[Closed] How hard is it to learn computer programming ?

Depends what you mean by 'best' doesn't it?

wwaswas +1
the best programmers think in machine code and have the social skills of a wolverine.

So learning to program is easy, learning to be a programmer is hard / a matter of aptitude; not everyone is cut out to be one.

[i]"I like the way clients not knowing what they really want is a recurring theme"[/i]
Yeah, I guess that's true.
I think I know what I want, but I'm sure that if I got it, it wouldn't be quite right.
I suppose the easiest way would be for me to say I want something exactly the same as BikeJournal, plus I want it to do X, Y and Z as well.

the best programmers think in machine code and have the social skills of a wolverine.

No, the best ones are brilliant coders and also great pragmatists, mediators and visionaries. Like me 🙂

Analysts talk to clients, programmers talk to analysts. I wouldn't ever let a good programmer near a client

So learning to program is easy, learning to be a programmer is hard / a matter of aptitude; not everyone is cut out to be one.

Learning to program is easy but being a good programmer and learning to program well is very hard.

Some people have what it takes and others don't, but I think that this is the same in every profession.

Analysts talk to clients, programmers talk to analysts. I wouldn't ever let a good programmer near a client

Full of the cliches this thread, isn't it.

What if I'm a good analyst and a good programmer?

What if I'm a good analyst and a good programmer?

Und zwar auf deutsch?!

Germany, yes although I'm wasted here (and not in a good way) 🙂

I wouldn't ever let a good programmer near a client

in fact we should be shunned by normal mortals! One's aptitude for programming is more or less inversely proportional to sociability...

I wouldn't let BARNES near my clients!

Analysts talk to clients, programmers talk to analysts. I wouldn't ever let a good programmer near a client

Tosh. You don't work with very good* programmers then 🙂

* as in life skills as well as techy goodness

Analysts talk to clients, programmers talk to analysts. I wouldn't ever let a good programmer near a client

never heard of a good Analyst/Programmer?

never heard of a good Analyst/Programmer?

I was being kind of tongue in cheek 😉

but no, I found that really good programmers tend to have poor social skills. I can write code, and I can talk to clients, but I wouldn't count myself as being good at either - just ok.

What the customer really wanted:
[img] [/img]

How Marketing proposed it:
[img] [/img]

How the analyst designed it:
[img] [/img]

How the programmer wrote it:
[img] [/img]

what the beta testers received:
[img] [/img]

How the Business Consultant described it:
[img] [/img]

What Operations installed:
[img] [/img]

How it performed under load:
[img] [/img]

When it was delivered:
[img] [/img]

What the customer REALLY wanted:
[img] [/img]

The Disaster Recovery plan:
[img] [/img]

but no, I found that really good programmers tend to have poor social skills

Then I don't consider them really good programmers in general. The days of pizza munching late night geeks in a dark room are dwindling, to be honest.

Then I don't consider them really good programmers in general

programming skill is actually completely unconnected to social skill. I'm sure you could be totally autustic and still a good programmer, however in general terms, the sort of attention to mindless detail required tends to be associated with arrogance and introversion. Extrovert types probably wouldn't have the patience needed.

The thing is, programming is rarely an isolated activity. You need to get along with your colleagues for a start and be able to join in design discussions. The decisions you make in those discussions usually are related to the end product in terms of either product requirements, SLAs, undocumented requirements, usability, business process and project constraints as well as purely academic code issues, and they have to be appropriate bearing these things in mind.

Many geeks can only see the code issues, and this can make life difficult.

You need to get along with your colleagues for a start and be able to join in design discussions.

Business users don't contribute to design, that's not what I am saying. Developers contribute to things that determine how satisfied the customer ends up being.

Maybe there are projects out there where each development task is amazinly well specified in detail and simply needs implementing - but then you wouldn't need a good developer for that, would you?

Seems that the days of having to write difficult code are mostly gone. In my experience 'hard' complicated code is the bad stuff. The good stuff is where it's been kept simple and to the point.

Good programming is good design, and good design depends on interacting with analysts and customers (either directly or by proxy) in a useful way.

Honesty is a separate issue mind 🙂

Maybe there are projects out there where each development task is amazinly well specified in detail

Seems that the days of having to write difficult code are mostly gone.

[i]The best programmers (still) strike fear into the business community due to an excess of honesty[/i]

+1

I've had people working for me that I'd never trust to talk to customer without a translater present.

Prog "It can't be done."
Translation "Well, we could do that for you but it would be a change to the system and chargeable, woudl you like a quote?"
etc etc.

Many geeks can only see the code issues, and this can make life difficult.

