[Closed] HR advice - secondments

Out of interest, whats the opinion on management calling up nurseries in the area to confirm my childcare costs, getting quotes and suggesting I move to a cheaper one they have found so I can reduce my childcare burden thus making the secondment more attractive?
Personally, I think it is completely out of order but nothing surprises me with this lot after the last week!

Jesus!
So not only would Daddy not be there to read them a bedtime story they'd have to make new friends and change their routine too. Not fair on them or your missus.
Have they actually done/threatened this? Turds of the first order if they have. I thought this sort of management went out in the 80s.

Wow

Sounds like you work for an absolute bunch of arseholes.

You have my sympathy

Out of interest, what line of work are you in?

If you are under 2 years and they don't need a reason to sack you, as some suggest, then why would they try and manage you out? Just let you go. Also, as the manager of an ICT Dept., there is no way that I would want an unhappy employee on a client site. It sounds to me that the contract is not progressing how they expected and putting in a cheaper resource in shared accommodation may well turn things around without impacting profits. Either way, TJ's advice on this would be well heeded.

[i]and believe that we're all 'replaceable'.[/i]

We are.

[i]Unfortunately your childcare costs etc are your problem[/i]

Even if the only reason that additional childcare is required is the 'secondment'?

as above what do you do, and is the company uk based or from some other country with different values towards its workforce.

I'm really intrigued as to whether the employers are UK based*, their attitude is shocking. Seems a clear attempt to make you walk.

Or constructive dismissal, as a lawyer might like to think of it?

[*Obviously, we all really want you to name and shame, but we know that you can't}

Does is start with a W and end with an O?

You might want to consider the significance here of how expecting you to stay away from home, travel in your own time and demanding you move your kids child care in order to accommodate their requests might amount to indirect sex discrimination - have any women been asked to do the same?

I certainly wouldn't be politely telling them to get ****ed. I would be directly and rudely telling them to get ****ed in precisely those terms.

I am a project engineer working in Oil and Gas but as of this week transitioning back in to the defence industry which I recently left to take this job. This is a small UK consultancy.

if you give them enough rope they'll hang themselves and do something which is and so give you leverage

That is my thinking at the moment

So not only would Daddy not be there to read them a bedtime story they'd have to make new friends and change their routine too. Not fair on them or your missus.
Have they actually done/threatened this? Turds of the first order if they have.

Exactly, expecting my wife to deal with a 15 month old child on her own 5 days a week is unacceptable to me. Yes they have done this and I have the screen shots of the instant messages to prove it.

Sounds like you work for an absolute bunch of arseholes.

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner!

why would they try and manage you out

I don't think they are trying to manage me out. This is a project management role and I am the only person there with proven project management experience of large complex projects. Plus they will be charging me out as a senior engineer but are paying me slightly higher than a graduate so the profits will be higher helping the none to good bottom line.

Does is start with a W and end with an O?

Nope

You might want to consider the significance here of how expecting you to stay away from home, travel in your own time and demanding you move your kids child care in order to accommodate their requests might amount to indirect sex discrimination - have any women been asked to do the same?

That thought has crossed my mind and is part of the giving them rope to hang themselves strategy. I am expecting the next suggestion to be my wife giving up work to be a full time housewife.

I'm afraid that at under 2y employent unless they really **** up somehow (sex discrimination is possible but a long shot) you have next to no chance of then "hanging themselves" to any significant degree. Best to just refuse the secondment and hope to find a new job more quickly than they manage to sack you. If you are really close to 2y it might be worth trying to hang on until then but even if you might "win" life's too short to waste it on arseholes. TJ's advice is good of course, his departure was a sad loss to the STW community.

Despite what you still believe that youre important to the company, youre not, and quite a few of have pointed it out theyre doing their best to alienate you, like sending you away, paying no traveling expences, telling you to share a flat, ring child care providors to look for cheaper prices etc.

