i make a point of not buying any isreali produce. the fact that isreal recieved over 3bn$ from the US in military aid last year means that the 2€ i didn't spend on paprikas today isn't going to make much of an impact on the mentality.
And the Versailles Treaty resulted in territorial losses for Germany, presumably therefore you think that lebensraum was a legitimate goal for Nazi Germany, as long as they achieved it through war of course. ffs.
Presumably therefore you think that regaining territorial losses through war is a legitimate goal for Palestinians then?
So the Palestinians chose not to support a plan which involved them handing over their lands to foreigners claiming to be Jews, while on the other hand Zionists approved of a plan which involved Palestinians handing over their lands to them. Well there's a surprise, who would have thought it, eh
You've never actually read the UN plan, land was never going to be handed over. The states were going to be administered by different religious groups and minorities be they Jewish or Muslim, in either state, would be respected.
But noooooo, that would be way way to adult of people.....one side had to get all shooty shooty gun gun because they couldn't handle someone with a different sky god governing them.....it's fine if Ottoman's or whoever run things....but ****....Jews?
Presumably therefore you think that regaining territorial losses through war is a legitimate goal for Palestinians then?
You think that taking back what is yours is the same as taking what isn't yours ? At this rate of incredulity I think I'm going to start running out of ffs. ffs
.
EDIT for your edit : [i]"You've never actually read the UN plan, land was never going to be handed over."[/i]
From the very page which you copied and pasted :
[i].... it gave the majority of the land (56%) to the Jews, who at that stage legally owned only 7% of it and remained a minority of the population. There were also disproportionate allocations under the plan and the area under Jewish control contained 45% of the Palestinian population.[/i]
I don't know, taking back Prussia isn't so different. Depends if you think Germany was right to do so. I don't.
*cough*
*cough*This data does not reflect the actual land ownership by Jews, local Arabs, Ottomans and other land owners.
Reread it.
The Plan would have had the following demographics (data based on 1945). This data does not reflect the actual land ownership by Jews, local Arabs, Ottomans and other land owners.
That's the whole point - the demographics of "The Plan" would not have reflected the actual land ownership. The Plan would have handed over land to Jews.
Why have you got a cough ? Have a drink of water and re-read your Wikipedia page.
Totally irrelevant. Like most of this thread.
So, about that original question, then...
The U.N? Geneva convention?
Anyone?
The question has been answered. Israel can ignore the UN and the Geneva Convention because they are special, and mates with the United States.
To be fair I'm surprised that you even need to ask.
Isn't that how wars work?
Under international law it is illegal to land grab via military might for reasons that even a zionist apologist must surely understand. You cannot invade countries and then claim them as your because you are militarily stronger.
Again your point is basically might is right
FWIW you would therefore be happy with your country being completely wiped out by military force as well as that is "how wars work" and you would have no objection to this happening
as ernie says we are indeed running out of FFS and face palms here.
Were concentration camps ,genocide and final solutions also how wars work or was it morally indefensible utterly abhorrent and wrong?
PS tom aelf pwning is fun to watch.
Well, Israel are not that special surely? Turkey has continued to breach numerous UN resolutions on Cyprus
Its interesting that the greek-cypriots who were forced out of their homelands have not resorted to a long campaign of firing missiles, blowing people up, kidnapping, murder and terrorism (though to be fair, had they not been doing this to their fellow islanders in the first place, Turkey might never have invaded...)
Junkyard - lazarus
PS tom aelf pwning is fun to watch.
I think you've forgotten how important he is. It's a tragedy 🙁
ninfan - Member
Well, Israel are not that special surely? Turkey has continued to breach numerous UN resolutions on Cyprus
Whatabout whatabout whatabout
Yes, whatabout - because it disproves the suggestion that Israel is somehow being given 'special' treatment by not enforcing UN resolutions against it.
Now, what do you think would happen if Greek Cypriots started firing rockets from one half of Nicosia?
Israel fired 60 rockets into gaza overnight, Hamas fired 4 into Israel - proportionate response with a Zionist sneer
While you idiots are discussing ancient history, the Israelis are killimg civilians - men, women and children. Whatever the imagined origins in ancient books or ****ed up colonialism, this is a vile crime.
is it a vile crime when Israeli civilians, like the three teenage boys last month, get kidnapped and murdered too?
