts and it's not to late to start the process. Better than spouting on about KPIs and dressing up constructive dismissal.[/i]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

Yes, ok, point taken.
Better to do it right a bit late rather than do it wrong now. 🙂

Geordie mick in your profile you give your full name also your location, so easy to track down the company you work for isnt it, i think a new job may be on the cards for you .

But thats just my opinion and it seems a few others share the same view.

Better to do it right a bit late rather than do it wrong now.

It seems to me that if you just sack him with little or no grounds then he has to fork out £20,000ish, which he probably hasn't got, to try and gainsay you through a tribunal. The world is run by fascist capitalist scccccccc afterall....so just sack everybody....and don't worry your pretty little head about it.

And make sure you sack your solicitor and all. He/she sounds useless.

Sack yourself.....then you won't have to worry anymore

40K a year and you say he broaght in over £300K sales last year? Sounds like he is making the company money so whats the problem

40K a year and you say he broaght in over £300K sales last year? Sounds like he is making the company money so whats the problem

If he can do the job, but can't be arsed, manage him out of the business on conduct.
If he can't do the job, throw in some training and get rid of him through capability.

Good luck also with advice on a public forum !

So glad I don't work in sales any more. it's like selling your soul to the devil while he rapes you, your mother and your wife (in no particular order) without cleaning himself in between.

I've just emailed you a shameless plug for the HR consultancy that my wife has recently set up. We're fairly local to you too.

So it's taken twelve months to figure out that this guy is not up to par? How did he pass the probationary period stipulated in his contract of employment?

Micro-managing the guy and breathing down his neck could easily backfire. You also have an obligation to allow a third party (nominated by the employee) to attend the disciplinary meeting too - it might pay to make him aware of this, especially if you suspect he's susceptible to stress.

Perhaps setting him a turnaround target as other posters have suggested is the best way forward? If you meet with the guy every few weeks during this time forward, you might be able to help him figure it out. After all, he's got twenty years experience, you might even make a model employee out of the guy. But you do need to explain to him that you're trying to help him to improve his performance.

There was me setting up my account to use this forum - and then I read this. You lot are unbelievable. I know this is the 'chat forum' but do you all have to be so boring, vindictive and juvenile? Here you are, talking about someones career in public, not by name but in what is probably a libelous manner - what happened to employer employee confidentiality? And then I read "Everyone working in the public sector is "f*ing lazy"? Thats the most hilarious thing I've ever read. If this thread is in any way representative of this forums users... I won't even bother using my account.

To be frank you need to get rid of him quick. Give him a POGO (perform or go) plan. As said before as give him a minimum a quarterly revenue target and review his plan to hit the target as part of the weekly review. If he's experienced he will know that the writing is on the wall and will jump before he's pushed.You need to formally notify him of that his failure to hit his previous target is concerning and the company cannot afford for this to continue hence the need to have a more defined process for analysing his performance.

You need to set targets for appointments, pipeline review (i.e. is he progressing his opportunities) and review weekly. You need to be quite blunt and say that you will be accompanying him on calls, not necessarily all of them but at least a 1/3rd of them, to coach him and identify why deals aren't happening (also to make sure he's going on them). Get him to copy you on correspondence with prospects, customers to make sure he's doing what you expect him to do. He may object but as he's so far short of target drastic action is called for to protect the company's position.

to coach him and identify why deals aren't happening

[quote=nukeproofriding ]There was me setting up my account to use this forum - and then I read this. You lot are unbelievable. I know this is the 'chat forum' but do you all have to be so boring, vindictive and juvenile? Here you are, talking about someones career in public, not by name but in what is probably a libelous manner - what happened to employer employee confidentiality? And then I read "Everyone working in the public sector is "f*ing lazy"? Thats the most hilarious thing I've ever read. If this thread is in any way representative of this forums users... I won't even bother using my account.
If you're upset by this thread, don't bother hanging around....

If this thread is in any way representative of this forums users... I won't even bother using my account.

Um.... lots of people have pointed out (rightly IMO) how unprofessional and inappropriate it was to even start this thread.

he doesn't want a character assassination, just some sensible suggestions on how to deal with it.

The answer is to go and ask a grown up.

First stop is with the inhouse lawyer, but if they're not up to the task, then buy in some legal advice. It'll be awful lot cheaper than this train wreck is otherwise going to turn out to be.

 

If you're upset by this thread, don't bother hanging around....

Probably wont.. 80% of the topics are about 'old age' operations people have had, how they can save weight for their 'race season' on their on one hardtail or about problems at work. Not my sort of bike forum clearly.

Um.... lots of people have pointed out (rightly IMO) how unprofessional and inappropriate it was to even start this thread.

Hmm. This is an accusation that gets thrown around a bit too often on here, but I wonder who else Nukeproofriding is?

[quote=nukeproofriding ]
Probably wont.. 80% of the topics are about 'old age' operations people have had, how they can save weight for their 'race season' on their on one hardtail or about problems at work. Not my sort of bike forum clearly.
See those buttons for "Bike Forum" and "Chat Forum"? You can use those to filter out most of the stuff you aren't interested in.

Northwind -

Hmm. This is an accusation that gets thrown around a bit too often on here, but I wonder who else Nukeproofriding is?

'Who else I am'? What does that mean? Anyway, on topic, OP should take this travesty of a post down and quit his job. Do you all work 10.30 to 4.30 jobs in a council office? Apparently all of us in the private sector are lazy ****ers and no one seemed to take offence to that, so you must all be on cushy wages with holidays coming out of your ears and no connection to the real world.

I didn't take offence because I don't even work 😆

20 years doing the same thing year on year rather than 20 years of business development and doing new things. Sometimes this is a good thing if he's doing it right, but it depends how those skills transfer to the new job.

My previous post was out of line. You really need to try and help the guy to get him to improve. Generally first year, will always be tough, so point him in the right direction and work with him to see where it goes , he might just need a bit of time to get out the cycle he was in previously.

only read page 1 so far but a few replies...

1) I've only been his manager for two months, him bumbling about for last twelve months is because we work for a small family firm who believed that when they took him on they should feel that someone of his age, experience and calibre should be capable of getting out of bed in the morning and doing a days work, without someone having to call him, get him out of bed and chase him out the door.

2) He won't find it on here, there's no link to my employer in my profile and this fella has absolutely no chance of finding this.

3)Why should I resign from my job?? I've come on here for opinions as the company I work for have left me in a position because their 'old family firm' of solicitors have left me in a position where they won't give an opinion either way. I thought that the plethora of STW armchair lawyers would have come up with something but instead, just like when someone posts up about BMW, Audi etc the envy mongers come out of their cave's and start getting personal because they got shit jobs and drive shit cars.......

2) He won't find it on here, there's no link to my employer in my profile and this fella has absolutely no chance of finding this.

As a sales manager myself, I fully sympathise, especially if you've inherited this guy.

I'd suggest he is suffering standard sales burnout.

Put together a performance plan with clear 2 way objectives and very clear timescales to turn things round, make them achievable goals so you can't be hit for constructive dismissal, then let it run it's course.

If you want, I have a number of very good bits of paperwork I use for stuff like this that I can send you.

Oh and check out Sean McPheat's sales training and management site. Lots of very good resource there.

Let me know if you want any direct advice!

wow-- OP-- knickers are twisted there, fwiw, i ride bikes, cars are not important, shit job-- don't deal with them--

as for you and your 'problem'-- best to deal with it in a professional manner.