And all this when youve less than 2 years service with the company, threyre pushing till you resign, and it costs them nothing, and in the nxt few days they will have more little straws to load your shoulders with, till you finally leave.

This is a project management role and I am the only person there with proven project management experience of large complex projects.

What are the consequences of them failing to deliver the project on time, and would that definitely happen if you didn't go? I.e, if they had to employ someone else competent quickly, is that possible or would there be serious risk.

If there are serious consequences and you aren't easily replaceable (lots of specialist knowledge) I think you should continue to negotiate until you're happy. You're in a strong position. Keep looking for a new job.

If limited consequences and easy to replace within a few weeks, refuse and put maximum effort into job hunting.

Either way, their behaviour isn't what I'd expect from a good employer and your best long term future would be away from them.

Agree with project.

I'd roll with it to the extent you can while you find another job/go contracting. Unless you can afford the gap, in which case walk.

Remember, if they sack you there's no reference. Better to walk with head held high and reference in pocket.

Good luck.

This sounds utterly horrible and I just wanted to sympathise and concur with much of the advice above, not least that from the much missed TJ who also gave me useful words at a point in time when I needed them.

It never ceases to amaze me how employers think it's Ok to screw people into the ground. Family first always, do what's best for you & them, exit under your terms with your sense of self intact.

Project, I have no illusions that I am important to them nor that I cannot be replaced. Having said that this has come completely out of the blue and their offer is the standard they offer anyone who goes on secondment (such as the two guys already up there). Whilst the offer suits them as they are young, single and have no commitments, what they have offered is not suitable for my circumstances hence my rejecting it.

If I do not go the secondment will be offered to another company and 6-24 months of work will go to a competitor. It starts next week so not time for my employer to find a replacement to go.

If I do not go the secondment will be offered to another company and 6-24 months of work will go to a competitor. It starts next week so not time for my employer to find a replacement to go.

Expensive lesson for your employer to learn. Treating your staff reasonably can mean the difference between losing and making money.

Im really interested as to who the employer actually is as well as the best possible outcome for the OP of course.

If I do not go the secondment will be offered to another company and 6-24 months of work will go to a competitor. It starts next week so not time for my employer to find a replacement to go.

Sounds like you have the perfect bargaining position to just turn around and say "look, if you want me to do this, then you need to take a step back and [u]seriously[/u] reconsider what you are offering me to make it worthwhile, not least due to the effect on my wife and kids" and put the ball entirely back in their court.

[quote=project ]And all this when youve less than 2 years service with the company, threyre pushing till you resign, and it costs them nothing, and in the nxt few days they will have more little straws to load your shoulders with, till you finally leave.

Hanlon's razor needs to be applied here - as mentioned before, if they wanted to get rid of him with less than 2 years service they could just sack him.

[quote=jonm81 ]If I do not go the secondment will be offered to another company and 6-24 months of work will go to a competitor. It starts next week so not time for my employer to find a replacement to go.

So you actually have a [b]lot[/b] more leverage than you've previously suggested!

This is a project management role and I am the only person there with proven project management experience of large complex projects.

Right then, slightly different advice at this point but...

On the kids and nursery thing about 10 years ago I'd have kicked off big style at something like this, these days I get the most senior person in a room and explain that perhaps their ideas on being helpful are not that clever.

You should know or be able to get right up to speed with the financials of the project. What is in the budget for travel?

If a project is so screwed that it needs a 5 day a week on site PM then it's buggered. Either that or you are working with the old guard who just want to see/touch something to prove it's real.

I've been in this one before, was asked to do 5 days a week and it was expected. further questioning and it was essential. So I got the hire car and hotels booked and went down there. After 2 weeks got to the point where people were sick of me being there waiting for the "essential"information or meetings that never were. They had my mobile number I went down Tuesday mornings and came back Thursday night. Again on real expenses.

OP, have you re-read your contract? I'm seeing a few things here that suggest that working away from home may have been expected. You work for a consultancy, so all work is expected to be client work. You've worked away from home before, mentioned your wife had to look after your kids on evenings.

