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Spokes - I'm 12yrs into being a teacher. Not a great paying job but I'm not exactly brasic either. On the proposed system I'd have to pay back £1200 pa on my current salary - or 3.4% of gross. In your first year as a teacher you would be paying back something daft like £35 - a year! No idea what a geologist earns but if modest like you say - you sure you could not afford those figures? It would be a pita, but doable and not enough to put me off. I suspect jobs that require graduate education will see a gradual pay rise to compensate too so the cost will be offset to employers in the long run.
but there is no money
Where do people get this stuff from ? The UK has the sixth largest economy in the world......with a population of only 60 million. It has a GDP/per capita [i]higher[/i] than the EU average. It is a member of the G7 group of wealthy nations - do you think we are about to get slung out because we are "skint" ?
I'm looking into teaching now simply because it pays more up front. Geological jobs do not pay well at first- most of the starter jobs (outside oil) are low paid (many now are simply volunteering so obviously you'd not pay anything back), and it takes a long time to get there in terms of a reasonable pay that wouldn't be impacted as much by losing more money.
Regardless of what happens, it's still double the amount of money to pay back and that's just too much even if it is spread out.
I think however the main issue is not the total amount but the way better universities will charge more. Regardless of what the actual situation is in terms of paying it back poorer, brighter kids will not go to more expensive universities. This stops them climbing the social ladder and bettering themselves, and in turn helping the economy. It's elitist. Why shouldn't those who work hardest be given the best opportunity?
Well back to the helicopters thing, if the police hadn't been ready to (illegally) kettle from the beginning then the protestors wouldn't have bolted and led them on a merry dance around central London.
11.30
In Trafalgar Square there is a handful of soggy protesters and a few journalists. The plan today is that students will arrive here from 11am and then at about 12noon march down to Parliament Square – where there will be speeches and an "open mike".They had agreed with police that the demonstration would finish at 3pm but interestingly some of the shopkeepers around Parliament Square say they have been told by the police that the students will be "held" there until 6pm.
Students who are setting up in Parliament Square are furious: "The police already seem to have decided to kettle the protest despite what happened last time and despite agreeing with us this week that the demo should finish at 3pm," said Maham Hashmi, from Soas (School of Oriental and African Studies).
12.15
There is a big police presence around Westminster, scores of vans parked up the side streets on Whitehall including at least one carrying police horses.A couple of hundred people gathered in Trafalgar Square, with a very vocal group gathered underneath Nelson's Column chanting "give us back our EMA" as well as some rather rude things about Nick Clegg.
The march set off down Whitehall as agreed, but half way down was a line of few hundred police. Demonstrators turned and ran back up towards Trafalgar Square, sprinting across Horse Guards Parade and generally scattering everywhere.
Police are now giving chase across Horse Guards Parade. The demonstration is much smaller than last time, but there's definitely two or three thousand here.
[url] http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/blog/2010/nov/30/student-protests-live-coverage [/url]
The Met say that the lines of police in Whitehall were because the march started earlier than agreed, which the timings of the Guardian updates dispute.
you don't necessarily realise how different this "debt" is to other debt we pick up (car loans, mortgage etc) where you are expected to pay it all back irrespective of income.
Well that's the whole point.........starting off in life is hard enough as it is what with car loans, mortgages, getting married, having kids, etc. The last thing they need is another debt slapped on them......something has to give. And for some it will be higher education. Anyone who thinks higher prices won't reduce demand, doesn't understand how market forces work. A point which Ted Heath eloquently made when he criticised Margaret Thatcher for introducing NHS eye test charges.
And anyway, I thought this government was supposed to be completely against the "pay later" attitude ? ........debt is evil, we can't be in any debt, we must clear the deficit immediately, [i]blah, blah, blah[/i]
Regardless of what the actual situation is in terms of paying it back poorer, brighter kids will not go to more expensive universities. This stops them climbing the social ladder and bettering themselves, and in turn helping the economy. It's elitist. Why shouldn't those who work hardest be given the best opportunity?
