[Closed] How high do you think fuel prices will have to reach before...

o how far do you have to go before you are allowed to say you aren't happy with the fossil fuel dependance we have? Live in a cave, veg patch outside, own a cow a sheep and raise chickens?

So you say you aren't happy as you need to assuage your conscience whilst quaffing at the trough?

Abit like retiree's who buy a Toyota Prius as they suddenly care after years of waste?

No matter what you do or say now doesn't make a cat in hells chance of a difference. Indians and Chinese aint going to listen to you. We had our Industrial revolution and if we don't like they'll fight us on the battlefield for the worlds dwindling oil reserves.

They'll win.

aren't you assuming the only reason for reducing peoples car usage is to save the environment? Theres a lot of other good reasons congestion, accidents, local air pollution etc..

I've no doubt some people need cars more than others, but the vast majority of people use cars for completely unecessary journeys. Many people where i work drive < 2 miles to work. I questioned someone once and they said they can't walk because it'd talk nearly 30 minutes and they didn't know the way. WTF?

People justify lazyness will all sorts of nonsense

You also can't expect females to walk through certain areas or even early.

Central London- the car is an absolute pita to own/maintain compared to public transport.

Outside London- Public transport sucks.

As far as you can.

So you say you aren't happy as you need to assuage your conscience whilst quaffing at the trough?

So you say you aren't happy as you need to assuage your conscience whilst quaffing at the trough?

Abit like retiree's who buy a Toyota Prius as they suddenly care after years of waste?

No matter what you do or say now doesn't make a cat in hells chance of a difference.

If / When petrol hits £2 a litre do you not think that most of the working class families physically won't be able to afford to run a car?

And a lot of single earners around £20k will be able to afford it just but it will eat into their savings massively putting another nail in the coffin of the mortgage impossible dream.

Massively hump! I was born in the wrong generation, I want a twin v6's!

hora - Member
No matter what you do or say now doesn't make a cat in hells chance of a difference. Indians and Chinese aint going to listen to you. We had our Industrial revolution and if we don't like they'll fight us on the battlefield for the worlds dwindling oil reserves.

So remove yourself from that race freeing your ability to compete. The future will not be like the present but more so.

There is a pretty inevitable fight that we can not hope to win, so we need to remove ourself from it as much as possible.

HoratioHufnagel - Member
aren't you assuming the only reason for reducing peoples car usage is to save the environment? Theres a lot of other good reasons congestion, accidents, local air pollution etc..

+1 reducing car use make for more pleasurable environment to live in. Even if oil was not an issue reducing car use makes for a more pleasent environment.

I think the Chinese are actually trying to develop their country more sustainably than ours were.

After all, it would be massively stupid to base your whole economy on a dwindling resource, wouldn't it? They are smart, they won't make our mistake because they saw what happened to us.

Well they are certainly better at controlling the potential as well as the living population.

Thankfully we don't shoot our own citizens. We just kettle them.

Fuel still costs about double in the UK compared to the US, but we don't see very significant differences in attitude to car use. There are still so many don't-give-a-damn drivers in the UK. It's quite depressing.

I interpret that to mean fuel still needs get a lot more expensive before the majority make any changes to their habits. I see just as many cars lined up at my daughters primary school, bike sheds completely empty. Clearly it doesn't really matter yet.

So other than the sad fact that that cats in the oil industry are raking it in, I'm very happy that prices are rising. I do drive, and these days I take some pride in going very slowly. (Which wasn't always the case). - At least I still get to go as fast as I like on my bike.

It's got to be good for the UK in the long run because is the only way we will ever reduce our addiction to the stuff, and stop fighting criminal wars and pandering to despots.

I even wrote to George Osbourne and asked him NOT to drop the duty increase, but to spend the money raised on green energy investments instead. - He didn't listen, but every little helps.

Abit like retiree's who buy a Toyota Prius as they suddenly care after years of waste?

I suspect the current generations use far more energy than our fathers or grand fathers did
If I think back to the house I grew up in in the 60's - the only electricity that was used was for lighting, we had a gas cooker, one gas fire with a back boiler - and that's about it
we didn't have a car either dad went to work on a bike and holidays were by train, along with 10s of thousands of others

in contrast, everyone is using energy pretty much all the time now

The sanctimonious vegan shoe wearing crowd...