Obviously. Are you implying that one justifies the other?
Right, so why single out Israel for criticism in your earlier post?
Because the Israeli murdering is an ongoing situation on an incomparably bigger scale undertaken by a government and tacitly supported by superpowers. Did I miss something?
You see, to me this is the problem - its a [i]cycle[/i] of violence - the simplification of painting one side as evil, and responsible for everything that is happening helps nobody.
Incomparably bigger scale? over 1000 rockets launched at Israel last week.
Both sides need to stop, Tit for Tat needs to stop, and people need to stop making excuses for Hamas continuing their violence too!
Nobody is painting one side as evil. People are painting one side as responsible for the vast majority of innocent lives lost. That is the simple fact. It needs to stop, and your diversion and whataboutery don't change that.
the simplification of painting one side as evil, and responsible for everything that is happening helps nobody
I know those bloody zionists
Did you see it when I challenged them to say something negative about Israel and they never even responded.
See it when they blamed Hams for Israel killing civilians [ even claimed it showed Israel cared more about civilians 😯 ]
Scribbles at the scribbler
That's the whole point - the demographics of "The Plan" would not have reflected the actual land ownership. The Plan would have handed over land to Jews.
There's a difference between control of a state and land ownership within that state. If you can prove to me that the plan included taking property and houses of Arabs and giving them to Jews, then I'll accede.
My question to everyone else would be, if Israel is so bad, why are the civilian to combatant death ratios higher for UK operations in Afghanistan than Israels operations in Gaza and the West Bank. It would appear to me, that we are worse when it comes to disproportionate responses. The very fact that the Israeli's have managed to best our ratio in heavily built up environments would indicate that they are doing a far better job than us at identifying and targeting militants.
DrJ - MemberWhile you idiots are discussing ancient history, the Israelis are killimg civilians - men, women and children.
Well I've signed a petition urging David Cameron to tell Israel that it must end its military assault and to impose sanctions on Israel until it upholds international law. What else would you like me to do ?
Pick up the phone and have a word with Netanyahu ? ........I seem to be right out of Qassam rockets.
Besides, Tel Aviv is beyond their range from Croydon.
@ernie - TBH my remark was not aimed at you but at people like Tom who respond to murderous assaults on an unarmed populace with diversion and obfuscation. Shameful.
My question to everyone else would be, if Israel is so bad, why are the civilian to combatant death ratios higher for UK operations in Afghanistan than Israels operations in Gaza and the West Bank.
The obvious answer, assuming, for the sake of argument, that you could document that statement, would be to point out that the two environments are entirely different, and that, in any case, one does not excuse the other. More whataboutery from the Israeli apologists.
Yeah ones a sparsely populated shit heap and the other is a densely populated one, implying we are far worse than the Israelis.
My point being, that I don't believe Israel are beyond blame....but people like Gonzy and Ernie come across as being the types who see Israel as pure evil and want them to be pushed back into the sea. Beyond not helping the situation at all, I find this attitude rather hypocritical, pot meet kettle etc.
I've just had a quote tweeted to me about the value of our total arms sales to Israel from a Journalist friend who was at the #Scotlandwithgaza protest in Edinburgh earlier today, she said we have exported £7.9 Billion in arms sales to Israel. I thought that was an absurd amount so i checked it out and it appears to be true 😯 .
So i guess we are complicit in the destruction of Palestine.
With reference to trotting out the usual Zionist lie that Israel's murderous assault on Gaza and the killing of men, women, and children, is in response to Hamas rockets, as exemplified here :
samj - MemberGaza is being bombed because Hamas is firing rockets into Israel. If they wanted to stop the bombing they could stop firing rockets. The blame for the Gaza civilian plight lies squarely with the Hamas leadership.
nim - MemberRockets were being fired from Gaza long before the boys were kidnapped. It just doesn't make the UK press.
I've just stumbled on this :
[url= http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/ ]Hamas fires rockets for first time since 2012, Israeli officials say[/url]
[i]The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.
While Israel has maintained it holds Hamas responsible for all rocket attacks, officials have said that smaller groups, such as Islamic Jihad, are usually behind the rocket attacks, while Hamas squads generally attempt to thwart the rocket fire.
Hamas hasn’t fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012, and has yet to take responsibility for this latest barrage.
