[Closed] How exactly have humanity been fooled into thinking that?

I actually feel sorry for the people for who the pursuit of materialistic goals drives them - what sad empty lives they lead

Don't worry TJ they'll be happy and no doubt think you are some sort of sad misguided grumbleton who's only happy when he can have a good moan about others

I don't think a lot of them are happy - I see a lot of angst and stress in them.

Again, better if read in a Yoda voice. Amazingingly wise stuff...

...although you might wanna change the word [i]see[/i] to [i]sense[/i] for effect and clarity.

If Richard Branson, or Alan Sugar, or similar came on here decrying ownership of material possessions - and then backed up their rant with moral evidence of their beliefs, then I might sit up and take note.

Sadly, as it is, those that moan most about materialism, generally tend to be those that have the least means to obtain said material possessions, ergo it comes across as bitterness, or self justification of a meagre existance that one has become saddled with.

I read that as rather pompous, but it was my initial thoughts, so I CBA to go back and edit it.

People can be well off, have a life full of material goods and also fulfillment of various natures and be very happy TJ and I'm not talking about myself - I'm horrendously cash poor as it happens.

I'm also a bit pissed, so not even sure if I'm making sense 😉

Does nealglover ever post anything positive or is it all just ranting insults?

I've helped a fair few people on here with information on insulating hard to treat properties way beyond "normal" standards. which is what I do for a living.

Both on the forum, and via email. Free advice from professional tradesman isn't always easy to come by.

Oddly enough, helping them to reduce their bills and use less energy.

I just don't like people ranting about things they don't seem to know a lot about.

I mean, come on. "seismic activity that's knocking the earth off it's Axis" ???!

That's believable eh ?

nealglover - Member

I mean, come on. "seismic activity that's knocking the earth off it's Axis" ???!

Ssh, I'm still hoping he's going to try to prove that.

buzz-lightyear - Member

Kutla gonna pop I reckon. Could be quite disruptive.

Agreed and very soon.

I think the remark about competing, winning and breeding in our local tribe/environment is the reason we fail to respond to global environmental/resource problems. When the resources get really scarce, tribes will do what they always do - go to war.

My questions to keasae are:

"How much wealth (for all in society, without exception) is sufficient?"

Not all in society could be part of a movement that was dedicated to improving circumstances and enhancing quality of life for those involved.

Some would rather argue or fight, than work together to accomplish goals, these disruptive elements could not be involved if any endevour is to succeed. All involved would need to agree to share what is gained from mutual cooperation, equally.

"How should we legally re-distribute wealth and opportunity evenly?"

You are thinking in terms of society as a whole, there is no hope for society as a whole in our culture. Not without great individual change and the average person searching deep inside themselves is not gonna happen.

Individuals should be paid based on what they contribute to the collective group and how much reasources they can aquire, cut out the rich and powerful and you have a lot more to go around, do you not ❓

"Without capital-rich individuals to invest, how will expensive but important developments and projects be funded?"

If we only invest our resources in companies that we have some measure of control over and that are willing to show us where the money is going, then we can fund more and more with our own money.

With effective efficient management of resources a little can go a long way, do not be fooled into thinking that how it is now, is how it must be, every small business, every sole trader, everyone who has taken very little and created something, a company, a beautiful garden, developed a property, has the ability to manage resources and see growth and development, however those that are in charge of our resources, have shown us time and time again, they do not posses this ability.

The majority of a people will always have power, the question is will we choose to exercise that power.

Now is the time for a new way of thinking and viewing our existence, if not now, then when ❓ and if not us ❓ then who ❓

The earths axis has been altered, it is no longer on the same axis that it was, hence why I said that it has been knocked of it's axis.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-03-12/world/japan.earthquake.tsunami.earth_1_tsunami-usgs-geophysicist-quake?_s=PM:WORLD

http://www.****/sciencetech/article-1365821/Japan-earthquake-tsunami-Earths-day-length-shortened-axis-tilted-25cm.html

Do you not understand that the earth's axis isn't fixed? It varies by a little over 2 degrees over its cycle (an average of around 5cm per year, by my back-of-envelope maths). Then there are assorted smaller fluctuations, which have a larger effect but cancel out over a shorter time.

This is just something that planets do. The earth hasn't been "knocked off its axis", it has just changed its axis by a tiny amount, which is nothing out of the ordinary at all, and is just a small part of the greater fluctuations in tilt.