All too true - but it's something you can compensate for. Speaking as a project manager the ideal team has decent (and presentable) analysts, a couple of hardcore geeks, and a whole load of plodders.

Analysts tend to come from the second group, you need patience to put up with clients 🙂

The fundamental problem to all these project issues is that not enough people actually understand how computers work.

Prog "It can't be done."
Translation "Well, we could do that for you but it would be a change to the system and chargeable, woudl you like a quote?"

Or in real terms:

Dave the dev: It can't be done
Pete the PM: Oh no worries, we'll have it for you next week. Give us tons of money. Get cracking Dave.

Pembo as I explain to the kids it's magic:

"the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or [i]various other techniques[/i] that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature."

And programmers are just wizards

The fundamental problem to all these project issues is that not enough people actually understand how computers work

Yes, or more to the point, people don't understand what constitutes a good computer system.

Imagine if IT projects were Civil Engineering projects. You'd end up with a dangerous unstable building with rooms all over the place, you could only get in through a series of challenges and few people would know where anything was outside their own office. It'd last for 5 years then either fall down or have to be pulled down. Anyone walking into the building woudl be able to see that, especially the customer, and the architects and builder would be prosecuted.

With computer systems, you can produce and deliver total crap that will either a) need to be replaced after a few years or b) cost millions in maintenence and the customers just think that's how IT is.

Terrible state of affairs 🙁

[i]not enough people actually understand how computers work. [/i]

from Dilbert;

Dilbert: "It's beige and it uses electricity"
Salesman: "Whoa, slow down information overload"

It's like maths - there's some sort of reverse psychology that makes people proud to have a limited understanding of technology.

Even what I thought were quite 'techie' people were expressign incredulity that the Egyptian government could just 'switch off' the internet during the recent troubles there.

I found out recently that the whole country of Burma has one 1.5Mbit connection to the rest of the world in place and some bloke sat there 24/7 with a switch in case anyone does soemthing the regime doesn't like.

I found out recently that the whole country of Burma has one 1.5Mbit connection to the rest of the world in place and some bloke sat there 24/7 with a switch in case anyone does soemthing the regime doesn't like

This isn't an episode of Lost is it?

The fundamental problem to all these project issues is that not enough people actually understand how computers work.

actually, it's the perception amongst some that this is the case which is fundamental! You can drive a car or ride a bike without any idea of how it works, and the same should apply to a computer. Needless to say, this may require cleverer programming than anyone has achieved yet, but you can't blame that on the users. The tragedy is when programmers expect ordinary people to comply with their implementational models.

Knowing how computers work is indeed irrelevant. Customers need to understand software systems a bit though. You don't need to know how a car works to drive one, but it helps if you know what they can and can't do, what they might cost, what might go wrong, what it's likely to look like and what you have to do to keep it working when you walk into a dealership.

Knowing how computers work is indeed irrelevant. Customers need to understand software systems a bit though. You don't need to know how a car works to drive one, but it helps if you know what they can and can't do, what they might cost, what might go wrong, what it's likely to look like and what you have to do to keep it working when you walk into a dealership

More to the point, I'd expect the person signing off the development costs of the car to know a fair amount about what it's capable of, and what his/her customers really want - something you don't always see in software development.

Well yes, exactly - given that millions of pounds are often at stake, half the time it's hundreds of millions of pounds of public money.

I seriously could save billions upon billions for the govt. But I bet no-one would listen to me.

I seriously could save billions upon billions for the govt. But I bet no-one would listen to me.

I know one STW user is quite a senior figure in the field f getting value for money. Not going to name him but will point him at your claim and see if he fancies getting in touch. I can believe what you say though, we do work for govt depts and the waste is shocking :S

hmmm so many interesting view points of Analysts Programmers, i've been one for 15 years, and to be honest never wanted to move from the role,
its quite a perfect role i think,
you get involved in specs, designs, influence the user a bit
they you actually do some real coding
and you usually see the user use it, and of course make a number of changes. 😉

That classic pic above of the Tree and the Swing is one i refered to in much earlier post - after 15 years, still makes me LOL 🙂

for the knowledgeable of you out there,
ive been using C and lots of 3gl stuff and 4gl stuff for years, how easy or what direction should i go into so i can get into the .NET stuff???? with no previous 'Visual' experience before should i do a Course? but a book and cd tutorial, or what most people do, lie on the CV and interview, and then cut and paste code from the previous developer you replaced 🙂 🙂

Lol 🙂

The country needs a central IT department, basically. I've written the exact same code twice for two different areas of govt. In a system that did much the same thing.

No way on EARTH would a multinational company work the way our govt does.