The group fired hundred of rockets at Israel over eight days during Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012, as Israel carried out punishing strikes on the Palestinian enclave.[/i]
So no Hamas rocket attacks for 2 years then, not since Israel last attacked Gaza, and not until Israel once again attacked Gaza with some of the most advanced weapons available in the world.
According to the Israeli press of course, according to what nim reads [i]"Rockets were being fired from Gaza long before the boys were kidnapped. It just doesn't make the UK press"[/i].
Expect the same old lies to be trotted out next time Israel wants to bomb the **** out of Gaza and kill a few more 100 Palestinians.
And the fact that it was in the West Bank which isn't controlled by Hamas, not Gaza, where the 3 boys were kidnapped, shouldn't be forgotten.
Israel uses any excuse - the truth is of no consequence to them. And they particularly hate Hamas because Hamas had the temerity to win EU sponsored elections, which wasn't something that they were supposed to do.
people like Gonzy and Ernie come across as being the types who see Israel as pure evil
"Evil" isn't a terminology which I tend to use, I see Israel as a pariah state, of course I do, why wouldn't I?
It refuses to comply with international law or convention and its government orders the killing of civilians with complete disregard, in fact contempt, for United Nations/global public opinion. It should be treated as a pariah state.
BTW do you believe in the struggle between "good and evil" Tom ?
I resent the way that apologists for Israel talk about a 'civil war' or 'exchange of fire' or 'both sides' etc implying some sort of balance when in fact we're looking at a massive imbalance of power and a racist colonialist state engaging in collective punishment. I have talked to past members of the Israeli army about atrocities and they shrug their shoulders with comments like 'sh*t happens' and 'it's all part of the day'.
It saddens me that judaism has produced some great socialists like Marx, Trotsky, Luxemburg, Ygael Gluckstein, Ruth First whereas the ideology of zionism has converted so many to being in many respects worse than Afrikaaners under apartheid.
I think it's important to understand that zionists don't speak for all Jews,and in fact are in a minority. I think it's dangerous to think of zionism as a 'Jewish' issue, as millins of Jews worldwide are vehemently opposed to zionim. And as a previous poster pointed out,many Haredi are opposied to the ideology of zionism. A neighbour of ours is Isreali, and a former member of the IDF. He and his wife (a Yemeni Jew) moved from Israel to get away from the situation there, and because of the treatment of Yemeni, Ethiopian, Moroccanand other Arab Jews, by racists of European origin.
She describes many instances of humiliating and sometimes horrifying discrimination against Moroccan, Yemeni, Tunisian and other Jews as they found their lives subsumed beneath the prevailing Ashkenazi culture. Some North African Jews were allowed in only after being sprayed with disinfectant. The picture is one of exploitation and mistrust, based largely on the Arab Jews’ resemblance – even linguistically – to “the enemy” and leaving them still at the bottom of the heap today.
I don't see this as a 'Jewish' issue at al; it's all about evil men bent on power and wealth, using religion as a smokescreen to justify their actions, and exempt themselves from any criticism.
Yeah ones a sparsely populated shit heap and the other is a densely populated one, implying we are far worse than the Israelis.
Well, the situation is obviously more complicated than that, but the point is moot since a) I don't accept your statistics, and b) 2 wrongs don't make a right
"The bomb came straight through the roof," said Mohammad Bahri, a 22-year-old who lives next door. "About 4.30am two drones fired warning shots and then the jet came in and bombed."The residents were barely mobile, said neighbours, spending their time in bed or in wheelchairs, and could not escape the building.
Just so we don't lose sight of what's under discussion.
Skip to the end.
I'll be at a Palestinian Solidarity rally tomorrow, which is nothing new but it's doing something.
Better than inaction & opinion.
So the latest 'clinically targeted' Israeli attacks kill, amongst countless others, two disabled women in a care home? The Zionist apologists must be so proud of their continued inhumanity, and mouth the usual pathetic platitudes to try and justify this ludicrous collective punishment. How were the disabled residents of a care home threatening the security of Israel then?
And Dave has been coming out with his usual mealy-mouthed, unquestioning support of Israel's 'right to defend itself' , on the same day the UN says the Israeli's are guilty of war crimes. And everyone's just meant to accept their continued flouting of international law with impunity, and the pathetic toadying support of spineless western governments
Please, banners, don't bring CallmeDave into this. He makes me puke at the best of times. Seeing his slack-jawed foolish face emitting pathetic utterances on the subject of Palestine is way beyond what my stomach can bear.