I'm not saying what your company is doing is right, far from it, but you may want to be careful when looking at route like constructive dismissal. And I don't disagree with a lot of the advice you've been given, but some of it is very much assuming you have a contract that says you work for one company in one place all the time.

To me, it sounds like pretty standard request to work away from home on a client project. I do this all the time for one of the big IT consultancies. It's expected for me, and written into my contract that I'm expected to be fully mobile. Stuff like childcare is no concern of the company ever. But costs to travel to client site, four star hotel nearby, evening meals and reasonable sundries expensed are all taken care of. Travel time to site, over and above normal commute to base office is taken out of client time. This applies to all 260,000 consultants of all types from junior developer to the most senior CTOs.

If I refused to do this, I'd be out on my ear as it's my job.

If a project is so screwed that it needs a 5 day a week on site PM then it's buggered. Either that or you are working with the old guard who just want to see/touch something to prove it's real.

Not necessarily. I've been on a projects where hundreds of staff are based on client sites. Multiple PMs included. It's the most cost effective way of running a large project often.

I'd roll with it to the extent you can while you find another job/go contracting. Unless you can afford the gap, in which case walk.

I'd expect in the contracting world the requirement to travel to a job be even higher. Certainly in IT this is the case if you want good roles.

2) refuse the transfer ( it is not a secondment) in writing giving your reasons all laid out carefully after you have taken legal advice

It may not be either a secondment or a transfer, it may just be regular client site work.

4) Prepare to be threatened with the sack and counter this with a threat to sue for breach of contract

It may very well not be a breach of contract either.

Over the years of doing consultancy I've work with consultants who haven't gone into client facing roles with their eyes open and been 'surprised' when they've been asked to work somewhere other than their base office. Please, re-check your contract.

OP, have you re-read your contract? I'm seeing a few things here that suggest that working away from home may have been expected. You work for a consultancy, so all work is expected to be client work. You've worked away from home before, mentioned your wife had to look after your kids on evenings.

The exact wording "Your place of work is [i]address of head office[/i]. You will be expected to travel to meet the requirements of your role, however, you will not be expected to work away for more than 1 week at a time"

My role is then described as office based at the head office address. although we are a consultancy all work is carried out in our offices except secondments or the odd day or two at a client site.

This is definitely a secondment and not working at a client site.

I have already worked over 2 months out of the last year away from home in this job but the terms for that work were different.

Im really interested as to who the employer actually is as well as the best possible outcome for the OP of course.

Depending on how the conversation goes this morning you may well find out.

old guard who just want to see/touch something to prove it's real.

I think this is exactly the reasoning for being at client site 5 days a week. There is nothing that can't be done via phone or video conferencing rather than on the clients site especially since I have offered to be there 3 days a week.

The exact wording "Your place of work is address of head office. You will be expected to travel to meet the requirements of your role, however, you will not be expected to work away for more than 1 week at a time"

My role is then described as office based at the head office address. although we are a consultancy all work is carried out in our offices except secondments or the odd day or two at a client site.

This is definitely a secondment and not working at a client site.

Fair enough, thanks for that. Good luck.

But costs to travel to client site, four star hotel nearby, evening meals and reasonable sundries expensed are all taken care of. Travel time to site, over and above normal commute to base office is taken out of client time. This applies to all 260,000 consultants of all types from junior developer to the most senior CTOs.

what wreaker said.

what has been offered is not a typical deal for whats expected.

its a typical deal for a uni leaver exploitation work experiance......

Its not a deal for an employee you wish to retain (unless such was written into his contract and renumeration for such built into his basic pay)

As said previously, the OP needs to just negotiate a better deal.

Like many on here I've spent weeks/months working away (over the last 20-25 years), but have always ensured I'm not 'out of pocket' (by hook or by crook 😉 ). Standard company expenses should cover his costs of travel/away, in fact lots of people still make a profit from them.

And his contract saying 'away for only a week at a time' should just mean that he can expense each weeks' travel.

