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Nickc
14 years of a tory government as or more extreme than those mentioned elected on a minority of the vote. Impossible under PR. Under PR we wouls have had social democratic governments not extreme right wing ones
Dazh. Please learn a bit about Scottish democracy .
Under PR we wouls have had social democratic governments not extreme right wing ones
Extreme right wing governments? Which ones?
David Cameron 1 - Solidly centre-right trendy liberal with a solid dose of lib-dem bedwetting. Austerity opportunist.
David Cameron 2 - Same as previous but without the lib-dem ball and chain. Even then he still campaigned to stay in the EU!
Theresa May - Centrist anti-austerity matriarch who liked to sound hard about immigration while doing bugger all about it.
Boris Johnson - Circus act crowd pleaser and secret MMTer. More of a gameshow host than a politician (there's a reason he likes Zelensky so much!)
Liz Truss - Ok you've got me here, but she wasn't exactly successful was she?!
Rishi Sunak - Liberal tech-bro billionaire. Architect of the single largest socialist experiment ever seen in modern UK history (which turned out to be very effective!).
So again, which one of these (barring the obvious failure) were 'extreme right wing'?
14 years of a tory government as or more extreme than those mentioned
You seriously think that Johnson's or May's or Sunak's administration are worse than Erdogan? Orban? Or the Law and Justice party? You need to give your head a wobble.
All of them. Every one was racist anti eu hard right. You have been boiled like a frog ie the gradual creep to the right has not been seen. Cameron took the tories out of the centre right grouping in the EU and put it in the far right grouping.
All of those governments sit along side the hard right of hungary and poland etc or to the right of them.
All of those governments sit along side the hard right of hungary and poland etc or to the right of them.
Don't be daft. They're all pinko pacifist hippies compared to Orban et al. David Cameron brought in gay marraige! Something Tony Blair never saw fit to do (probably on account of his catholic leanings). 🤷♂️
It shows how successful the tory capture of media is that you believe this
Very similar Nickc. Hard right racist anti democratic anti eu with very simikar policies .
But even if that's true (which I think is wildly off the mark) FPTP is still going to rid us of our "extreme" govt whilst in the meantime, Erdogan isn't going anywhere and neither is Orban, and both have now captured the telly, and other broadcast media and are busy locking up opposition candidates or banning thier parties. The PiS Party (I'm not making that up) were forced out only by the slimmest of margins. So if PR is supposed to avoid extreme govts, they're not doing any better than FPTP.
But none of that addresses the wealth imbalance we've created.
TJ I don't need any encouragement to hate the tories, but I'm not going to pretend they're worse than they actually are just to fit a charicature. I know what you're bothered about, you still haven't gotten over brexit and hold a grudge. That's fine, but please don't let it cloud your judgement, it's neither useful or healthy. No UK prime minister has come anywhere close to being as bad as some others who have risen to power in supposedly enlightened western democracies. Truss had potential but even the supposedly cut-throat and self-interested establishment couldn't stomach her radicalism. We've actually been prett lucky in this country on the avoiding extremists front. Less lucky on the competence front I agree, but better to have incompetent liberals than competent authoritarians.
@dazh I agree. I am no fan of the Tory psrty but they are along way from being extreme right wing. Right wind yes, bit hardly extreme. Sure there are some would like the party to be more right wing, Moggy please step forward, or the nutter who has just decided to join reform so he can loose the general election
As others say, if you think the tories of the last 14 years are hard right wingers, then you're political compass needs a check 🤣
As DazH stated, most of it's been covered by a soft right leader in Cameron, Theresa May was so against Brexit it cost her the job, same with Cameron, Johnson just wanted to be PM, he'd be left of Corbyn if he thought it would get him what he wanted.
As for Scotland being tory or UKIP free, yesterday i watched a football match where i saw more union jacks and rule britannia style singing than the last night of the proms!
It shows how successful the tory capture of media is that you believe this
Always interesting talking to friends who have moved out of Britain and still follow what’s happening here via media in their own country. It doesn’t look good to them, at all.