Can't be upsetting party donors now, can we? And that goes for the other useless spineless mob too! I think we'd be in for a long wait if we're expecting the Labour Party to do anything other than mouth the same 'right to defend itself' platitudes.
Given that, please Wallace, spare us your 'my family came here escaping persecution' bollocks. Doesn't really fit well with endorsing war crimes, does it?!
Question asked earlier about rockets from Gaza and when they began:
"Since the beginning of this year, Gaza terrorists have fired more than 450 rockets on Israel, with about half of them coming since mid-June, when two Hamas terrorists kidnapped and brutally murdered three Israeli teenagers."
Source Telegraph 8 May. You can check Ynet news, Idf spokesperson and more if you're interested.
Also someone asking for news sources that weren't UK ones.
Ha'aretz, Ynet news have English versions.
Barak Ravid on twitter is ok, as is author of above piece & Eytan Buchman amongst others.
More on twitter:
Khaled Abu Toameh
Dan Williams - Reuters
Mudar Zahran - Jordanian Palestinian
Nim; can I ask why you appear to be ignoring the terrible attrocities comitted by the IDF, and instead only focussing on the (largely ineffectual) rocket strikes Israle claim are perpetrated by Hamas members (no proof that they actually are; there are many militant groups opposing Israel's military actions)?
Do you genuinly beleive Israel is doing nothng more than 'defending itself'? Or are you wiling to admit that Israel is by far the most aggressive and disproportionate in it's actions? A view that most people on earth share.
Nim - quoting the daily telegraph? Seriously? The paper that still continues the agenda of its avowed Zionist former owner Conrad Black. Hardly impartial, is it?
Do you ever listen to fighting talk on a Saturday morning on five live? They have a bit called 'defending the indefensible'
Though it's usually funny.... 🙄
Israel warned Hamas to cease and gave them 48 hours to cease firing but the rockets kept coming.
Yes Israel has the better tech, military etc and will always look as the aggressor due to the number of deaths and casualties but Hamas know exactly what they are doing firing from where casualties will be inflicted as well as media coverage.
However should Israel do nothing when being hit by hundreds of rockets?
Hamas knows they are now facing a ground invasion and if this happens things will get much worse.
July 12, 2014 – Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird today issued the following statement:
“Canada rejects UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay’s uncalled-for criticism of Israel’s response to rocket attacks from Gaza. Focusing her comments on Israel is neither helpful nor reflective of the reality of this crisis.“There must be no moral equivalence between Hamas, a listed terrorist organization, and its blatant disregard for human life, and the liberal democratic State of Israel’s duty and obligation to defend its people from cowardly and indiscriminate attacks.
“Canada mourns the death and suffering of innocent civilians in Gaza. Responsibility rests solely with Hamas and its allies, who launched and continue to feed this crisis.
“The Israel Defense Forces have taken extraordinary steps to reduce civilian casualties in very difficult and trying conditions. Israel should be commended—not criticized—for these efforts in the face of an enemy clearly determined to put civilians, from both sides, in mortal danger to suit its own purposes.
“Canada calls on Hamas and other militant groups to end the rocket attacks on Israel and bring an end to the ongoing violence that threatens the lives of innocent Israelis and Palestinians. The path chosen by Hamas and its allies does not lead to peace.”
Israel warned Hamas to cease
And what if Hamas, The UN or indeed anyone else warns Israel to cease? What hapens then?
Yes Israel has the better tech, military etc and will always look as the aggressor due to the number of deaths and casualties
No; due to actually being the agressors. I'm staggered that you continue to act as an aplogist for the continued agression by the Israeli military. You have been show, tima and again on this thread alone, just how barbaric Israel's actins are, yet you continue to beat the dum of 'self-defence'.
Mark Regev: "Hamas bears primary responsibility for civilian casualties in Gaza"
So, it's absolutely fine to kill innocent people then? What if those firing rockets at Israle take the same stance? That's also fine, no? That's also 'self defence', no?
However should Israel do nothing when being hit by hundreds of rockets?
So Paelstinians shoud do nothing when hundreds of innocent people are being killed?
July 12, 2014 – Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird today issued the following statement:
