[Closed] How does one go about finding a computer programmer?

Throw a stick on here and you'll hit loads 😉

somebody else ... quoting double what we think the job should cost

my developer spidey sense is ringing some massive alarm bells! 😉

somebody else ... quoting double what we think the job should cost

What is the existing front end written in?

It's best to talk in hushed tones and make no sudden movements. If you sit quietly in the dark for long enough one of the adventurous ones might scuttle past in the eternal hunt for coffee.

There were a load of socially dysfunctional programmers talking very loudly about condoms (whilst sober) in a curry house in Cambridge the other night. Really spoiled the atmosphere. I was tempted to go over and say 'Indoor voices please children', but then thought better of it. Nothing worse than a pack of social miss-fits.

I suggest posting an ad in a local curry house with a picture of a condom on the page.

We go through a recruitment agency. Is that too obvious? Probably that's the expensive option.

[url= http://www.peopleperhour.com/ ]People per Hour[/url] and [url= https://www.elance.com/ ]Elance[/url] for starters.

If you need to do this on the cheap, you could try one of the freelancer sites like [url= http://www.getacoder.com/ ]http://www.getacoder.com/[/url] The idea is that you put a spec of the job you want doing up and someone, somewhere will bid for it and you choose who you want to do the work. Bids will come in from anywhere but especially Asia. If your job can be precisely defined and you don't need ongoing support, it might work for you.

If you need ongoing support or it's complex, you need to revisit the

quoting double what we think the job should cost

[i]somebody else who we kind of know quoting double what we think the job should cost[/i]

I'd be nervous about writing an app to sit on someone else's database.

How did you arrive at your guesstimate for the price?

What is the existing front end written in?

Existing front end is legacy.

The semi finished/abandoned front end was written in, hang on I forgot (I think the developer didn't really know it either and was using me as an opportunity to learn new skills, he then got a nice offer contracting and relegated our job to p/t then he stopped communicating altogether the plum) something web/browser friendly?

Top tip: when describing a job to anyone vaguely professional (programmer/plumber/builder/graphic designer/whatever) do not start with 'it'll basically be a ........' (even if it is)

he then got a nice offer contracting

Sounds like you weren't paying market rate. You'll need to pay market rate, which could account for the difference between your expectations and the quotes.

Pay peanuts...

Computer science student doing a year in industry is your cheapest bet. You'd get one for a year for the same money as a month from a contractor. Chances are they'd be just as good too.

he then got a nice offer contracting

Sounds like you weren't paying market rate. You'll need to pay market rate, which could account for the difference between your expectations and the quotes.

Pay peanuts...

Maybe so, the guy we ended up with was sub-contracted by the people we'd used before - but he was fully aware of the job and quoted the price in agreement with the contractors.

Computer science student doing a year in industry is your cheapest bet. You'd get one for a year for the same money as a month from a contractor. Chances are they'd be just as good too.

bahahhahahahahhahahhahhahahahahahhaaa.

sorry.

chances are that they'd be a hacker; if you did end up with something that worked it would be completely unmaintainable and full of bugs.

I've had a few IPs in the past who have been fantastic, but they are the exception, rather than the rule and even the best ones are very undisciplined.

Imagine hiring a cheap sparky, who could get all your lights working by trial and error for a tenth of the price of an experienced tradesman who would label everything, fit it down the proper conduits and make sure you didn't electrocute yourself when you turned the tap on to brush your teeth.

Fixing something is often more difficult than building from scratch.

OP if you don't know the language the front end was written in (or if it was actually finished) how can you make a call on the cost of the work ?

Maybe so, the guy we ended up with was sub-contracted by the people we'd used before - but he was fully aware of the job and quoted the price in agreement with the contractors.

In that case, it sounds like he didn't treat you very well, but I expect he would have stuck around if the price had been right. Possible that the 'unexpected' (which is always actually predictable) happened, and the job started to look a lot less profitable, so he bailed.

Bespoke software is expensive. I'd advise you to find an off the shelf solution, or be prepared to invest heavily.

bahahhahahahahhahahhahhahahahahahhaaa.

Cheap and cheerful has its place.

Agreed, but bespoke software is not it.

Agreed, but bespoke software is not it.

You are completely right in that if you can get an off-the-shelf solution that would always be preferable.

OP if you don't know the language the front end was written in (or if it was actually finished) how can you make a call on the cost of the work ?

We have an existing legacy system - we pointed at it - showed him how it worked and said - make it work like that but using sql. No problems squire. They came back with a couple of options simple front end or something a bit more whizz bang and internetsy, they pushed the latter we agreed on the quote. Was £5kish a couple of years ago, which seems fine - couple of years bit of inflation also fine - new peeps quoting £10k (no way is there 40 or even 20 days work in this project) just want to see if the old quote was too cheap as possibly alluded to by others or if maybe £10k is the going rate?

