Stoffel, maybe you should let the foreign minister of Canada in on the detail on this thread. perhaps he's unaware. He seems even lest inclined to apologise for Israel's behaviour than Nim. The IDF should be commended he says.. Perhaps he reads the telegraph.
So... Air strikes on care homes? A good thing? Apparently so.
Hamas launch rockets from care homes, from mosques, from Hospitals and schools...This is a deliberate choice to ratchet up the death toll which is in their interests. they care less about their own civilians then you do. Israel actually published notices to residents before air strikes at populated areas. including house calls! - how many other armies would do that. That is why John Baird says the IDF should be commended.
^More Israeli propaganda. It doesnt mattter how you dress it up, nothing justifies the actions of the Israeli military, when they indiscriminately kill innocent civilians. Nothing. regardless of where the rockets are launched from, by the time the retaliation cmes, those firing the rockets are long gone. THe IDF know this. Which makes such retaliation utterly barbaric and militarily pointless. The rockets continue to be fired. All killing innocent people does, is further enrage those who already hate you.
Yes Israel should just disband its army and throw open the borders, everyone will live happily ever after. Even George Galloway would be happy with that.
Israel actually published notices to residents before air strikes at populated areas. including house calls! - how many other armies would do that
Genuine question. What's the point of the air strikes? Do they say "someone took a shot at us from this school/house/care home/shop so we're going to destroy it in 6 hours time"?
Is the aim to kill the people firing the rockets? To destroy the rocket launch infrastructure? Or something else?
Edit: I specifically mean the pre-announced air strikes. Stopping someone who's in the act of prepping a rocket to be launched at you is, surely, pretty uncontroversial.
Yes Israel should just disband its army and throw open the borders, everyone will live happily ever after.
Yes the Palestinans should just quietly move somewhere else and let the zionist settler expansionists just bulldoze their homes without question. Even Baruch Goldstein would have been happy with that.
John Baird is an apologist for the Zionist regime (do some research if you wish) and has financially benefited from his stance.
Tell you what….. get the Israelis to retreat to pre 1967 borders and we'll call it quits?, otherwise i am perfectly at ease with my support for Palestinians fighting for control over their future and regain control of their country.
I guess i'm out of this as arguing over such a topic, especially on a forum as heavily moderated as this is **** pointless and i'd just end up expressing my true feelings which i imagine would upset the hand wringers.
Bails - I dont know but if thats where the stockpiles are then perhaps thats what their aiming for. Apparently I am an apologist zionist but even given this lofty status, the idf and shin bet are not texting me their plans and intel although perhapasif I tell them about stw they will.
Stofffel - the Palestinians should have their own independent state as per a political negotiation. Abbas may be someone to negotiate with but doesnt seem to have the clout re Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other factions.
Somafunk - many Israelis would consider 67 borders re peace but Jerusalem is tiny if youre planning to split it aand needssafe access to Jewish holy sites if to be under PA control.
[url= http://forward.com/articles/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/?p=all#ixzz374CPB51T ]This is an interesting account[/url]
But as an added point, if Israel were to pull back to 67 lines, do you really believe Hamas etc would stop there?
Peace deals have been offered in the past but rejected each time.
Peace deals have been offered in the past but rejected each time.
Of course that's utter bullshit, but it's exactly what we expected you to say.
Really? Talks didnt happen re Rabin, Barak, Olmert? Was Rabin and Arafat om the white house lawn and nobel peace prize bull too or just my imagination
Talks happened and the Palestinians were invited to commit national suicide, which they declined. As any fool can see, it is PRECISELY because Fatah and the PLO were not given a reasonable peace offer that they could recommend to the Palestinian people that Hamas (ironically created with Israel's help to counter the PLO) became popular.
All the time the Israelis negotiated, they carried on illegally building settlements. As Sharon (the war criminal) was so fond of saying: "facts on the ground". The whole thing was a charade
Israel makes it s own rules and **** the UN and everybody else. They carry the chip of the holocaust and think they can do what the hell they like. Fubar.
stoffel - Member
I think it's important to understand that zionists don't speak for all Jews,and in fact are in a minority.
For sure, and I don't think that's disputed at all. And more the shame for it.
I wonder if there wasn't national service, would the IDF be able to function as it does now? Would the hawkish elements have as much support?
nim - Member
the idf and shin bet are not texting me their plans and intel although perhapasif I tell them about stw they will.
Interesting that you mention Shin Bet. Have you seen The Gate Keepers? 6 former heads of Shin Bet discussing Israel's tactics.
Avraham Shalom: Peri kept showing us this chart. How many people were caught? How many informers were there? How many attacks were prevented? How many weren't? The picture was always rosy, but it was point specific. [b]There was no strategy, just tactics.[/b]
Avraham Shalom: Gradually there was an increase... [b]To put it cynically, luckily for us, terrorism increased.[/b] Why do I say that? Because now we had work and we stopped dealing with the Palestinian state. Understood? As soon as we stopped dealing with the Palestinian state and started dealing with terrorism, terror became more sophisticated. So did we. Suddenly we had a lot of work in Gaza and the West Bank, and overseas, too, so we forgot about the Palestinian issue.