(just for points of comparison- a 1 degree shift is around 110km. The estimates of the movement caused by the quake vary a lot but call it 20cm for ease of maths- that's 1/5000th of a degree, less than the short-term changes to earth's axial tilt caused by tidal forces from the moon)

Or in other words- don't worry about it. You won't read in the papers tomorrow "Moon pulls earth off its axis".

Over the years I've become a great believer that there's a simple biological/evolutionary reason behind just about every human behavioural trait (except crying, never have understood the biological purpose of that - but then I'm a man 😀 ). So, I think these guys hit the nail on the head as an explanation for our current materialistic tendencies:-

we have a genetic hunter gatherer instinct, seeing as we don't hunt for food or shelter we have to fulfil that need by buying stuff

For the entire history of the human race it has been about being better than others in order to survive and ensure your children thrive

However, understanding where those traits came from, and justifying their continued proliferation in the face of mounting evidence that its destroying our planet, are two different things.

Think about another good biological trait ingrained in our genes - the propensity for our bodies to crave sugars and carbohyrates and lay them down in fat stores. This was a successful trait when our ancesters didn't know where their next meal was coming from, but in todays society of plenty it backfires on us and actually leads to lower quality and quantity of life. So, sometimes we're smart enough to recognise and manage our primevel instincts, or allow governments to regulate us for the greater good (think smoking, speeding, age of legal consent etc.).

Why can't we do the same with our self destructive impulses to buy more stuff, and go to war over resources we don't really need? Instead we just throw up our hands and say - its human nature!

Then there's the question of why people continue with their (self) destructive behaviours as evidence mounts around them that its trashing the planet. Sue-W makes an excellent point about people's inability to link action and consequence, but there's more to it than that...

Humans have an amazing ability to look on the positive side of things - and again its a good evolutionary trait, as if many of us knew what was really in store for us for the rest of our lives, we probably wouldn't bother getting out of bed in the morning 🙁 . So, we are overly optomistic about our/politicians/others abilities to get us out of this mess!

The human brain is also very bad at weighing up risks far in the future, or events that could be catastrophic - so that's a double whammy for us reacting logically to something like climate change, which is both. No, our brain is wired to concentrate on where the next meal is coming from, making sure we're not the next meal for some pre-historic carnivore, and whether that girl (or boy) we just met fancies us. It make sense in evolutionary terms - if we all sat around worrying about the end of the world coming it would paralyse us and we wouldn't do any of the things necessary to get through the next few days and weeks - like eat, sleep, wash. By the way - this has happened to Philosophers throughout history, they've literally worried themselves to death!

So, I've huge sympathy for Kaesae's point of view - but I have to temper this with the thought that if all he does is assuage his guilt momentarily by posting on the forum, and then gets on with the kind of lifestyle he berates, then it's all a bit hollow. I think he's pointed out the problem well, but now it's time for him to say what he [i] personally [/i] is going to do about it - or is it everybody else who has to change? 😉 Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but he did start the thread...

Kaesae's a nice guy and all and I've bought stuff from him but I do have to assume he makes a profit (beyond that required to live) from his bearings and tools and I bet doesn't ask about workers conditions and factory envrironmental policies in China (I assume this is where his stuff is made).

TandemJeremy - Member
I don't think a lot of them are happy - I see a lot of angst and stress in them.

Posted 10 hours ago # Report-Post

Anyway; got to go and evict the widow from the second flat I own. I will have mobile internet with me in case anybody is wrong/needs advice on employment law.

Nice one Kaesae this has turned into a really interesting thread (get's another coffee). I think at some point we all question the selfishness of our species. I'm not reading all those reports though Sue, I've only got so much coffee! 😯

kaesae - Member
No need for flowery words or long drawn out explanations, seizmic activity is increasing

[img] [/img]
Number of earthquakes with a magnitude of 7 or greater over the last two decades
[url] http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/earthquakes/earthquakeActivity.html [/url]
This is not to say I think we can carry on as a species at our present rate of resource consumption.

Here's a nice little video for you that explains it all.

[url= http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html ]Richard WIlkinson talk[/url]

The trouble is that we are constantly brainwashed by the advertising industry to equate what we own with who we are. Breaking that link is the first step to getting out of the mess we are making for oursleves.

[i]Which enduro bike for £3.5k? My existing bike is two years old, extinct...[/i]

This thread needs Fight Club quotes
http://www.quotegarden.com/bk-fc.html

It used to be enough that when I came home angry and knowing that my life wasn't toeing my five-year plan, I could clean my condominium or detail my car. Someday I'd be dead without a scar and there would be a really nice condo and car. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 6

The trouble is that we are constantly brainwashed by the advertising industry to equate what we own with who we are.

