[Closed] HR advice - secondments

secondment allowance is tax free and can be quite generous...

You can't be forced to do anything but your role could be made redundant if there was no work for you to do ie somebody else takes the secondment and you don't have a job left.

Travel costs etc. should come under the allowance or just do it as straight claimable expenses.

If you do go see if you can get a shared house or small flat rented it's cheaper overall and so much better than a hotel.

Finally whats the biking like 150 miles away.

PS I may have spent 10 of the last 15 years bouncing around the place for work...

You can't be forced unless its a change of contract?

Raise a grievance

If there is a pressing business need you could ultimatley be sacked, but you'd have a good case for constructive dismissal

Will they give you allowances for the extra expenses? I spent several years on a secondment in London and I made a killing on the allowances.

+1 for allowances.

Ours used to be enough to live on, which meant you could pretty much bank your salary. Apparently a bit more mean now, but still enough to make it worthwhile.

How long for?

I know that you can't just be moved like that. 10 miles? Sure, but 150? No way.

IIRC, by moving you a distance like that it gets treated as a redundancy so they have to pay you off as such (if you don't want the job). The missus' job was moved about 100 miles away and offered to her in the new location. She didn't want to move but didn't get any redundancy payout as she'd been there less than 2 years. Her longer serving colleagues did get the payout though.

If you do want it then they I'd have thought they should be paying your travel costs as well as your accommodation/moving fees.

In this situation I would as if the 5 days has to be 5 full days or 40 hours. There may be some room for flexibility.

Regarding the traveling expenses they should reimburse all reasonable expenses.

I know that you can't just be moved like that. 10 miles? Sure, but 150? No way.

My secondment I think I got travel time to and from home each week - 150miles - about 3hrs? so thats 6hrs a week off the working week. If it came to it I'd be looking to do 4 day weeks and have friday off. Have some room to maneuver, perhaps agree 3 months with an aim to resolve it.

Thanks for the replies. The allowance is £35 per day which does not even cover the additional childcare I will have to pay let alone food, travel, etc. It will cost me around £175 per week to take the secondment. Accommodation is paid for but will be sharing a 2 bed flat with another two guys who are already there.

The travel time will be unpaid and will amount to around 8 hrs round trip. This will mean I will have to leave on a Sunday afternoon and won't get home until late Friday night giving me a whole 1 1/2 days a week with my daughter and 1/2 a day a week with my wife (she works Saturdays).

There is other work to do here but I suspect if I refuse it may be the redundancy route that is taken. Been here less than 2 years so that will mean no payout.

The riding around Norwich sucks and no climbing either so I wouldn't even have those to enjoy. I might as well buy a road bike as there are no hills in Norfolk!

Thanks for the replies. The allowance is £35 per day which does not even cover the additional childcare I will have to pay let alone food, travel, etc. It will cost me around £175 per week to take the secondment. Accommodation is paid for but will be sharing a 2 bed flat with another two guys who are already there.

Oh and get some proper independant HR advice and make sure you read all the companies HR docs on travel etc.

That is a proper crap deal. As you rightly point out, it is not just about financial cost, it is family time and upheaval.

For the sake of avoiding redundancy it might be worth trying to thrash out a compromise deal, something like 3 days there, two days at home. That shows willing but stops you being shafted.

Good luck though, doesn't sound like you are in a good situation at all.

What!!!!! So it's a two bed flat, but there'll be 3 of you???

Who gets top bunk???

That really is complete crap, if that's how they treat their staff I'd be looking for a new job.

I hope you can sort things out so you don't get shafted.

"What!!!!! So it's a two bed flat, but there'll be 3 of you???"

hotbedding suppliment..... best take a sleeping bag and some flea powder....

Three blokes - two bedrooms !

My concern would be
1. two people appear to accepted something to be already in a flat if you kick off and they didnt then you are obviously a trouble maker
- what did they accept (and are they moving same distance / married etc)

2. an employer that cheap would likely choose absolute minimum severance - ie zero.

need to get existing blokes onboard that it is not OK to share bedrooms.

I would expect to expense all travel costs and get an allowance for the travel time

I am sure you will be more then happy to get in the management frame of mind when they stop treating you like Sports direct

Give ACAS a call to get some proper advice.

They are not responsible for things like your child care costs.

Nope, it's not but if it makes it unviable from a financial perspective (ie. I cannot afford the to pay the extra) due to a situation of their creating then it will impact on my response to being sent away. Plus I am pretty sure there is something in employment law surrounding the need to look after dependents and employers putting you in a position where you can't.

Oh and get some proper independant HR advice and make sure you read all the companies HR docs on travel etc.

I have read the staff handbook but it is very vague. The only HR person in the company is on holiday for the next 2 weeks. Any ideas where to go for alternative HR advice (other than here obviously)?

What!!!!! So it's a two bed flat, but there'll be 3 of you???

Who gets top bunk???

