[Closed] HR advice - been called into the office at a moments notice...

You've been tagged. You'll never fit there again.

Regard yourself as no longer bound to them, and take every action to your maximum advantage from this point.

Be tough, objective, and use legal muscle to get you the best possible deal. Remember they are not your friends, so don't get sucked into any matey arrangements. They want to get rid of you as cheaply as possible.

Try to get out with the maximum and written references.

bombers are in the post mate....send em back when your finished with them (cleaned!!!)

Sorry to hear the news.

As per the above advice regarding employment law and bomber postage but also try and find opportunities to gain access to their unguarded shoes. Keep your bladder as full as possible just in case the opportunity arises.

Seems like they have missed out the consultancy part of the process i.e. maybe they should have informed all 5 sales managers that redundancies are going to be made initially, and clearly stated the criteria they are going to use - see http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_money/employment/redundancy___an_introduction/redundancy___procedures_your_employer_must_follow.htm for more details.

Get yourself the best legal advice you can - it will help reduce the stress on you, and hopefully will maximise any payout!

Good luck!!

Gutted for you, as I said before been in this situation twice (luckily / unluckily the third redundancy was handled more professionally).

Sounds like they've zeroed in on you, also sounds like they probably haven't followed procedures fully.

A couple of really good point made above which I'd definitely echo.

You've been tagged. You'll never fit there again.

I sadly suspect you're not so much as fighting your corner as negotiating the terms of your exit.

Not right, not fair but reality. You have two choices really, accept the inevitable, hold your head high and get out with as much as you can or try and fight it.

The first isn't right but in the long run will probably leave you in a better place mentally (which is very important when looking for another job) and financially.

The second option is what you ought to do but I wouldn't recommend it. It'll take a lot of time, possibly money and emotional committment and will result in you either keeping your job (as a marked man) or still losing your job but being emotionnaly shattered and having wasted potential months of job search time whilst your redundancy money filters away.

By all means question their process, selection criteria and even bluff that you are going to get legal advice. They'll probably bump up your hand out, whether it ends up tax free is complex issue.

My advice is accept what's happening and try and move on with your life as quickly as possible. Despite all the union work over the years employment still isn't fair and transparent, never will be, particular for salaried employees, don't end up fighting someone elses dogmatic battle, it's easy for others to recommend lawyers, fighting the decision etc., it's not that straight forward in the real world. Good luck, keep your chin up, don't burn your bridges. It's hell now but you will get through it, I have 3 times, not sure I'd manage a fourth 🙄 .

Keep us posted.

Bit overwhelmed to come back and find so much support and advice - Thanks STW!!! I was updating last night via my blackberry (sorry my companies BB) so saved this for now after I had a rest.

Number of things really annoy me about this process.

Already feel like I'm being treated like I'm an ex-employee. No one will talk to me and be honest about what is happening. Its obvious that they have a plan but they won't tell me what it is - Bastards do they think I am a fool!!! I know they have to follow a process but even my boss who I used to work with in the same team and is / was a friend hasn't even had a quiet world in trust.

I had the meeting and couldn't believe I'd driven in and 10minutes later it was over. Certain points that came out I'm really not happy with:

1. The fact that out of 5 people who are employed as CSMs in the Telco team and are assigned specific Telecoms clients, I'm the only one going and I signalled earlier in the year I had spare capacity and I could take on another big client - so the fact that one of my colleagues has just one client like me, has been with the company a third of the time I have, is a baffoon and hasn't sold as much new business this year as me really pisses me off as I could easily do his job and mine!!!

2. I was expected to drop everything and attend this meeting and then another meeting the following day. The second meeting is to allow me to collect my thoughts and so on, but actually having it so soon gives me no time to do anything.

3. When talking about when we could have the next meeting I advised I would contact them when I was ready - to which I got the reply "Any delays to the consultation process wouldn't stop the outcome happening in the expected timescales" - How the **** do they know what the timescales for the outcome would be if they don't know what the outcome will be yet???

4. How can the position be made redundant supporting this customer but someone will carry on supporting this customer once the redundancy is made?? Surely that doesn't mean the role is redundant? Especially as the customer is still spending millions of pounds with the company. Admittedly the revenue has dropped by a third this year due to the recession in the housing market and because of severe cost cutting client side. But if this isn't performance related then it must be head count and in that case the person who is getting the BT account should also be up there as I can do that job too... in fact I could do it much better if it is who I think it is

5. The HR guy was really up his ass, condascending, smug **** and I was really tempted to give him a kicking and cave his face in and fit is with bat guano!!