Ami Ayalon: I can prove to you that Hamas did not become more moderate after Sheikh Yassin was eliminated. I can prove to you that when we killed Abbas Musawi and Nasrallah took over instead, the security in Israel didn't really improve. [b]That's why, when we deal, not with the one coming to kill us immediately, but with the person preaching, we are headed toward a place, which is forbidden by international law and basic justice[/b] poses huge question marks as to its ethics, but I'm talking as head of the Shin Bet. [b]It's ineffective.[/b]
Yuval Diskin: As Head of the Shin Bet, you learn that politicians prefer binary options. They don't like having three or four options. They want you to tell them "Zero or one. Do it. Don't do it." As a commander, I find myself in situations that are different shades of gray.
My emphasis. But I recommend watching the film. FUBAR is an understatement.
samj - MemberStoffel, maybe you should let the foreign minister of Canada in on the detail on this thread. perhaps he's unaware.
You've just discovered that Western governments support Israel, how the hell did you think that Israel got away their brutal treatment of Palestinians and illegal acts under international law, without even sanctions?
You don't have to go all the way to Canada to find examples of pro-Israeli sentiments, much nearer to home British Prime Minister David Cameron fully supports Israel. And the last time that Israel slaughtered Palestinians in Gaza using banned weapons Tony Blair refused to call for Israel to cease fire.
Public opinion across the world might be appalled by Israeli behaviour, and becoming increasingly more hostile towards Israel with each year that passes, but Western governments still fully support Israel. That is precisely why Israel gets away with its acts of brutality and contempt for international law.
Next you'll be telling us that you weren't aware of Western hypocrisy.
.
azku - MemberYes Israel should just disband its army and throw open the borders, everyone will live happily ever after. Even George Galloway would be happy with that.
Can you explain the significance of George Galloway ?
Are suggesting that one of the goals behind Israel's brutality towards the Palestinians is to make George Galloway unhappy ?
Why did you mention George Galloway ?
Lifer - agreed, highly recommended viewing. Amazing that they all agreed to the film and to be so open.
Iirc they all believed in keeping a channel of dialogue open even if the answer back is that the Palestinians dont want to talk at this precise moment, at least you know and there is the channel there open and ready but yhe key was to talk.
Also that on leaving their post, some mentioned being more politically to the left than when they started.
Re IDF if it wasnt compulsory I doubt you'd have a high joining rate at all, perhaps only those wishing to get skills for a career - ie pilot, peogrammer, exposure to technology etc. Added to that you have reserve duty every year which can be lengthy so not very appealing.
Urge anyone with Netflix access to watch Emad Burnat's autobiographical documentary 'Five Broken Cameras' - tbh it made me cry tears of anger, anyone giving the '6 of one...' line will be disambiguated right quickly while viewing
[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ferrari-sheppard/i-traveled-to-palestine_b_4761896.html ]A very powerful account[/url]
This thread is still less depressing than the situation here.
There were two air-raid sirens whilst putting the kids to sleep last night, so they slept in our room. At 6:30 this morning we heard somewhere elses sirens followed by a series of meaty explosions, which is normal when the sirens go off, just that they usually get drowned out by the sirens themselves. My two year old is alarmed by the sirens, and by the explosions, and this morning started to demand answers, who is sending the rockets, and why.
What hope is there for the future when two year olds ask political questions? Not because of something they've seen on the news, but due to their personal experience.
Before I get roasted by the forum, I have asked myself why [i]my[/i] kids should be less of a legitimate target than kids in Gaza. I couldn't come up with any reason.
No doubt this will be "over" in a few days. Hamas will declare victory like last time and feel smug with themselves while the general population bury their dead, and try to piece together what remains of their existence. No doubt our government will be satisfied that we taught them a lesson they won't forget in a hurry, and the whole thing will be repeated for the fourth time a couple of years from now with bigger and better rockets and a more "robust" response.
If it is any comfort to some of you, our house does not have a shelter, and it takes longer than the allotted minute and a half to reach the nearest one, so if we should be unlucky enough to have a direct hit, then I won't be posting on the forum any more.
Before I get roasted by the forum, I have asked myself why my kids should be less of a legitimate target than kids in Gaza.
No-one at all here has said that. So don't try twisting things to suit your own perspective. We're against ALL needless killing of ALL innocent peole. And that includes Israei children, even those of far-right extremist zionists.
I wonder what the Palestinian children ask their parents, when they are forced from their homes, when the zionist buldozers come, when Israeli soldiers beat people up, and point guns at them. What do they say, when white phospohorous is used to bomb their shool? What do they think, when F-16s send smart bombs inot heavily civilian populated areas?
Before I get roasted by the forum, I have asked myself why my kids should be less of a legitimate target than kids in Gaza. I couldn't come up with any reason.
If this is the level of thought process you're at, then you'll never get peace.