Run a few computer languages past me I'm sure I'll remember.

VB?
Java?
Javascript?
PASCAL?
COBOL?
RPG?
BASIC?
LOGO?
Modula-2?

Run a few computer languages past me I'm sure I'll remember.

Ada, Fortran, LISP, COBOL, Pascal...

😉

Found it think it was ASP.net

Just to add to above the last project I worked on the "tweaks" to the system cost more than the licence, admittedly not a small job but the system was the most complete we could find.

As above I would find something off the shelf or learn excel properly and do it yourself. I suspect the fixes will cost a lot because what you need is a re-write. Who knows what, if any, documentation/notes the original developer left.

new peeps quoting £10k (no way is there 40 or even 20 days work in this project)

Python
PHP
Ruby
ColdFusion (...ahem...)

ASP.net isn't a language. Typically c# or VB.

It was part of my job to write programmes in Fortran in 1987 ! Those where the days. LISP and Prolog in the job prior 8) Pascal at college. Now I'm feeling ancient.

new peeps quoting £10k (no way is there 40 or even 20 days work in this project)

That's cheap for 20 days for a short term project.

I think the original quote was for 10 days, 80 hours. No doubt that's cheap too, sigh.

To be fair, getting someone decent in to do a contract that short is going to cost. 500 notes a day seems almost reasonable for a good ASP.NET developer.

good ASP.NET developer

I don't think he was, think he was doing it on the fly and as suggested above was looking less profitable for him so he dumped us.

[i]original quote was for 10 days, 80 hours. [/i]

Did that include developing the Db?

It sounds like it was not much more than 2 or 3 forms plus the db?

My company has just put some software out to tender. 3 different independent companies. All came back with rough figures of between £750 to £1200 per programmer per day. And these were fairly long, 6month+, jobs. There was even set up charges on top of that.

Admittedly it was a fairly esoteric branch of software, but still didn't shock us too much.

£10k doesn't get you much in the contract world.

Did that include developing the Db?

How do you mean?

designing the database (including normalising it, defining keys, foreign keys, etc), writing any stored procedures, creating maintenance plans, creating backup schedule, installing sql on the server, deploying the database etc.

Was/is there a database already in place? What is it? MSSQL, Oracle, MySQL or even MSAccess?

In my previous life as analyst/developer most "programmers" didn't have a clue about database design and therefore how to use SQL effectively and efficiently (by far the most important part of any database driven system IMO).

Cheap coders have their place but if you want a job doing properly so that you don't have to keep bodging it later or redesigning it completely, pay for someone decent. This is dependent on the size/scope of your database and system obviously. Make sure that whoever does the work spends some time going through a requirements specification with you before even touching the code.

designing the database (including normalising it, defining keys, foreign keys, etc), writing any stored procedures, creating maintenance plans, creating backup schedule, installing sql on the server, deploying the database etc.

Database is designed we don't need it redesigned, merely replicated - I can do it in Access surely a programmer should be able to do it without too much trouble using (MS) sql - but yes to all the other bits, all in the quote, all with hours that each should/would take.

My company has just put some software out to tender. 3 different independent companies. All came back with rough figures of between £750 to £1200 per programmer per day. And these were fairly long, 6month+, jobs. There was even set up charges on top of that.

Admittedly it was a fairly esoteric branch of software, but still didn't shock us too much.

Wow - we're not charging enough! What sort of esoteric software are you working with?

Database is designed we don't need it redesigned, merely replicated - I can do it in Access surely a programmer should be able to do it without too much trouble using (MS) sql - but yes to all the other bits, all in the quote, all with hours that each should/would take.

Who designed it? As mentioned above, is it normalised, have referential integrity rules in place, primary and foreign keys, indexing? If your system is going to have large amounts of data, it's going to be important that the db is designed well and is scalable otherwise performance may become an issue in the long run and you'll end up having to redesign it anyway...

Who designed it

A computer programmer, who worked on international bank databases, hasn't let us down yet.

Who designed it
A computer programmer

You let a programmer design a database? Now I see your problem 😉

(sucks teeth) what 'kin cowboy put these in mate? Whole lots gonna 'ave to come aaat

As a contractor in the 'web development' industry myself, we're lucky enough to be in a position where we can almost pick/choose the jobs we want to work on. I get several calls during an average working week offering me new roles across the country at quite frankly ridiculous day rates.

You can look for cheap contractors/freelance developers - but as others have said you get what you pay for. Getting a student fresh out of college won't have had the experience in securing an application enough to withstand penetration testing (oh'er), yet more experienced developers may snub your small project.