6. They didn't really explain the process, only through me asking did I find out what the next steps were and then I'm not really any wiser on what I need to do or prepare for this next meeting - they mentioned something about mitigation and being formally notified - mitigation for what? Am I supposed to convince them that I am the best man for my job ahead of ...??... oops forgot I'm the only person up for this process!!

On the whole I am really pissed off with the process and rationale used so far. Not pissed off with the fact I am having a change in my life as a change is as good as a rest.

Looks like they have a game plan and its giving me the heave ho and getting rid of headcount or another position in the company (I was offered one a few months ago but the position wasn't in my favor so I turned it down after being told it wouldn't affect my position and I was advised by one of the other senior directors I know well only to take it if there was something in it for me which there wasn't, but I know that there is a team of CSMs which is under-resourced quite badly)

Either way, I'm chilled about it. I've done the sums and even with a minimal payout I can survive for 6-9months.

TBH honest even if they give me a new role I'm gonna look at new jobs and see what is out there as the way I've been treated is bad.

PS. Had a great ride last night - just what I needed to chill out - Managed to get a barend to the sideburn and now have a lump on my face but its all good!!

Managed to get a barend to the sideburn and now have a lump on my face but its all good!!

Now that gives me an idea of how to negotiate your exit package!!

[img] [/img]

Oh - that's Edward Norton from the office scene, sorry best pic i could get!

Just got into work and started reading through this again to catch up...

When I went trhoguh the same thing last year it was a lot more transparent and they had a "points score" thing for each chemist stating things like timekeeping, ability, Health & Safety etc and the company *should* have done the same with each of it's 5 Sales Managers and that should have been explained to you.

On the other hand with only 1 or 2 redundancies they don't have to give you any notice (if it's >20 they have to have a consultation period).

You have the right to a copy of any written notes that HR take in these meetings (they *are* taking notes aren't they?), you can also see the points scoring criteria used to decide why you should be the one to go. You can be accompanied in these meetings by a colleague/union rep/solicitor, that person is entitled to ask questions but not to answer questions on your behalf.
A lot depends on how long you've been there as to your rights of any severance package, you'll have to have a look on CAB or similar for that. If they're not following procedure and it's not documented to the nth degree you've probably got a case for constructive dismissal.

What I would do now is get real good advice, let them hang themselves and once they have decided that you are to be made redundant in an unfair process inform them you will be going to tribunal for unfair dismissal.

It will cost them a lot of money to defend the tribunal - and more if you win ( altho tribunal winnings are not high generally as they only cover you for what you have lost)

Then negotiate a settlement not to go to tribunal

This approach once netted me £7000 when I was only entitled to £400.

You need real good advice tho.

Genuinely sorry to hear the news Bushwacked.

Had a similar experience a while back, and it properly ****ed me up. The most destructive element for me was trying to figure the "why me" question. Often there are no valid answers, so for what its worth my best advice is to follow the advice given above, keep records, contemporaneous notes, take advice, negotiate the best possible deal etc etc, but whatever you do don't waste your energy on the rights and wrongs of it once its over. See it as an opportunity to manage your career. Good people are always in demand and if you are one you are not limited to any one sector.

The HR guy was really up his ass, condascending, smug ****

I think it's a job requirement. 😀

It's good that you're being positive about it. I think (from the sounds of it), that it's pretty much inevitable now, but that's no reason to give up. Fight for as much as you can get, and as mentioned above, don't get suckered into accepting any sort of "voluntary" terms. Make sure you keep a record of everything that is said in the meetings etc, and even any personal conversations with your colleagues/management. Keep a diary of what happens when. It may also be worth taking a voice recorder into the meetings so you can take accurate notes later, although you ought to inform them that you are recording it. I can't see any reason for them to object, if everything they are doing is above board 😉

Finally, if you have any personal data on things like laptops/phones etc. copy it out now, as you may suddenly find yourself having to hand back stuff like that, and being put on gardening leave at your next meeting.

I would seriously think about getting a solicitor to come along to the meeting with you.

The company I'm contracting for recruit for O2 and they have a few roles that might suit, I don't know for sure but feel free to drop me a mail.

Jings, reading this makes me glad I'm my own boss, ok it's got it's short comings/own stresses but I am only
answerable to me and my clients not some bunch of "managers" - " " ankers .:cough:.