During the last oil price spike, ships carrying fruit to us went a bit slower. This reduced their wake, and used less fuel. It took them 3 weeks to get here instead of two, so the supermarket buyers had to be a bit cleverer, but it kept the fruit price down despite the rising fuel costs.

I'm happy for my vegan shoes to take a bit longer to get here.

I suspect the current generations use far more energy than our fathers or grand fathers did
If I think back to the house I grew up in in the 60's - the only electricity that was used was for lighting, we had a gas cooker, one gas fire with a back boiler - and that's about it
we didn't have a car either dad went to work on a bike and holidays were by train, along with 10s of thousands of others

No gas lights back in the day? 😉

No gas lights back in the day?

no, we were upper working class, we had a modern council house with new fangled electric lighting, 🙂

I remember my grand mother still had the gas lamps fitted even though they hadn't worked for years

im doing my own protest by selling car when my insurance runs out, ive already cut down my car usage by 50% ... im sick to death of all the costs of motoring now, its such a huge moneygrabbing con that im just not prepared to sponsor them with and more funds.
if a few million people refused to buy any fuel for a week or two then i recon the price will plummet! ... same with the ripoff insurances, but thats another rant innit, lol

We're only on one car anyway, and that only gets filled up once a month or so.

I'm happy for my vegan shoes to take a bit longer to get here.

Shoes made from vegans sound pretty cool. Got a link?

I think the Chinese are actually trying to develop their country more sustainably than ours were

I think the Chinese are actually [b]trying[/b] to develop their country more sustainably than ours were

Y'know, there are over a billion of them, so even if they still emit more than the US in total they could still be doing ok.

I think the thing that gets me is the 'I'm alright jack, **** the rest attitude' displayed by those lucky enough to live close to where they work and are not affected by fuel prices.

Fair point, but you can plan this outcome. I'm certainly no old hippy, but I strongly believe in 'keeping it in the community' as much as possible.
I do have a bit of a beef about people choosing to live miles from the place of work, that's not really good for anyone or the environment.

that's not really good for anyone

especially the locals

Those last circles are the key ones. And how many of those 4.7 tonnes per capita are from making crap for us and the Americans?

think the graph top right is hey one as they are now the top producers of C02 - which would happen ,all other thing sbeing equal, due to population size but the graph is upwards is the main concern.
Basing power on caol is nto sustainable nor good for us all. 20 % is hydro iirc so they do do some stuff better than us.

And how many of those 4.7 tonnes per capita are from making crap for us and the Americans?

Yes, and those kg of CO2 should go against our numbers not theirs.

it is about 33% iirc.

? Do people think billions of Chinese folk don't buy, consume, heat and eat anything?

'Making stuff' for 50million here is nothing compared.

Guess how many new cars were produced for the chinese home market?

In excess of a million NEW cars last year alone and growing.

if a few million people refused to buy any fuel for a week or two then i recon the price will plummet! ...

Pretty much a certainty.

The problem with using [i]reduced demand[/i] as a means of reducing the price of a product, is that you have to keep the demand at that level. So unless you are suggesting that a few million people refused to buy any fuel indefinitely, then you are wasting your time.

Then of course there is the little problem that producers might reduce the supply (as they often do when prices drop) which leads to a price increase.

Oil is a fairly scarce commodity very much in demand. Other than not using the stuff, there's no other way round that conundrum.

Of course it's true that the oil producers are in control of pricing, however that's only part of the cost isn't it? If the govt. were willing to drop the extortionate amount of revenue charged on fuel and lessen the burden on those that can least afford it, then offset the loss by upping the rate of income tax for those that can afford it, then the price of fuel could be lowered.

What's the chances of that ?

Ok 2yrs ago petrol was circa80p a litre? 48p to the treasury, 32p to oil/retailer/haulier.

130p now say. 78p to the Treasury, 52p to the oil/retailer/haulier....

Part of th oil companies price is driven by the open market/barrel price/exchange fluctuation?

Treasury makes more money the higher the price. In opposition didn't Cameron promise a price fluctuation calculator?

we all know that the govt could reduce prices via tax reduction but that does not get round the problem that oil prices are only going to rise. We could offset this - and speed up the onset as i assume folk would use more if it was cheaper- by reducing tax and then have this debate in another few years time. With increased demand and reduced supply prices can only go in one direction however much you want to moan and blame someone for this. the sensible approach would be to try and reduce our reliance for the future. However anything we do to reduce fuel [ price rise , mileage allowance anyone] use annoys people who think it is unfair that fuel is no longer 80 p a litre and would vote you out. We end up with this fudge where we dont really do anything about it as the govt tries to not let fuel prices go mental and we dont really reduce our reliance. Democracy has its faults as well becuase sometimes the electoral wants it cake and to eat it.

If the govt. were willing to drop the extortionate amount of revenue charged on fuel and lessen the burden on those that can least afford it

Well here in London, we have big red "double-decker" vehicles to transport people who can't afford to buy petrol.

And bloody inconvenient they are too......they cause all sorts of traffic problems.

yes they work well in large cities with an integrated transport policy but outside large areas where the free market reigns the service is poor and the choice is shocking. not profitable not provided and no cross subsidies to encourage use of for public good. I cant get to work on buses at all, literally not possible. Who do we blame for this deregulation again I forget?

A major change in our transport system (and energy sources in general) is needed to get out of our reliance on fossil fuels. It would be shame if all that ended up happening was a switch to electric cars.

As that idiot hammond needs pointing out to him, electric cars don't fix congestion or death on the roads or greater seperation of communities etc etc

Am I allowed to say that the public transport around me is actually pretty good? It can't compete with the car in terms of flexibility, but it's clean and reasonably priced, £11 a week for unlimited travel in say a 4 mile radius of Salisbury. Perhaps its the geography of the area? People always come on and moan about it, so I thought it fair to pipe up. When I had a network card, I could also get to SE Essex on the train for £32 🙂

No matter what you do or say now doesn't make a cat in hells chance of a difference. Indians and Chinese aint going to listen to you. We had our Industrial revolution and if we don't like they'll fight us on the battlefield for the worlds dwindling oil reserves.

This attitude is called "the tragedy of the commons". Using this justification that your actions are so small in such a vast world that you may as well do what you want, doesn't really stand up to scutiny. Would you murder someone because in the grand scheme of things one extra dead person is utterly significant?

Your post is called GCSE/A level Philosophy.

Correction, in 2010 700,000 new cars were sold in Beijing.

Now. What policy is China doing again to avoid 'our mistakes'?

Not much, but is that a good reason for you to do whatever you want?

Chinese etc etc - only care about 'Windsor castle', 'Oxford St' and 'Beefeaters' when they think of the distant land called Britain. Not that we are birching ourselves saying 'look at us we are taxing our citizens heavily on every aspect of their life but also on cars to send you a message'.

Who cares what the Chinese think of Britain? Do you have such little respect for your children, your grandchildren, that you'll keep using as many resources as you want to satisfy your 'lifestyle'? Call me naive if you want but at least I'm not a nihilist.

What policy is China doing again to avoid 'our mistakes'?

I can't be bothered to google for it right now but they do have some fairly progressive eco policies IIRC in several areas. Less so in others I suppose.

They don't however ban the sale of private cars, so the fact that people in Bejing bought 700,000 new cars last year is neither here nor there. Maybe without certain policies it'd have been 800,000.

'there're 700,000 cars in Beijing..
that's a fact,
It's a thing we can't deny
Like I'll love you 'til I die'

Was there ever a consensus on how many bicycles there are in Beijing?

Supply will get to a point where the US military ringfences and 'defends' it. So I don't think arguing over Children and Grandchildrens resource means anything.

BTW, how are you getting to your trails this weekend? I imagine you ride local and don't visit anywhere far.

'there're 9,000,000 bicycles in Beijing..

I'm taking the train 4 stops down the line to the Long Mynd hora. Though as someone said before, "do you have to live in a cave before you can criticise resource usage?

hora - Member
Ok 2yrs ago petrol was circa80p a litre?

Miles off. petrol 90 p, derv 99 p.

D0NK - Member
A major change in our transport system (and energy sources in general) is needed to get out of our reliance on fossil fuels. It would be shame if all that ended up happening was a switch to electric cars.

As that idiot hammond needs pointing out to him, electric cars don't fix congestion or death on the roads or greater seperation of communities etc etc

Agreed.

hora - Member
Your post is called GCSE/A level Philosophy.

So he /she has managed to show the ridiculousness of your argument with with such a basic counter argument but yet you still persevere?

Let suppose the government cut the tax so that fuel is now 80 p a L again. Now what. It's a finite resource, it will go up again but in the mean time the government has has lost a large amount of income. That tax will have to be regained somewhere, but spread over the entire population rather than weighted towards people who use more fuel.

Uncapped growth of anything is impossible. There can not be more and more transport going more and more places. Add in the fact that that there is less and less of the stuff used to fuel this transport and something has to give. So rather throwing a hissy fit and saying it's not fair you need to get on with it and work out how your life and business need to be adjusted. The more creative the clever you are the greater level of your success. Thing don't stay the same.

the bottom line is that some people just don't have the bollocks to say 'f-ck it I don't care'

Oh I do care. I just don't get the 'I will do my bit'. Great. However don't believe that your story will be along the lines of a Vodafone or Coca Cola TV ad 'where the message spreads with smiles and joined arms'.

When the oil runs out there will be alot of fighting and death.

You are doing your bit to pollute and consume beyond what you could Hora which surely is proof enough you don't care. Doing your bit is neither difficult nor expensive. In fact if you look at the cost benefit of most of the things you could do you'd be quids in in under 15years.

There will be fighting and death in those places that haven't prepared for a future without cheap oil.

[i]When the oil runs out there will be alot of fighting and death. [/i]

Unless all the planes and tanks are parked up uselessly cos there's no fuel to put in them... 😉

Is it me or is it much quieter on the roads now? I drove in this morning and one of the roads in particular is usually chock full at that time. There was hardly anything there! Motorway seemed quieter too, I was doing 65mph and I was far from the slowest car there, quite a few sitting there at <60mph even though it was pretty clear.

You are doing your bit to pollute and consume beyond what you could Hora

Now you are assuming and completely missing my point.

Instead of looking inward for efficiency savings of every aspect our Government needs more revenue to simply keep government departments turning.

How soon before the Government launches a future campaign for local communities to 'take control of their streets' i.e clean your own streets (but still asks for increased council tax?).

Keeping fuel tax high is helping to support waste in Government.

crazy-legs - it could be half-term in your area?

The thing is about this arguemnt is that it's not a personal one.

If I say that consuming too much is bad, then go and consume too much - it doesn't mean that what I said was wrong, does it? It makes me weak and feeble, for sure, but it doesn't invalidate what I said.

Or to put it another way, if I say something is good and I strive towards it, I may fail. However the aim is still good.

[i]crazy-legs - it could be half-term in your area? [/i]

That was last week, the roads really were empty then! Maybe there's a few schools off though.

If I say that consuming too much is bad

There are people on this forum that have done/are doing circa 30,000 miles a year for their jobs. Crackers. I wouldn't even be able to ride at the weekend.

I drive at weekends. Fuel costs don't limit me. What limits me is quality time. I also buy secondhand bike bits where possible and secondhand cars so I'm not immediately part of the 'buy new every year' clan that perpetuates waste.

I'm assuming nothing Hora, your lifestyle is one of the best documented on the Interweb.

Once again you put the onus on the government when it's you youself can do something but won't. It's not thme it's you; you are part of the problem and you could stop being part of the problem. When you have done soemthing and are no longer a part of the problem, then is the time to start pressuring you local authorities to cut waste. I've raised the energy efficiency issue in public buildings at political meeting and recieved commitments to do something - and things are being done. For many people all that is required is a convincing argument such as "you'll save money, pollute less and have soemthing positive to report in the local rag".

I'm trying to produce convincing arguments here - such as I cobbled together a solar water heater from the biggest Velux I could buy, 25m of 18mm copper pipe and a tank with a heat exchanger. It cost about 1100e. It works by thermosyphon so requires no pumps or electronics. It feeds the washing machine direct and serves as a pre-heater for a conventional electric tank when the water isn't hot enough for a shower. Result: a 70% reduction in the energy used to produce hot water or a saving of about 100e a year.

You could do it too.

Possibly the funniest thing I have ever read on here. Hora you've outdone yourself

I also buy secondhand bike bits* where possible and secondhand cars**

* Compulsively. Every single day. There is at least one diesel-gobbling Post Office delivery van kept on stand-by to ferry my bought-and-sold bike parts around the country, daily.

** Every other week

so I'm not immediately part of the 'buy new every year' clan that perpetuates waste

I'm speechless. Thats a genius comment. Even for someone with your monumental lack of self-awareness.I think everyone on the forum needs to collectively stand up and give you a round of applause for that statement. Absolutely priceless!

😀

your lifestyle is one of the best documented on the Interweb

I assume you mean secondhand kit. Its hardly lifestyle more a throwback to a poor childhood becoming habit 😉

You could do it too

My house has cavity wall and loft insulation. I also use gas/power sparingly. I also buy reclaimed etc where possible as I naturally hate waste and 'churn'.

Saying all this if I was minted I'd live on a mountain of coke, drive a Quattroporte and have more hookers than Berlusconi.

*stands to applause*

Slow claps mansonsoul back whilst nodding slowly. 😉

Anyone got a 50mm OS stem that they want to sell?

I'm assuming nothing Hora, your lifestyle is one of the best documented on the Interweb.

I'm concerned about what I'm going to have for my tea and this Woman is worried about other things on another level 🙁

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/pictures/photos-10819/pictures-japan-earthquake-of-tsunami-rescue/1

more hookers than [s]Berlusconi[/s] Charlie Sheen.

FTFY

😆 I wonder who really would win that competition? I mean Berluaconi can't just come out and boast about his life of largesse can he?

The dioty ol bugga

BTW, how are you getting to your trails this weekend? I imagine you ride local and don't visit anywhere far.

Now you are assuming and completely missing my point.

Keeping fuel tax high is helping to support waste in Government.

What policy is China doing again to avoid 'our mistakes'?

I like [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy ]this one[/url] of theirs, but I guess it'd not be a vote winner over here...

When the oil runs out there will be alot of fighting and death.

Unless all the planes and tanks are parked up uselessly cos there's no fuel to put in them...

I think this is a massive pointer to what is going to happen.....

One of the big economies will make a move on existing oil before they run out so they can try to control the supply.

How long is it going to be before the fuel producing countries save most of it for themselves and use a small supply to control their allies?

It's all well and good doing what we can now but I seriously can't see the dwindling oil situation ending any way other than seriously badly.

The nuclear situation in Japan is looking like making other countries switch from nuclear (not saying nuclear power is a good thing here) and what are they going to switch to if not natural resources?

Back to the original topic, people got jobs where they could when fuel prices were cheaper. They probably got homes in nice areas based on fuel prices. People may have made a mistake getting these homes and jobs but who could have expected fuel prices to rise this much, this quickly. It's all happened too when there are very few jobs and the ecomony is in a mess so unless we all give up our jobs so the companies can employ those closest to home a lot of people will be getting into financial difficulty.

Just to counter the media hype about Japan's nuclear situation read this from [url= http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/14/fukushiima_analysis/ ]The Register[/url]

Frank Herbert was pondering the oil crisis a long time ago in [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_the_Sea ]The Dragon In the Sea[/url]

The Chinese one child policy may well have a destabilising effect on society given that they all want it to be a boy. In the west I thought our birth rate was declining which is why the gov't said we needed immigration to pay for our pensions...

One of the big economies will make a move on existing oil before they run out so they can try to control the supply

No major economy is going to use world domination by force as their only plan in the event of oil becoming scarce. Not least because waging war takes a lot of oil.

That report in the Register is starting to look very silly in the light of overnight events.

Japan is the worlds third biggest oil consumer. Interesting to see what happens there.

My fear is what if one of these reactors becomes a Chenobyl especially so close to Tokyo? Awful.