Rangers support does not equal Scotland
Try selling the SFA and the SPFL that!
"Try selling the SFA and the SPFL that!" I have in a way.
I havent attended a game for about 12yrs, and havent been a regular attendee for 30+ years. I can out myself as a Jungle Jim
Please Note Celtic support also does not equal Scotland
like it or not, the UK has a large right wing population, the tories are their party of choice, so you need a strong opposition, no matter who the sitting government is.
Either reduce voting age to 16 or change the law so that you’re not classed as an adult until you’re 18.
Cap the voting for those that are retired /not economically active..... i.e. Old gits.
Always interesting talking to friends who have moved out of Britain and still follow what’s happening here via media in their own country. It doesn’t look good to them, at all
A good proportion of those when given a vote from overseas vote Tory to stick the boot in even further. At least those I have spoken to, they thrive on it (puts a great big smile on their faces) and can't wait.
I've often wondered what would be the straw that snaps the camels back. It's the only thing UK politicians have proven to be any good at, being unpopular enough without inciting mass civil disobedience.
I reckon it would be ill-advised to go after the working class foreign holiday. The only respite from this grey miserable shithole full of small-minded interfering ****s! Make flights too expensive (it's bad for the environment after all) and gentrify the British holiday with the help of the toady small to medium sized businessmen. No more Benidorm or Bodrum, say hello to a luxury caravan priced for middleclass families in Ingoldmels 😀
Don't worry about housing when your kids can live in a converted shipping container, it's the fewture, they've shown us it's going to be great.
David Cameron brought in gay marraige! Something Tony Blair never saw fit to do (probably on account of his catholic leanings). 🤷♂️
Listened to a podcast the other day about this topic.... It wasn't that Cameron was massively pro gay and Blair wasn't, but that the public was ready.... Blair had laid the foundations that meant Cameron could introduce it.
And a majority of the Conservatives voted against it… the other parties made it happen.
I’ve lived in three constituencies as an adult. I’ve voted in every general election.
I’ve voted for every major English political party at least once.
I have never voted for the MP who won.
I don’t think this means my vote was irrelevant, or that the process is undemocratic.
if you voted for someone who won in a landslide, would you feel more involved?
Been voting since since 1983, mostly for losing SNP candidates never really felt much different when I voted for winning candidates. Except in 2015 when I felt some relief as my area voted SNP for the first time, and in 1997 when I voted for Dennis Canavan the Labour candidate where I then lived as I admired him and shared many of his opinions
I have always lived in safe constituencies. My vote has been irrelevant. Under fptp elections are decided by a couple of hundred thousand voters in around 50 constituencies.
Those of you who do not understand how dar right the uk tiries are remember that cameron took them out of the European centre right grouping into the far right grouping and could you please tell me one policy from the hungsrian or polish far right governments that are not tory policiy
Scaoegoating minorities tick. Impovrishing the poor tick. Anti unions tick. Stuffing the media with tbeir supporters tick
Its not me who has lost my pitical compass. Its those who do not understand how far right the tories are. I know if nothing that the hard right polish or Hungarian governments have done that the tories have not
There's no way the Tories are hard right. Being anti Europe (which is different from being anti immigration) isn't even a particularly left- or right-wing policy.
If a far right party was in power for 20 years we would look a lot more like america than we currently do, much lower taxes, far more privatized industries, much smaller spend. As it is, we don't look particularly different from when the mid-left labour left (taxes and spending are higher as a proportion of GDP for one thing), and I don't think we'll look much different in 5 years when labour have had a stab at things.
It isn’t FPTP that is going to get rid of the tories (on current forecasts). It’s the collapse in their vote share. They’d never have had such a landslide victory in the first place were it not for FPTP. We’d have been largely governed by a series of centre-left coalitions, in line with the wishes of the major of the electorate, if the system was reasonably representative. It doesn’t even need to be perfect, just not completely horrible.
So one policy the Hungarian or polish governments you agree are hard right that is not a tory policy?
Tories are xenophobic at best and outright racist generally and scapegoat immigrants. Thats hard right.