Sorry, I really don't get this bit. No one but the very very richest parents will be paying off their child's debt at the end of the course - I'd wager much less than 1% of all students. The vast majority of student's will be paying this back as effectively a graduate tax (as if you are in a modestly paid job you will never pay it all back and continue repaying for your entire career) out of [b]their[/b] wages. The wealth or otherwise of their parent's does not enter into the equation.
I'm still with you on the different institutions, different costs point though; although if the institution goes through the glass ceiling they will need to offer more grants and opportunities to the poorer applicants. What does worry me is that eventually the most expensive courses to run will cost more to go on. Anything that might put even more students off genuinely useful science based courses and towards history of art et al needs discouraging!
Flashy's just jealous, 'cos they've got the balls to actually publicly stand up for what they believe in, rather than cower behind a stupid persona behind a keyboard. He can only dream of having such stones...
What are you some kind of sad east end snatch extra wannabe? Having the stones...sheeeshh.
As for being brave? Hardly! Its real easy to be brave when your part of a mob..
Apart from that - peaceful protest yes, violent disorder no. Taking to the streets & smashing the place up isnt going to gain any sympathy.
Ernie - don't get me wrong, my inner socialist would love to see all education free at the point of delivery. But it's not free is it. The government pays = we pay. If the government pays that means the tax of the 50% of the populous that didn't get to go is also contributing to the experience of the "lucky" half. Is it more moral for a true red to advocate "free" education to encourage the son of today's binman to "better himself" through education or to protect the binmen of tomorrow from paying for the leg-up given to the newly elevated higher earners that they did not profit from personally?
Everyone profits from a university educated person. Everyone is taught by a school teacher, products people used that are even as simple as a radio need a degree behind them at some point.
Convert- while I accept the point that in some situations it may be better in terms of repayment, it's still a massive mental barrier for people from poor backgrounds to over come building up that kind of debt. Even if they would be perfectly able to pay it back they won't go.
What are you some kind of sad east end snatch extra wannabe?
Why, you some sorta sad Haight-Ashbury hippy 'dude' who wears flowers in your hair and is like, far out, maaan...? Trippin...
Oh look, you've worked out I'm from the East End, and then wondered what sort of stereotype you can use to try to describe me. I say, how terribly clever of you, old chap.
Actually, FYI; proper East End Geezers are more likely to use the word that begins with 'b' and ends in 'ollocks'. Watch films like 'The Krays' and 'The Long Good Friday', and you might understand.... 😉
Apart from that - peaceful protest yes, violent disorder no. Taking to the streets & smashing the place up isnt going to gain any sympathy.
Erm, according to most news sources, the demonstrations were largely quite peaceful actually. Little bit of argy-bargy, but yer gonna get that when folk are a bit worked up.
I don't think London (and many other towns) have been smashed up, so you can relax...
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no.
but there is no money.
Why is this?
Ah, could it be because those who are already lucky enough to have obtained a degree and a high paying job have lost it all? Just wondering...
Add to this the obvious fact that if the student doesn't pay now, then presumably the government does, and gets paid back very slowly (or most probably never in most cases), isn't this just a ticking time bomb of a massive amount of debt to the government that will just have to be written off?
I really cannot see one credible economic argument for the proposed fee increases.
The political argument is a bit more obvious though: Be seen to do something, whilst appeasing the uneducated masses that 'them crounging students' have to pay for their education. In reality however, they may well end up paying a lot less, leaving the treasury somewhat worse off...
jeeeeeez, its a couple of grand, whats the problem?
Alot of people I went to uni with really didnt need or want to be there, we need to get rid of the'has to have a degree' mentality. I have used very little of my degree in my job and i get on just fine. Lets start educating people with what they need and some common sense and maybe we can start moving the country forwards again.
jeeeeeez, its a couple of grand, whats the problem?
It's not a couple of grand, it's paying a whole lot more for a whole lot less. It's introducing 'market forces' into education.
A lot of people I went to uni with really didnt need or want to be there
nothing like quantifiable evidence to really push your point home.
[i]Devon and Cornwall Police:
The all inclusive cost is £1675 per hour, this includes everything including fuel, staff and insurance. The unit has an annual budget of 1,000 hours per year, an average of 2.75 flying hours per day. [/i]
But you've to pay the staff for a full year, so all their costs (should be?) in their too.