Beyond all the conflict, I'm still concerned by the drinking water situation in Gaza.
So to date 3 young lads lost there life at the hands of criminals with no known connection Hamas .
israei forces went from house to house across the boarder beating and killing looking for the criminals involved.
Next a young boy is burnt to death a horrible way to die but even worse when burning your dead is forbidden in his religious doctrine.
Fast forward to today and we see homes being destroyed because they are close to police stations or political leaders via war planes. Rouge terrorism groups fire rockets back NOT Hamas.(as far as anyone can tell)
It's not hard to see who the aggressor is in this recent spat. But the outcome will be less clear. Even more so with what's happening in Iraq and the power and cash isis now have it might not be a ragtag rocket firing boys club Israel currently face.
It won't be the political powers or or religious leaders who suffer if this escalates it will the people stuck in the middle ground. poor people making the best of it on both sides.
To Ian Munro,
No, my thought process has extended beyond that long ago. I have always been opposed to the occupation, in favour of the dignity and human rights of the Palestinians. I am not a spokesperson for the Israeli government, and I didn't vote for any of the parties in the governing coalition. There are many others in Israel who have similar beliefs. Some of us are dismayed by the things that go on here, and are not blind to the crimes and injustices perpetrated by our state. That does not make us anti-patriotic, the opposite is true. The continued occupation only erodes the legitimacy and moral basis for the State of Israel.
As for getting roasted on the forum, is that not what you are doing?
I do fear that there will never be peace, especially in times of such insanity as now. Violence only hardens peoples hearts, and deepens the hatred and mistrust. If ther never is peace here , it will not be because of any connection to my thought process.
Fair Play EZrider, it must be a worrying situation for you at the moment, I hope everything is OK
Can I just ask if you were born in Israel, or did you move there through choice?
EZrider I hope you and yours staff safe.
I came here by choice from Britain in 1997. My wife is native Israeli with Egyptian parents. My kids were born here. When I came I had much more hope. The situation here seems to be steadily sliding to the right. We have both been involved in projects promoting tolerance between Jews and Arabs, and have some Arab friends, both Christian & Moslem. I am often humbled by their reactions to what goes on here, as I am by the reactions of some Jewish Israeli victims of the hatred & violence around us.
I would like to think that more Israelis who are now experiencing disruption to their lives, will be forced to do some real soul searching, but I won't be holding my breath.
Stay safe EZ and family
We do have the "Iron Dome" missile defense system, so we'll hopefully be OK, but thanks.
There's a really thoughtful piece in today's Observer by David Grossman. A transcript of a speech he gave in Tel Aviv last week. Can't find a link to it, but it's well worth a read
Hang in there EZrider!!
If things continue to escalate, will you stay in Israel, or move somewhere more peaceful?
Will your kids one day have to serve in the IDF?
This thread is still less depressing than the situation here.There were two air-raid sirens whilst putting the kids to sleep last night, so they slept in our room. At 6:30 this morning we heard somewhere elses sirens followed by a series of meaty explosions, which is normal when the sirens go off, just that they usually get drowned out by the sirens themselves. My two year old is alarmed by the sirens, and by the explosions, and this morning started to demand answers, who is sending the rockets, and why.
What hope is there for the future when two year olds ask political questions? Not because of something they've seen on the news, but due to their personal experience.
That's an interesting perspective EZrider thanks, but for a more complete picture the perspective from a forum user living in Gaza would be useful. Maybe from someone in Gaza whose fear of losing a children has turned into actual reality ?
Unfortunately however there doesn't appear to be any forum users lining in Gaza. Why do you think that might be ?
The only explanations I can think of is that perhaps there are poor internet connections in Gaza, or Gazians don't spend much of their leisure time mountain biking ?
Or perhaps it's just that not many Gazians speak and write English, what with them being Middle Eastern and not coming from North America, Europe, or Australia.
That does seem to put them at a disadvantage.
We do have the "Iron Dome" missile defense system, so we'll hopefully be OK
Yes it's US funded and appears to be very successful. But for reasons which haven't been explained the US hasn't funded an totally effective missile defense system to protect people living in Gaza from missile attacks.
It would appear that killing people living in Gaza with missiles is OK as far as the US is concerned.
I'm staying put for the time being, although moving to Britain may be an option in the future if things don't improve.
On the subject of Arabs riding bikes, you never used to see any, but more recently, there seem to be a few.
It's nice to have an option.
If you do decide to stay put:
Will your kids one day have to serve in the IDF?
My kids will need to serve in the IDF if we stay.
So they could in turn become part of the problem, rather than the solution?
There are avenues for objecting. It's pretty difficult and unless the father got a job that could cover the visa requirements for two Israeli children to return to the UK, then they wouldn't be able to.
Are Hamas ****ing idiots? Israel is responding full on (attacked so retaliate yet still Hamas are launching rockets today).
They want a full ground invasion then.
Why?
How can you be sure it's Hamas?
Its someone in Gaza. Why are they continuing to fire rockets?
4 Israeli soldiers injured attacking a launch site today.