Sorry to readabout this, hope it works it good in the long run. My GF was made redundant from a big blue chip, retrained as a physio, loves it, is good at it, and is way happier than she would have been had she stayed. She was 'advised' that she should consider a voluntary package. She thought I could fight, but they don't want me so what's the point.

It seems like you're resigned to going. Best approach IMO, do you really want to fight to stay where, for whatever reason they've decided they don't want you?

Like TJ said, if you're resigned to going, get advice, let them make mistakes in the process, then hammer them at the end.

And maybe you should be careful what you say on here, if it does get legal and this is found, may it could affect things.

bushwacked, was cool to ride yesterday even though i ruined my back.
if i can help you in any way please just ask. you helped me through the dark times last year and i owe my new business venture to your nudging me!

All this stuff about tribunals is negative energy wasted mate, unless you really need the money. Stuff your company, take your money, find a new job, move on to a happier place hopefully!

All this stuff about tribunals is negative energy wasted mate, unless you really need the money. Stuff your company, take your money, find a new job, move on to a happier place hopefully!

I'd agree it was 'wasted negative energgy' if it was all about getting one back on the ex-employer. Instead it should be about getting what you deserve, getting out with dignity and setting up the best possible future.

I've only been made redundant once and I got it all wrong. Basically (being young and naive) I took the company's advice on how things should go. I wouldn't make that mistake again.

Bushwacked - you [b][i]are[/i][/b] documenting everything aren't you?

Bushwacked, sorry to hear this but am heartened to see you in positive mood. Seems to be lots of good advice and I've not been in this space so can't offer any, only to say good luck and look forward. If there's one thing I've learned, being open to change usually means there's something better out there for you. 🙂

Cheers for the comments - firing up the old PC and getting me CV up to date. Getting some advice from solicitors etc today and may go in to the office tomorrow for round 2 (may not if the weather is nice 😉 )

Joolsburger - YGM

Jedi - Will have a think and anyway you can help I'll let you know. You got any vacancies for puncture gimps or tea bitches??

i will have a think too. atkins needs a crank fitter 🙂 🙂

When i was made redundant earlier this yr, there was 6 or 7 process engineers who were considered. The manager's devised a 'fair' matrix system to grade everyone on and apparently I came out with the lowest score.
It was a joke, as some of the things they had scored me low on, they had previously mentioned to me that I was very good at. When I went through the individual score for each criteria with them, they had no explanation of how they had scored it they way they did.
I think they decided they wanted me and another bloke out and took the 'credit crunch' as a good way to do it.

You and your colleagues must have been scored on a similar matrix. You are entitled to see your scoring and you should also be able to get hold of either the other scores (with names removed) or the 'average' scores so you can see how you sit within that.
You should then be able to get justification for their scoring.

Good Luck with it all!

All this stuff about tribunals is negative energy wasted mate, unless you really need the money. Stuff your company, take your money, find a new job, move on to a happier place hopefully!

Very nicely put,it took me multiple paragraphs to try to say that.

The point about tribunals is that it allows people to take more money

The threat of a tribunal may make that happen, if you actually get to tribunal you're likely to be worse off (unless all they're offering is statutory redundancy) than taking the bung.

The only time I'd consider going to tribunal is if I thought someone I'd left behind was in physical or mental danger (i.e. bullying or harrasment).

I'm not sure they've even been through a scoring process yet!!

I'm sure it's all been covered above but to summarise the key point.

- If your role is one which several people do then irrespective of the specifics (eg customers since you could take them on if their current rep left) they should all be scored on a fair system and the lowest x people are then put at risk of redundancy.

- You are entitled to see your scores and have them explained to show that they are reasonable. I you are not entitled to see other people's score (or the averages, I think)

- On the face of what you've said, it does sound like they're not playing by the book. Record all correspondence including requests for information, summarise meetings afterwards in an email and send it to those involved. Keep a copy. Email them questions about anything you think that they haven't done right and state that you don't accept the decision. Ask lots of questions and make it awkward for them if they're not playing by the rules.

- Get in touch with a solicitor NOW! - several do no-win-no-fee if they feel that you have a good case and this itself is a good measure of whether you have any chance of success. Also, mentioning that you've got a solicitor on board often makes people take your issues seriously and may make all the difference.

- Make sure you appeal the decision if it's made (courts apparently tend to take this into account if you don't).

Or if you're not that fussed about the job and want a quiet life, do as suggested above - take the money and don't worry.

Bushwacked - Member
I'm not sure they've even been through a scoring process yet!!