Environment aside, that's the nub of it for me. We are essentially defined by our possessions. The industry doesn't need to brainwash us anymore because we absolutely unequivocally believe that possessions make us better people.

Are you applying that "we" word to everyone eveywhere or just those in, say, this country...?

Are you applying that "we" word to everyone eveywhere or just those in, say, this country...?

I'm sure common sense can enable you to answer that yourself.

Judging by the way the developing world seeks to emulate western consumerism the answer must be everyone everywhere.

Judging by the way the developing world seeks to emulate western consumerism the answer must be everyone everywhere.

seeks?

Or "has been forced"

Personally, I absolutely unequivocally believe that you know little of people's lives as a whole and are making a very rash and sweeping generalisation. This thread will be full of them if we keep trying to blame global warming/climate change/armageddon/world's end/fall of western society/fall of humanity on one single issue. I personally believe overpopulation is a major part but I doubt folk will stop breeding anytime soon...

Seeks.

It's probably too late to worry about it. Humans are likely to be extinct within 500 years, although it's a moot point as to whether the planet will become too hostile for their survival or they will die in a nuclear conflict triggered by someone's desire to control what remains of the oil/fresh water/rare earth metals. Then evolution, which responds to stress, will begin to create new species to fill the gaps, which will develop, thrive or die out, until one becomes dominant and...

Happy New Year

I personally believe overpopulation is a major part but I doubt folk will stop breeding anytime soon...

Global birth rates have been falling for at least the last 50 years.

Here's a nice little video for you that explains it all

Nice one rightplacerighttime.

My personal favourite about the dangers of rampant consumerism is "The Story of Stuff" - couple of years old now, but still hits the target like a laser guided smart bomb...

There won't be a total extinction but global population may well fall back to pre-industrial levels

I'm crying now.

Thinking about it, how can Michael Jackson make songs like this then go and take 800 year old stone carvings from Buddhist temples in Thailand to put on his stoopid ranch.

EDIT I wear 10 year old pants and only buy shit when other shit breaks

Global birth rates have been falling for at least the last 50 years.

Don't take this with the wrong attitude but can you produce any evidence of that...? I'm genuinely interested because, as written, I believe this to be a problem and it seems foolish for me to talk shit in debates with my friends if I don't have a leg to stand on.

I wear 10 year old pants...

TMI

Seeks.

We'll have to disagree on that one.

Although obviously western culture does look enticing.

[img] [/img]

Whilst his 'rant' does have it failings (and a whiff of hipocrisy) I'm inclinded to agree with the OP..

Over the past year my spending has got out of control, I now own more bikes (including a new motorbike) that I never use because I'm having to work all the time to pay for stuff. I hate it, its like its smothering me and the only time my mind is taken off it is when I go on CRC or down my LBS and buy something else.

We're sold this image of success based on the amount of objects we own, and the grading of that success is down to the quality of said objects. You own a new car? Nice! You own a new BMW? Even better!

Someone on here posted about a bloke they'd had stay with them who was travelling the world on his bike. I got the impression he had very little in the way of 'stuff' and yet the poster stated he was the most contented man he'd ever met. I would love to be that bloke.

Fight Club has plenty of awesome quotes - the one that stands out for me is

'You're not the car you drive'.....

Don't take this with the wrong attitude but can you produce any evidence of that...? I'm genuinely interested because, as written, I believe this to be a problem and it seems foolish for me to talk shit in debates with my friends if I don't have a leg to stand on.

[url= http://www.worldbank.org/depweb/english/beyond/beyondco/beg_03.pdf ]World bank report[/url]

Page 18

Funnily enough population growth came up in conversation at the pub last night and someone who usually knows told me that pretty soon (if not already) we will be dipping below replacement rate in terms of birth rate. The main reason for overall continued world population growth rate at the moment is people living longer, not numbers being born.

Individuals should be paid based on what they contribute to the collective group and how much reasources they can aquire,

Isn't this the curent situation?

Companies pay individuals according to that individuals worth to the company. Individuals support companies to the extent that the company provides something the individual wants. Therefore, people are paid based on what they contribute to the group, and aquire resources as a result. Done!