[url= http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n21/stefan-collini/brownes-gamble ]Browne report gamble[/url]
It is difficult to estimate – though some reports suggest it may be difficult to exaggerate – the damage that may be done to British universities in the short term by the abolition of the block grant and the wild hope that its functions will be taken over by some kind of market mechanism run by university applicants. At present, the block grant is the tangible expression of the public interest in the provision of good quality education across the system, and the means for universities to make informed intellectual choices about the subjects they teach. But before Liberal Democrat MPs sell their souls in the division lobbies, they need to consider the longer-term consequences for British education and culture more generally of implementing the kind of reasoning on which this report is based. What is at stake here is not primarily the question of whether this or that group of graduates will pay a little more or a little less towards the costs of their education, even though that may seem (particularly to those in marginal seats) to be the most potent element electorally. What is at stake is whether universities in the future are to be thought of as having a public cultural role partly sustained by public support, or whether we move further towards redefining them in terms of a purely economistic calculation of value and a wholly individualist conception of ‘consumer satisfaction’.
the damage that may be done to [s]British[/s] English universities in the short term by the abolition of the block grant and the wild hope that its functions will be taken over by some kind of market mechanism run by university applicants.
Good input
I don't agree with the plans, I don't agree with the riots but I think the rioters are in a small minority but getting most attention.
I remember someone telling me that it costs as much to keep a helicopter on the ground as it does to fly. Think that was mountain rescue as they were explaining why they took the helicopter out so much to rescue people. They could have been lying and just pretenting they were in Airwolf flying aound though.
They could have been lying and just pretenting they were in Airwolf flying aound though
Well if you had the opportunity...
Oh look, you've worked out I'm from the East End, and then wondered what sort of stereotype you can use to try to describe me. I say, how terribly clever of you, old chap.
Why, you some sorta sad Haight-Ashbury hippy 'dude' who wears flowers in your hair and is like, far out, maaan...? Trippin...
Pot calling kettle.
Actually, FYI; proper East End Geezers are more likely to use the word that begins with 'b' and ends in 'ollocks'. Watch films like 'The Krays' and 'The Long Good Friday', and you might understand....
I dont think you have the faintest idea what a real "geezer" would say..
Oh & lastly you really do have a high opinion of yourself.... Compensating maybe?
I dont think you have the faintest idea what a real "geezer" would say..
I love those sort of comments.......completely meaningless, and utterly pointless. But yet hugely amusing and entertaining. It reminds of a time once, when this geezer was accused by a barmaid of making a racist comment, he retorted with, "she wouldn't know a black man if one fell out of the sky and landed on her" 😀
As it happens, in real life, Elfinman is right posh git......what with having gone to private school and university. He might well live in the East End for its trendy appeal, but then so do the nouveau riche.
Every hour the helicopter is in the air costs one of the protestors a subsidised education? that and every windows smashed at conservative HQ.
As it happens, in real life, Elfinman is right posh git......what with having gone to private school and university. He might well live in the East End for its trendy appeal, but then so do the nouveau riche.
Thats why I said it..
Ha ha! Nice one Ernie! 😆
Repack; come, and I'll buy you a pint sometime. 😀
I feel your pain CFH - as a long-time resident of the Pimlico/ Victoria triangle, it's ****in noisy when they're hovering around Westminster, too. And they don't seem to stop til the early hours of the morning. 🙁
oliverd1981 - MemberEvery hour the helicopter is in the air costs one of the protestors a subsidised education? that and every windows smashed at conservative HQ.
Which are both a lot less that what is lost through tax avoidance or our subsidies of BAE systems, for example.
lets just call it £100,000 up front for all these here University courses - that should sort it...then we can go back to having loads of apprentices like plumbers and plasterers and that sort of thing....mind you - have to think this policy through of course....
Repack; come, and I'll buy you a pint sometime
I know all about you & your offers of a pint.. Ill probably end up paying.. 😉
When I was at high school we had a visit from the Navy and one of their Seakings. At the time (a long time ago...) it was £1500 per hour IIRC so 2-3k would probably be about right now.