IMO the OP needs to accept that this is the world and learn to work with it, or find another job. Sorry.

"And his contract saying 'away for only a week at a time' should just mean that he can expense each weeks' travel."

Meanwhile his boss says he is allowed 1 trip a month home.....

Well, I have withdrawn from the secondment on the grounds of financial loss, loss of family and private life and lack of ability to properly care for dependents whilst away. No negotiation was entertained by management. I am continuing to work on the project I was already on "for the time being". As such I will not be naming and shaming as much as I would like to.

I will, however, be moving on as soon as possible.

Thanks for all the advice given.

IMO the OP needs to accept that this is the world and learn to work with it, or find another job. Sorry.

And the race to the bottom continues, hurrah!

OP - sounds like you made the right call, if it's really that big a deal I suspect they'll be back to negotiate, if they're prepared to let it go then that's their loss.

IMO the OP needs to accept that this is the world and learn to work with it, or find another job. Sorry.

If I do not go the secondment will be offered to another company and 6-24 months of work will go to a competitor. It starts next week so not time for my employer to find a replacement to go.

Get yourself incorporated and get bidding.

And the race to the bottom continues, hurrah!

Exactly.

OP, you made the right decision. The company doesn't mind charging the client top dollar, but doesn't want to share the wealth....screw em.

A firm is only as good as the people that work for them.

@jonm81 - judging by the language you use is the head office you work in any where near Box Hill by any chance? And given the 150 miles does the secondment happen to be for an organisation which shares a name and history with the makers of fancy cars (in fact do both organisations?).

I think you've just killed your own argument there. Your situation is nothing like the OPs.

I disagree. Our engagements are long running. Often years long were I travel to client site on a weekly basis and only go home on a weekend.

judging by the language you use is the head office you work in any where near Box Hill by any chance?

Close but 1 county out.

And given the 150 miles does the secondment happen to be for an organisation which shares a name and history with the makers of fancy cars (in fact do both organisations?).

I am not going to name the client except, as stated earlier, that the secondment was in Norwich where the riding sucks.

@bensales But were you aware of that when you took on the role? I'm sure many people are in jobs requiring work away from home but the OPs situation is different in that he's effectively being asked to change his role and would end up worse off (not just financially) with no attempt by his company to reach a workable solution. I'm surprised he wasn't looking for another job already if he's paid 20% under his current grading (and should be on a higher grade anyway).

I disagree. Our engagements are long running. Often years long were I travel to client site on a weekly basis and only go home on a weekend.

I disagree. Our engagements are long running. Often years long were I travel to client site on a weekly basis and only go home on a weekend.

And presumably you're amply compensated for this inconvenience. It sounds like the OP is being asked to dip into his own pocket for this pleasure.

ah, ok I missed the Norwich bit. Not the company I was thinking of then!

that the secondment was in Norwich where the riding sucks.

Being away from home is fine, missing the wife and kids is fine, being away from home is all fine.

But Norwich!?!?

bensales - Member

I think you've just killed your own argument there. Your situation is nothing like the OPs.

I disagree. Our engagements are long running. Often years long were I travel to client site on a weekly basis and only go home on a weekend.

At the very lowest point I worked for a company for 6 months with a similar attitude, we got 60 Quid per day to cover Meals and Accommodation at the time a travel inn cost 59. Nothing motivates people more than treating them like shit.

If I do not go the secondment will be offered to another company and 6-24 months of work will go to a competitor. It starts next week so not time for my employer to find a replacement to go.

And they are not prepared to move closer to the terms you want? That's an odd way to run a business.

As I am no longer employed there as of 16:00 today (was given 30 mins notice to get out), for those of you who wanted to know which company this was it rhymes with Wee Ltd and is based in a county just south east of London. This is a bit cryptic as they have an internet watch for anything mentioning the company name or location.

Good engineers but management leaves a lot to be desired.

Hey ho, on-wards and up-wards and all that.