Companies pay individuals according to that individuals worth to the company. Individuals support companies to the extent that the company provides something the individual wants. Therefore, people are paid based on what they contribute to the group, and aquire resources as a result. Done!

I think he's indicating more at the fact that footballers get paid more than nurses...

I think he's indicating more at the fact that footballers get paid more than nurses...

Someone on here posted about a bloke they'd had stay with them who was travelling the world on his bike. I got the impression he had very little in the way of 'stuff' and yet the poster stated he was the most contented man he'd ever met. I would love to be that bloke.

This makes a lot of sense.

My wife's friends & family in Brazil have very little in the way of money or posessions, yet they were some of the most content & generous people I've had the privilege of spending time with.

Being content with very little, or being content with your 'lot' is a good place to be in my opinion.

when a collective group of 22 nurses can satisfy the needs of 60,000 people on a Saturday afternoon week in week out, then yes, they deserve a pay rise

?

Interesting interpretation of 'needs' there.

Nobody 'needs' football.

Or perhaps next time you're in hospital you'll be happy if 22 footballists perform the operation?

Interesting interpretation of 'needs' there.

I haven't needed hospital attention in 40+ years, yet I still pay.

Then you are [b]lucky[/b]

Pity the poor sod with terminal cancer who used up all of what you paid in.

I believe that the answers to this thread are over on the wall-hung telly thread..

60,000 people have decided that not only do they need football

No they haven't, they've decided they enjoy watching football for a bit of entertainment maybe more than other things and are happy to spend a bit of cash to enjoy their interest.

Only a fool would claim they 'needed' it.

It's just a hobby at the end of the day.

Thanks for that, RPRT - interesting stuff.

But let's take that "absolutely" bit that you wrote and went on to imply that [b]everyone[/b] falls into that catagory. I don't believe I do because of my lifestyle and I believe there are others of a similar ilk (take the bike geezer a few are talking of). How do we fit into the absolute bit of your statement...?

Avoiding the issue of people needing football and needing emergency care..

Applying some man maths

400,000 nurses in the uk for all types of care
247 A&E departments in the UK
15 nurses per A&E department (estimate based on reports I could find on Google taking the average)
3705* number of A&E nurses in the UK (15 x 247)
62,218,761 number of people in the UK
17603 people per A&E nurse
x22 (the number of players in two football teams) = 387,263

So on this basis they should be paid more...

*Estimate - could be massively inaccurate

But let's take that "absolutely" bit that you wrote

Huh?

Ha, sorry. You lot with weird not-names all read the same. 🙂

On a re-read I see it was Fervouredimage that made the comment. My apologies again.

Care to reply, FI...?

So is teasel your real name?

I struggle with long sentences, but kaesae - you are bonkers. We have not been FOOLED into thinking we like personal gain. Talk about jumping to the conspiratorial conclusion.

We have evolved with an urge to look after ourselves and our immediate friends and family, and it's quite obvious why. Think back to small tribes of say Native Americans (those wonderful people we love to idealise) raiding and murdering each other all the time.

You are a nice bloke but you need to ditch the rose-tinted specs, seriously!

So is teasel your real name?

Of course not. What I meant (and rather tongue-in-cheek I might add) by not-name is that your moniker is not a noun. Not that there are any rules obviously.

Like I wrote - a mistake on my part in as much as I failed to read the name of the author of the post.

Started reading this thread, then skipped the middle pages and thought i'd dive right in -

Surely part of the problem is that as a global race we simply dont need to all get on to survive our own complicated lifetimes. Some people have contacts all over the world, others have reached a ripe old age having never even been abroad. To the majority their own little life bubble is all they can attempt to cope with.

The public, Parish Councils, Local Government, Central Government, Individual MP's - all have their own agendas and only really care about themselves.

Ok Celebrities bleat on about causes but really thats only self promotion - do you really think they would give a t*ss if they didnt get coverage of them weeping outside a tent in Africa ? Nope of course not.

Sadly I think we will all walk headfirst into our own downfall, noses firmly shoved into the backside of our own self importance....

Anyway in cheerful news i got 7 hrs straight sleep last night despite having an 11wk old ! yay ! The world can burn and the poor can starve but im happy !

I'll count myself out of your "we" if you don't mind. I'll exclude quite a few of my friends too. Why? We (my we, not yours):

spend significantly less than our income, have savings but no debt

live in homes that are energy neutral or positive

consume at a rate that is sustainable for the country we live in.

work very little. Madame is the only one in our household to work for only 15 contracted hours a week in a job she enjoys enough to be happy to work a few hours overtime - over three months holiday a year.