2 singles in one room and a double in the other. As the oldest and most senior if I go whoever is in the double can consider themselves evicted

I'd be looking for a new job.

Just waiting for responses from various applications

utter bilge but unfortunately as you ve been there less than 2 years you havent a leg to stand on.. my old employers used such 'secondments' to make folks leave and if they didnt they were made redundant when they finished..

Are you in a role where work on client site is contractually expected, even though you haven't to date?

If yes, then I would expect them to pay travel to client site, pay accommodation there, pay food (that's your £35 allowance), and take travelling time over and above your normal commuting time out of work hours. This is what my employer does and I do regularly but my job is expected to have work on client site.

If no, and your contract is for a role based solely at your head office then politely decline, but expect the negative consequences that may come.

I suspect your contract will have some weasel words like 'the company expects Joe Bloggs to work hours and at locations necessary to support the business'. In which case, ACAS.

I'd be questioning a lot of things there, not least your expectations and right to privacy. Shared rooms, WTF?

To be frank it sounds like they're trying to get rid of you and if not then they might as well have, if you have any sense at all you'll be looking for a new job.

Just waiting for responses from various applications

Wish you luck.

I'm not a massive fan of Unions as I sometimes think they push things too far....but this is definitely one case where there assistance would be helpful.

Secondment and moving are 2 different things.

Looks like they want you out, silly terms and conditions that very few would accept, thus you leave or they sack you it appears.

Looks like they want you out

Not so much that but I am the lowest paid engineer in the company and have been working on a PV funded project. I have been "chosen" as it gives them the biggest profit whilst moving me onto a customer funded project.

I can see the business sense but their route to getting there sucks.

Plus if they actually paid me the salary of the grade they will be charging me out as (or even paid me the same as everyone else my grade, currently I'm on about 20% less) I wouldn't be so pissed.

My alternative offer will be:-
2 days head office, 3 days client office (all 5 days on client project)
All travel expenses paid over and above the allowance
All travel time paid (or accrued and taken as time off in lieu)

I think this would be fair and would be acceptable from my perspective.

In the mean time, look for new opportunities.

At least it appears I am not being totally unreasonable. Thanks for all your responses.

That's terrible. It would be crap enough to be that far from home 5 days a week (and the travel) even staying in a proper hotel with all costs covered.

Politely decline the secondment, look for a new job elsewhere while they figure out how to get rid of you.

had a chat with someone today around this.. the travel time must be considered as part of your working hours.. as you have a base and they are asking you to work at another..

At under 2y employment you are effectively sackable anyway with little recourse. I wonder if they would even have offered this if they really wanted you out. Anyway, it seems your options are (1) to refuse and see if they sack you, (2) take the move as offered, or (3) try to negotiate something better (money/time off or whatever). I'd try the third option first unless I was desperate to leave anyway...

You are certainly not being unreasonable to think they are taking the piss!

Well, after meeting today and trying to negotiate the offer was:-

Shared accommodation
£35 per day whilst away
No travel time
Expenses for 1 trip home a month

So the outcome is they can get f***ed.

and their response? (I would be looking for another job at this point even just for options)

So the outcome is they can get f***ed.

Fair play. Use all your energy to find something else, let them boot you out and wait for Karma to take care of things.

Utter wangers. Total disregard for their staff.

Best of luck, I'm happy for you that you will stand your ground.

You've made the right choice, however tough it may feel.

How do they expect people to work professionally while being screwed over like that?

and for reference work travel away for me means on the clock from the minute I leave the front door till when I get back (obviously evenings away not included in that) and 3 meals a day + incidentals and fuel/travel costs covered. Needs to be a good reason to drop below that.

That is a really bad offer from them. I'd jump as well.

and for reference work travel away for me means on the clock from the minute I leave the front door till when I get back (obviously evenings away not included in that) and 3 meals a day + incidentals and fuel/travel costs covered. Needs to be a good reason to drop below that.

what he said.

i also get a day rate that basically covers my hourly rate for the 16 hours i would normally be at home.....plus uplift for hardship for certain countries/locations but i do 4-6 weeks at a time - and if they didnt i wouldnt be doing it.

what they have offered is a shambles.

Recent EU directives mean that travel time is considered part of your working day if you do not have a permanent office location, or you are travelling to a location that is not your permanent location.

A commute (regardless of duration) to your permanent office is not considered part of your working day.

Your working week cannot be greater than 48 hours, unless you have opted out.

From what I understand, if with travel time you are paid less than the hourly wage then you should be able to demand additional payment, however if you are paid over min wage then your company don't need to pay you more.

You mentioned that you're waiting for the HR person, don't mistake their loyalties...they are paid by the company and should make sure than no employment laws are broken (to avoid future court cases), but they won't fight your corner.

and for reference work travel away for me means on the clock from the minute I leave the front door till when I get back (obviously evenings away not included in that) and 3 meals a day + incidentals and fuel/travel costs covered. Needs to be a good reason to drop below that.

That is what I would expect and what I got in previous jobs.