In any terms this:

somebody else ... quoting double what we think the job should cost

Would have alarm bells ringing, and I'd be interested in how you came to your estimate based on little or no programming experience. Would you quote for the extension on your house too and tell a builder how much the job should be?

Leave coke and pizza next to some rocks, return the next day and see which rocks have no coke/pizza left?

(I am a Developer/was anyway by the way).

Hmmm pizza.

coke and pizza

you're attracting the wrong crowd - the experienced devs around here want steak and real ale 🙂

[img] [/img]

you're attracting the wrong crowd - the experienced devs around here want steak and real ale

Hmm, our company feeds ours on free Pizza, but they all are pretty young....

In any terms this:

somebody else ... quoting double what we think the job should cost

Would have alarm bells ringing, and I'd be interested in how you came to your estimate based on little or no programming experience. Would you quote for the extension on your house too and tell a builder how much the job should be?

Maybe read the thread?

[i]the experienced devs around here want steak and real ale [/i]

And all the remaining Cobol developers have to be offered soft food they can eat with their teeth out...

And all the remaining Cobol developers have to be offered soft food they can eat with their teeth out...

Brilliant 😀

Maybe read the thread?

So you got a quote from someone who was using your site to learn new skills with 2 years ago and now feel it should be applicable to an experienced ASP.Net developer?

The likelihood is he underquoted the job because he knew he couldn't charge you the full going rate based on his experience level. So for him he would still get paid quite well, and also have a chance of learning a new framework/language at the same time.

I would suggest approaching a reputable software house and ask them to provide you with a functional specification (it'll cost you to have this produced). This may mean several meetings to flesh out what you have at the moment, and what you want your bespoke software to actually do. But you'll end up with a document you can then get sensible, more accurate quotes on.

There's nothing worse that trying to quote on a job that's all verbal/email as normally things get forgotten or overlooked. Feature creep then sets in and the job will end up costing more than the original quote.

So you got a quote from someone who was using your site to learn new skills with 2 years ago and now feel it should be applicable to an experienced ASP.Net developer?

We got a quote from developers/software peeps, the actual developer was subcontracted to do the job inc consultation with us, they quoted we accepted. I don't actually care if it's ASP.net really any front end would do, the simpler (cheaper?) the better

When you say 'front-end', will that be customer facing, internal usage - or just an interface to manage the SQL database?

If it's the latter, maybe something like this could suit your needs?

[url= http://www.mylittleadmin.com/en/welcome.aspx ]http://www.mylittleadmin.com[/url]

I may be interested in taking a look at this but it would have to be on a part-time basis as it's no longer my main job. My rates would be reasonable (certainly a lot less than £500 a day).

I would also need a lot more information and to draw up a specification before I start any programming. PM me if you are interested.

Common Business Orientated Language - it has a certain ring to it !

(i've read the thread)

It's still a bit odd the OP seems to know how much it should cost despite not knowing where to find a programmer, and not knowing how to do it themselves.

They have two quotes, but one is for a half arsed incomplete job by someone inexperienced (might not be what was quoted, but it's what you got) the other is unknown.

Do you pay lunch expenses?

geoffj - Member

Do you pay lunch expenses?

😀

Where are you based Bimbler?

[i]How did you arrive at your guesstimate for the price? [/i]

Based on my old user base, it was whatever they'd decided their budget was (or had left).

Bimbler - have you got a fairly accurate description of the job? If you want to send it through, I'm happy to give you a very ballpark estimate in return, rather than just moaning how much devs should/shouldn't get paid.

I'm too full of work right now to do it anyway, this year, so it will purely be for interests sake.

Rachel

EDITED

Looks like you're after more than I could offer in my spare time.. shame though.. I like a challenge 🙂

If it's simple then maybe I can help.

Dropped you an email.

The posts ^^ are probably what you need to be doing ie getting a proper evaluation of the solution you are aiming for. That is the most critical part of this. Yes, you could get a quick and cheap job done that involves custom coding and development work. But what about ongoing support? What about future changes that you suddenly decide may be desirable? Could the solution be provided through off the shelf software that may end up costing you a lot less in the long run? To a degree, the language doesn't really matter that much provided you have the solution spec, workflow, outputs etc. Bottom line is that a good quality, custom developed solution is not cheap.

If you would like me to take a look at it I'd be happy to do so. It appears to be exactly what I do for a living. You can email me on jaburrow at btinternet dot com and you can see what I do on LinkedIn under my profile - Julian Aburrow. You can also see my recommendations there.

I'm available from 18th November.

I'll give you an honest appraisal of whether I can do what you need, how long I think it's going to take and how much it'll cost (and it won't be anything like as much as £500 per day).

Mrs RIckmeister ("orangina" on here)also does this, is a three tier architecture specialist and is a senior developer in a good software development company... if you want an industry quote.

http://www.eschbachit.com/en/