They create " the enemy within" straight out of tbe hard right playbook
They deliberatly impoverish the poor, the sick and the disabled. Guess what?
For 32 years of my voting life i have lived in Sunaks constituency, my vote for Labour has been meaningless. I would have to move to make a difference. In practical terms democracy is a myth for many people.
Same for many people, even those tories in Labour strongholds I imagine. Any vote I make that is not Tory is meaningless and has been since I moved here in 2001.
Brexit was caused due to a fair and open vote, it was democratic and if i remember, both the hard left and hard right wanted it, with the unions in favour of exiting the EU as well.
I've said it before, but in reality we see very little change between parties taking over government, folk live off paper headlines, when the reality is just completely different, the likes of immigration is up, even after Brexit, most of what the tories have done this term is just waste money to try and look like they're doing stuff, our political system has protected us against some of the daftest stuff that could have damaged us more, it's not perfect, but it does a job until there is a better system in place.
"I’ve said it before, but in reality we see very little change between parties taking over government"
That's actually not true for anyone with a brain and some memory. Which may exclude many voters, of course.
That’s actually not true for anyone with a brain and some memory. Which may exclude many voters, of course.
The 14 years of the tories have been dominated by Brexit and Covid, and then of course international matters, when they've tried to get controversial votes through, the Lords, or courts have managed to stop them most of the time, the country is pretty much the same as it was in 2010 to most people, with the same issues affecting them.
I think a lot of people forget that behind 300-350 MPs for a party, there are hundreds of permanents secretaries, thousands of civil servant staffers, and tens of thousands of departmental civil servants all working away at managing the government, add in the two houses, the courts, etc and it's not an easy thing to get wide changing policy through all the hoops, if it was i dare say the NHS would have PLC at the end of it now!
I have always lived in safe constituencies. My vote has been irrelevant.
Hate to break this to you, but even under PR your vote is one in tens of millions. Your voice is largely irrelevant in any voting system for a country of this scale. If relevance is what you and others crave, then get involved in politics at the lowest level and make a difference to your local community. I live in an ultra marginal and I can assure you it brings little comfort. I still feel complete isolation and separation from govt and the decisions that are made on my* behalf even though my vote is much more influential than yours.
*as if!. Hardly anything govts of any colour do is in the interests of working people like myself.
Thats hard right.
The current Tories may be 'hard' right by comparison to the norm in the UK (although I'd say that's debateable). But you can compare and contrast the regimes by using Freedom House which gives everyone a score based on how free the country is.
United Kingdom score is 91/100
So you can keep on insisting that the Tories are more or less the same thing as these semi-autocratic regimes, but the folks who's job it is to literally judge these things, disagrees with you.
Your voice is largely irrelevant in any voting system for a country of this scale.
Of course voting is a collective thing. The point is for everyone’s vote to be worth the same, and for representation to match votes cast. We are so far from that in UK wide elections.
The point is for everyone’s vote to be worth the same, and for representation to match votes cast.
Why are we obsessing about the relative influence of individual votes when what we should be worrying about is the influence and power of the wealthy which is exercised outside the voting system? Compared to the influence a corporate lobbyist or billionaire exercises over ministers, MPs and senior civil servants, your vote is completely irrelevant. You think billionaires worry about whether their vote is useful?
Im not sure it can ever be fixed. It's all based on corruption.
I long predicted that our system of government would be eventually be run by millionaires and billionaires for their own benefit and those who support them. It's probably over 20 years since i first came to this conclusion.
And thats where we are now.
"the country is pretty much the same as it was in 2010 to most people, with the same issues affecting them."
Nonsense. Last I looked about 20% of the population is on an NHS waiting list. Housing has been problematic for a long time of course, but if you don't think it's markedly worse for many more people than it was back then, you have a short memory indeed. I could go on. This is pretty much the first time in history that children are going to be worse off than their parents, and it's not due to external events, it's deliberate policy choices to impoverish the future.