As for forum users, I've often mused upon the fact that some of us could be anyone. Movie stars, royalty, famous scientists, politicians.. 🙂

No way on EARTH would a multinational company work the way our govt does.

Not worked with many multinationals, then?

Best bet for learning .net would be to get hold of a copy of the studio for it and knock some programs out. Then put 'experience of .net' on your CV, and you'll DEFINITELY get calls (I do constantly despite being a Java dev). Then just find someone who'll listen to you as you make your case for how good you are. Show some projects, talk the talk and you'll have a chance.

Not worked with many multinationals, then?

Yes, not worked with Govt much then? 🙂

how easy or what direction should i go into so i can get into the .NET stuff???? with no previous 'Visual' experience before should i do a Course? but a book and cd tutorial, or what most people do, lie on the CV and interview, and then cut and paste code from the previous developer you replaced

The second option's a winner 🙂

If you've got programming experience it shouldn't be too hard, I'd suggest (ignoring my earlier comment...) that you have a play, using a tutorial or whatever, before you start looking. Don't leave Java out of the equation, either - it's just as close to C as C#, despite the name.

The main problem is getting the mind set: programming's just programming when it comes down to it, the hard part is getting your head around the system architecture, the libraries you need to use, etc. It's been a while since I last used C in anger, but I [i]think[/i] C programming is far more company specific, while Java / C# programming is far more dependent on externally imposed standards, industry standard libraries etc.

The programming mindset changes a bit depending on the platform you are using though. The difference in language between say C# and Java are inconsequential. What's different is the environment - all the mountains of libraries that you use. But it's more than just libraries.. I mean Enterprise Java apps are just glue tying together tons of APIs upon APIs not to mention open source projects.. and understanding these is where you make your money.

I suppose .net would be similar.

But yes afaik C and C++ are not as standardised as Java is. Windows C++ is different to Unix C++ because of the environment and the libraries you are likely to encounter.

Yes, not worked with Govt much then?

Yeah, a lot. Both are massively wasteful, the big difference (from what I've seen) is that govt is massively over-ambitious, while private companies are more realistic about scale, and more ruthless at killing projects that start to go wrong.

The programming mindset changes a bit depending on the platform you are using though. The difference in language between say C# and Java are inconsequential. What's different is the environment - all the mountains of libraries that you use. But it's more than just libraries.. I mean Enterprise Java apps are just glue tying together tons of APIs upon APIs not to mention open source projects.. and understanding these is where you make your money.

+1, move into Java and you'll soon learn to love Apache.

Java's brilliant 🙂

Wow the number of clever people on here is quite amazing.

No really, no piss taking!!!!!

I am actually quite impressed, and kind of understand why STW has the reputation it does.

I am also a lot more confused than I was!!!!

I am actually quite impressed, and kind of understand why STW has the reputation it does.

I love that too. Every so often a thread pops up with really interesting stuff on it. Not necessarily this one tho, we've just hijacked it to essentially moan about work 🙂

there's some sort of reverse psychology that makes people proud to have a limited understanding of technology.

I hit this a lot. I think it's the same mentality that makes hoodies aspire to ASBOs as a badge of honour.

I'm sure you could be totally autustic and still a good programmer,

In all seriousness, I'm fairly sure that the best geeks are mostly higher-functioning Aspies. I'm not wholly unconvinced that I shouldn't be including myself in that demographic (and the fact that the stumbling block for me is 'best geek' rather than 'Aspie' probably answers my own question).

I am actually quite impressed, and kind of understand why STW has the reputation it does.

I know I keep plugging this, but you should check out [url= http://mono.org ]Mono[/url], it's a very similar feel to this place.

Every so often a thread pops up with really interesting stuff on it.

have you been following the trains thread then? 😆

In a conversion between two computer scientists how do you tell which one is the mote outgoing?

The one looking at the others shoes.

boom tish!!!

Mono looks pretty interesting.

Mono - I thought you meant the FOSS .NET platform.... shows the geek in me.

how easy or what direction should i go into so i can get into the .NET stuff???? with no previous 'Visual' experience before should i do a Course? but a book and cd tutorial, or what most people do, lie on the CV and interview, and then cut and paste code from the previous developer you replaced

from my experience, you need 50 years commercial experience of the language you're going to use and yet still be under 40. You won't get a foot in the door otherwise

Every so often a thread pops up with really interesting stuff on it. Not necessarily this one tho, we've just hijacked it to essentially moan about work

we didn't need your permission 🙂

we didn't need your permission

After all, we're borderline autistics with few social skills, realising you might need to ask for permission is beyond us 🙂