If we lived up to our income we'd have flash house with a swimming pool in the garden, a fat Audi and Cooper S on the drive, and a pile of useless electronic junk littering our lives.

Some people on STW don't have enough income to have much choice about how they live but many do, and it seems to me they chose the Audi and Cooper S over quality of life. So Teasel does have a point.

Humanity only has one destiny, so since we will all share the same fate, I reserve the right to refer to us as we!

Good to hear the you are cool though!

I know, Kaesae, at least I've can enjoy the time before it all goes tits up enjoying a relatively stress free and full life (a 14-year-old son does his best to raise stress levels).

Sounds like you have a good life and I'm glad to hear it, too many people have it rough these days.

I want a house not too big, too much tidying, in the middle of knowhere, workshop for my bikes, study for my company and a woodland close by.

Keep it simple, but appreciate what you have 😉

Only a fool would claim they 'needed' it.

😉

Edukator do you ever worry about coming over as a right smart-arse?

We all chart our own courses through life. Some find themselves in stormy waters, some have plain sailing. For a variety of reasons. Do not pour scorn on people who struggle.

No, Molgrips. It's what my STW persona is all about. I think my pseudo announces the colour. The only worrying thing is that I'm telling the truth.

Some people on STW don't have enough income to have much choice about how they live but many do

I recongnise and have stated some people don't have much choice but some of the choices STWers make and keeping up with the Joneses threads leave me shaking my head in dismay.

Allegations of 'keeping up with the joneses' are almost entirely false. I buy stuff because it is gives me something I want. I don't give a crap who else has it. I think most people feel the same.

I buy stuff because it is gives me something I want. I don't give a crap who else has it. I think most people feel the same.

That's what the marketeers want you to think. That you have come to these decisions all by yourself.

*doffs tinfoil hat*

You may resist Molgrips but the sheep-like buying of certain brands and jumping onto bandwagons is comical to watch from afar.

Congratulations Edukator - but I don't understand why Audis and Quality of Life are mutually exclusive. Let's generalise some more, shall we?

I want a house not too big, too much tidying, in the middle of knowhere, workshop for my bikes, study for my company and a woodland close by.

Buying an Audi rather than say the equivalent VW or skoda is a goood way of making yourself poorer to buy status over function. As for the Cooper S it's an utterly pointless fashion statement on today's crowded, speed camera littered roads. They are the cars I've used to symbolise buying into a dream rather than keeping your feet on the ground.

I mentioned friends with a Ferrari and AMG Merc on another thread. They also had a house with a guest house at the bottom of the garden. It was pretty much all on credit and a minor blip in the economy meant they couldn't take enough out of the business to pay for it all and the business went bankrupt. Living beyond their means to create an artifical image and lifestyle. They don't speak to me anymore, can't think why.

On a re-read I see it was Fervouredimage that made the comment. My apologies again.

Care to reply, FI...?

No, not really, because you've picked on an utterly moot point and ignored the over arching theme of my post.

Not that I would expect much more.

Don't take this with the wrong attitude but can you produce any evidence of that...? I'm genuinely interested because, as written, I believe this to be a problem and it seems foolish for me to talk shit in debates with my friends if I don't have a leg to stand on.

A night out with you must be a barrel of laughs.

+1 wot Edukator says

Buying an Audi rather than say the equivalent VW or skoda is a goood way of making yourself poorer to buy status over function

Audis are nicer than VWs. However I would not buy one.

The point I am trying to make is that it is not always about STATUS. You make us out to be even more shallow and vacuous than we actually are.

Oh look, another sweeping generalisation thread where the usual omniscient suspects cast judgement on “humanity”.

How does one become as perfect as they?

usual omniscient suspects

You make us out to be even more shallow and vacuous than we actually are.

Alas, I think Edukator is dead right.

Happy to count you as an exception molgrips, but I'm afraid, on the whole...

[img] [/img]

... this is the reality of the world we live in.

How does one become as perfect as they?

Start thinking?

Brilliant comments as ever from Edukator!

I live in the Lakes - my Cooper S is great on our empty non-speed camera littered roads... Mountain biking is great here too!

But you are of course correct - my quality of life is just terrible...

And if the entire population of the world were to have a Cooper S each?

May I have your attention please!

May I have your attention please!

😀

EDIT - Sneaky edit there Kaesae... I'll return the favour and keep it civil too!

Eh?