Brexit was caused due to a fair and open vote, it was democratic
Well aside from the fact that as a non binding referendum it was run under different rules from what it magically morphed into. As such spending restrictions were limited and also the ability to promise all things to all people was available to the brexiteers. Something which wouldnt have been available under a binding referendum where we would have known what we are getting.
with the unions in favour of exiting the EU as well.
Some unions were but a minority.
the likes of immigration is up, even after Brexit,
Not "even" after brexit but at least for illegal migration due to it since previous agreements vanished.
For legal migration we get into the different promises to different people. The "save our curry houses" and similar campaigns from the brexiteers did claim by reducing EU migration it would enable more migration from India/****stan etc. Unusually for the brexiteers its sort of been kept to but is of course something very different from what was being promised to other groups.
So you can keep on insisting that the Tories are more or less the same thing as these semi-autocratic regimes, but the folks who’s job it is to literally judge these things, disagrees with you.
They arent.
You are confusing a party being "hard right" with a country being "free".
A ruling party can be hard right but not succeed in undermining democracy sufficiently to damage the latter. For example in the UK several attempts to damage our levels of freedom have been defeated in court.
Hard to figure out what the question really is- the OP asks the question of how to bring the policies of the two main parties closer together, the second post says if we rid ourselves of the Cons then things will be right, the third advocates a flavour of MMP as the solution...
NZ has had MMP since 1996 to force better representation of voting percentages in Parliament. In that time there has only been one single party majority- Ardern's 2020 government, which was pretty unsuccessful, and resulted in a record swing to the right in last years elections. There's now a centre right (Tory) majority part with two right wing (economically libertarian, socially conservative, populist) 'kingmaker ' parties. This coalition (which took 90 odd days to form a government) spent its first 100 days dismantling many of the flagship policies of the previous government.
So, yeah, representation matches votes cast, but it's still the same old shit show. Proportional representation is not necessarily better than FPTP, and may even exaggerate the influence of extremist parties.
"For example in the UK several attempts to damage our levels of freedom have been defeated in court."
And yet our freedom to protest and strike have been substantially curtailed. Our freedom to go and make a better life for ourselves outside the country has been taken away. It hasn't happened yet but there's a large faction within the tories who wish to take away our human rights.
Why are we obsessing about the relative influence of individual votes when what we should be worrying about is the influence and power of the wealthy which is exercised outside the voting system?
If you don't see how a two party swinging system helps the wealthy to maintain a hold on parliament, and government, then I can't help you there.
As it happens though, I was talking about how our voting system and our demographics means that older people have such a strong grip on our democracy. Your answer was to deny people the vote. My suggestions were to widen the pool of voters and, more importantly, to make the votes of younger voters genuinely count, rather than so many being worthless because of where they happen to choose (or have no choice) to live. My suggestion is to strengthen democracy, yours is to further degrade it. A watered down example of the democracy versus authoritarian argument I suppose.
This is pretty much the first time in history that children are going to be worse off than their parents.
That's an interesting claim. I wonder if its *really* true. Worse off is a very broad term. Certainly my son is the age I was when I left uni, and he will be better off than I was. I have wealthier friends who's children will be even better off as Mummy and Daddy funded university for them and the flat they bought will be sold to create a deposit (the same was true of wealthier friends when I went to uni in the 90s). Undoubtedly there are poorer people who are served less well, but it was the same in the 90s too. And that is measuring wealth on a purely financial scale. Our children today have better bikes, computers, phones, etc which mean that even if they believe they have less cash, their quality of life *may* not be worse. Now, don't get me wrong, I am pretty sure social mobility is no better and possibly worse than it was - which for politicians claiming to be the party of aspiration is a catastrophic failure... ...unless of course social mobility amongst your own voters has improved!
I wonder if its *really* true.
Housing, that's all one needs to consider for a positive answer. The size of income for affordability is beyond most minimum wage earners.
Final salary pensions.
Both you and I appear to be at the upper end of the income scale, my children are towards the other end. Without my/our help my two will not be able to afford a house close to their workplace and their pensions are going to be rubbish compared to mine.
Scrap postal voting, it's wide open to abuse.