It seems like they're suggesting that your role is not a common one and therefore they don't have to score you because there's no one to score you against.

On the phone to the solictor now!

Mighty Higs - a tribunal may achieve this result, depending upon the offer on the table. The downside is your employment record will show you were in dispute with this employer, and no matter the circumstances, that's something that will attract special interest when you next go for a job. To make this worth your while I'd think you'd need to be talking about a significant difference. If it's only buttons, I'd be more focused on getting another job.

My brother's an employment lawyer - he warns people about this before taking on their business.

You don't have to actually go to a tribunal, that would be really expensive and stressful (for you and for them).

You just have to act like you're prepared to and let them know you have a strong case. If they have cocked-up then they might pay you handsomely to go away.

Don't know if you said how long you've been there, or if they've put a package on the table yet? We got four weeks pay per year of service (or five for over 40s) when I was last made redundant, which we were very happy with.

Good luck!

Bushwacked you are stillemployed and paid for by the company,so its pointless not going to meetings etc,if you do go to a tribunal,youll just be classed as a trouble maker for future employment,just leave with the experience and training you got,and look for another job.

Sadly a lot of people got made redundant with very litle notice, Woolworths, Threshers etc, and they only got the minimum amount of redundancy paid for by the tax payer.

As for slagging off your workmates,theyre just happy youve gone as opposed to themselves,and dont want to say anything just incase their name goes to the top of the list next time.

When i got made redundant,all my so called workmates of 6 years said they would refuse to carry on my work,within days they had forgotton me,just glad they had not got the push.

Mighty Higs - a tribunal may achieve this result, depending upon the offer on the table. The downside is...

Sorry to hear this news, it's a horrible thing to go through.

This is where you find out that the people who you thought were 'friends' are total up their own _________ and not worth the time of day. One in particular who I had known for years turned out to be a total bas. I felt sure I could rely on him as I knew him as (what I thought) was a personal friend. He simply buried his head in the sand and went with what the completely useless (and also completely wrong!) hr fool said.

It was hard finding out that the people who you thought you were close too were in actual fact spineless, two faced and I was pretty disgusted with them. I wouldn't waste my urine if they were on fire now.

Anyhow, do as already has been said and use your solicitor - mine were brilliant! They gave me a huge amount of confidence.

Mine was a horrible and rediculous situation. Unfortunately I am still there (I was re-instated - they had no choice when faced with the actual facts). However, there isn't much work around at the moment and I'm halfway through my degree now. I'm happy in the respect that they are paying for my degree, my bills are paid and I have a job. funnily enough most of the poeple who turned on me are now redundant! I was one of the first they tried to get rid of - turned out they (along with many companies) were basically looking to get rid of staff by any means which would result in them not having to pay them off. Shocking! But common place.
I infomred them that I have a copy of the 12 page, extremely comprehensive and accurate report, as do they, as does my solicitor. And we have no problem in showing how incompetant, useless, underhand, gutless, etc etc etc they are if we need to.
The look on there faces was priceless when they read through the report. They took me as being a fool expecting no resistance. I took it upon myself to find out why the hell this situation was happening - it was an education to me and well worth it in the end. It's all in this [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/serious-it-help-needed ]thread here[/url] if you want a read.

Funny thing is - they've never come near me since then?.... A shame as I found a new source of employment and I'd now happily be made legally redundant, get a small pay-off, not have to pay uni fees back and go onto better things....

Anyhow, I know it can be difficult but stay positive, get looking for a new job and GET IT RIGHT UP THEM!

And I have to say that without this forum I would have been well and truly strung up! The knowledge, help, advice, good human nature was amazing! It truly restored my faith in people. When I was down in the crap this place really did pull me right out and stick me well up on top. I can't thank any of those who helped enough.
Without it I'd have lost my house and my family and I would be on the streets with nothing. It really was that serious.

Thanks everyone.

To those of you that say " you don't need a union"

If bushwhacked was a member he would have access to a union employed solicitor specialising in employment cases without paying out for it.

And some of the anti union folk claimed that unions were no longer needed as there were laws in place to protect workers rights and employers didn't break them. Yeah right!

I hope bushwacked gets a positive result and if I can help bushwacked please ask - I have some experience of this sort of thing - but not much recent.

If you are a union member when things go pearshaped and your employer acts unfairly then it is a lot easier to go to the union for expert advice rather than having to find a lawyer and so on - and if you are unionised your employer is less likely to try to shaft you anyway.