I have been told that if I do split working (home office 2 days and client office 3 days) then I will not be entitled to any of whats offered above but they will pay for fuel at 20p per mile and up to 3 hrs travel per week.

It has been heavily suggested that if I don't take it there will be no work for me here implying redundancy.

Oh well, they can still get stuffed!

Fair play. Use all your energy to find something else, let them boot you out and wait for Karma to take care of things.

With the oil price and current management tactics Karma is already kicking at the door.

Hi

Long banned TJ here

I was having my occasional read of STW when bored and saw your post. The company are clearly extracting the urine.

Firstly travel time is on works time not your own if you are moving from your usual base and also counts against the working time directive ie 11 hours off between shifts max 48 hour week etc
Secondly if your contract does not say overnights away are expected they cannot enforce this – certainly not for more than the occasional night away
Thirdly all reasonable expenses must be covered including all your commute costs and any other costs incurred such as childcare
Finally they have to be “family friendly” to a basic extent and will probably have policies on this.

In your position I would simply refuse this. It’s a change of your terms and conditions and cannot be done without your consent. Dismissing you for refusing a change in contact would be unfair dismissal although given your less than 2 years service this would be hard to get although you could sue for breach of contract. You cannot be made redundant for this. You can only be sacked. Check the TUC webpage for help – its actually quite good

Unfortunately I think what is actually happening here is you are being managed out before your 2 years are up. I think your best bet is to get proper legal advice from either your union or a experienced employment lawyer. Try your local law centre for help

I think the best outcome for you is likely to be a compromise agreement where they pay you to shut up and go away. You should be looking at something like 6 months wages for this.

Another line would be hang on untill you have completed two years and then resign and sue for constructive dismissal. High probability you would win

1) get proper legal advice – I am an ex union rep but not up to date

2) refuse the transfer ( it is not a secondment) in writing giving your reasons all laid out carefully after you have taken legal advice

3) even if they insist you still keep on turning up at your usual place of work at your usual time – do not say “ I’ll try it for a month / 3 days a week” as this would weaken your position.

4) Prepare to be threatened with the sack and counter this with a threat to sue for breach of contract

5) Accept a compromise agreement to walk away

Hi TJ, thanks for circumventing the ban hammer to provide detailed advice.

My plan very much follows your advice in that providing a well reasoned refusal, preparing for the consequences and standing my ground regarding payoffs or threatening court action if dismissed as insinuated.

Out of interest, whats the opinion on management calling up nurseries in the area to confirm my childcare costs, getting quotes and suggesting I move to a cheaper one they have found so I can reduce my childcare burden thus making the secondment more attractive?
Personally, I think it is completely out of order but nothing surprises me with this lot after the last week!

"whats the opinion on management calling up nurseries in the area to confirm my childcare costs, getting quotes and suggesting I move to a cheaper one"

out of order - doesn't make the secondment more attractive , it makes working for that lot less attractive....

I'd ask them if they would move their kids to a new nursery so they could spend 4 nights a week away from home sharing a room with someone. I'd expect they would say no.

Stick to your guns, I second staff out but only where I think it will be beneficial, isn't a burden and is discussed and agreed upfront. I also don't people into roles I wouldn't do myself. Look for another job, how you care for your children has no relevance to your employer.

"whats the opinion on management calling up nurseries in the area to confirm my childcare costs, getting quotes and suggesting I move to a cheaper one"

Out of interest, whats the opinion on management calling up nurseries in the area to confirm my childcare costs, getting quotes and suggesting I move to a cheaper one they have found so I can reduce my childcare burden thus making the secondment more attractive?

Are they having a laugh? It's not up to your employer to decide where your kids spend their day. That really is laughable.

[quote=jonm81 ]Out of interest, whats the opinion on management calling up nurseries in the area to confirm my childcare costs, getting quotes and suggesting I move to a cheaper one they have found so I can reduce my childcare burden thus making the secondment more attractive?

😯

I doubt there's anything illegal about them doing that, though it does make me wonder whether if you give them enough rope they'll hang themselves and do something which is and so give you leverage (particularly if HR is away - as mentioned above, I'm sure they'd have advised against doing that).

<my opinion, not TJ's>

If you want to stay working with them you'll need to negotiate better.

Although is it an 'Indian' based consultancy? Only ask as I've seen these kinda thoughts before, ie not understanding UK/European/US 'rules' and believe that we're all 'replaceable'.

I'd be looking for 45ppm for all travel, ie every weekly, and a 4 days in 5 type agreement (arrive Monday mid-morning, leave Friday mid-afternoon. The £35per day is plenty and will cover breakfast/lunch/dinner. As for sharing, fine but I'd want my own room and a cleaner engaged.

Unfortunately your childcare costs etc are your problem, but I'd still ask for an allowance to help (this will be taxed though).

I'd be ever so politely telling them to get ****ed and if the nursery has given out any personal information they'd be getting some grief as well.