Glad things worked out OK for you in the end Zedsdead - or sort of OK and hope it does for you as well bushwacked

After my experiences, I gotta agree with TJ. A little help would've been nice, it's quite an isolating experience.

To be honest I think Unions are a good thing
Links to info and professional advice Dont
be fooled that they are not needed.

Bushwacked, I am very sorry you are being put through this but if your post is surplus to requirements thenas employers they surely have the right to terminate your contract of employment. TJ you and your union BS is 1970's discredited practice that brought the country to its knees (not far from where Labour is leaving us again, no surprise there).

Faux by faux - you have rights as a worker and a union helps you exercise them.

If bushwacked was in a union he could get asadvice and support withut hassle.

TJ

I think you are somewhat missing the point some us are trying to make. Sometimes it isn't worth putting up a hige struggle even if you are right. Yes a union may well provide good support but maybe just maybe even if Bushwacked 'wins' he could find himself in a worse position. I know a number of people who have actually been happier when they've been finally told they are redundant after being totally freaked out by not knowing. It affects people in different ways, sometimes moving on quickly and quietly is the healthiest option and gives the individual the best outcome.

I'll admit I'm not very pro-union, too many little politicians with their noses in the trough without actually considering the impact of their actions. However in these sort of situations I do believe unions have a useful role to play, may just not be the best answer, only Bushwacked can decide that.

Stumpy - no I accept that point - infact I suggested that the best outcome now would be to negotiate the best deal - possibly using th threat of a tribunal to get one. Thats what I did when I was being treated in a similar unfair manner

Kind of agree with TJ, flex your muscles and show you will not be a pushover but don't get bent out of shape over it. A mate of mine did this and went the full course which took nearly a year, he ended up with a 6 figure payoff but was on 'happy tablets' towards the end.

Bushwhacked,

Really sorry to read of your situation. I know others including myself who've been in a similar situation and it's very hard. Human Remains (not resources) are there to support policy, not people. Suggest that constructive dismissal could be hard to prove without a clear portfolio of evidence - the burden of proof is on you to prove it, not them to disprove. If you are the only person in the process then unfair selection criteria is much more likely for you - and a robust legal response often drives towards a compromise agreement in order to reduce costs. They need to provide a fair an open process, which they haven't - they also expect you to roll over and die quietly. Do not. Dig in and keep at them - good luck and remember that it's only business for them. Hope your lawyer is a help to you - and it's good to see the STW forum supporting you.

Chin up mate.

Glencampbell it's unfair dismissal not constructive dismissal that Bushwacked is being threatened with. Strangely in 20 odd years in a union (TGWU) I never met one of these political leaders at a local level.

Cheers for the comments.

Situation is I've pushed back the next meeting to next Wednesday as I still have a lot of investigation to do especially talking to solicitors.

Bascially I'm going down the route that the selection pool is unfair as my team of 5 are all contracted doing the same role.

Also my role is not disappearing, one of my colleagues is going to be taking it on - meaning its not being made redundant which in my eyes means they should be in the pool also as I am more than competent than most of them.

I've accepted that my days at my company are numbered so I've accepted that and have started a big push to source alternative employment as soon as possible.

I'm keeping my spirits high but my wife is taking it really badly and she has been in tears saying its ruining our Xmas and pointing out after 5 years we were just starting back on the road of financial stability. BIG fight last night over nothing ended in her breaking down in front of me. Horrible to watch!!! She's taken the day off today as she is just too stressed out and hasn't slept all night.

SO bascially lots of positive action and attitude from me. I'm going so why fight it (other than to get more money from them for their incompetance and lack of respect for their employees)

On the subject of tribunals and unions, I've never been a great one for Unions (used to work for Unipart and heard many a story of how the unions ruined British Leyland back in the day). But I can see why they have their place. I may go down the tribunal route but only if things get really bad and any appeal doesn't work out.

They're bastards but that's their problem not mine 🙂

you are strong dude. be strong for your wife and it will all work out.
if i can help as i said ,just holla! and i'm there

Might need to ride sometime and enjoy a bit of distraction 😀

Hi Barney,

Not read the whole post but sounds as though you are having a bit of grief at work (or soon to be not work).

It may seem like the end of the world at the moment, but keep a cool head, think positive and you’ll be fine. – I thought I was going to lose everything last year when my company went into liquidation, but looking back now it was the best thing ever.

If you need a trip up north for a bit of riding to clear your head, just let me know. My door is always open

Cheers

marcus