[Closed] homophobia alive and well on the streets

i think the homophobia is a bit of a red herring,
i reckon the assholes that think its ok to spit on another human being as she walks along the road probably display hatred for people of other races, ages, genders, skin colours, religion etc.
they just hate everyone, ironically even themselves.
theres no reasoning with that type of people, as they only understand violence and intolerance.
glad to hear the OP went to the police, and hope that she and her partner take some comfort from the fact that not everyone is so intolerant.

regards, martin.

A kiss, did you kiss in front of these guys, emsz? Just trying to understand the situation.

Really, Crankboy? The place must have changes a hell of a lot since I was there. I seem to remember gay politicians (or even a hint they might be gay) were considered a security risk, gays in the workplace got nowhere, guys couldn't get a decent role in the university drama society unless they were gay... .

Maybe things have changed - certainly there do seem to be a lot more people out of the closet, and plenty of high profile people who are - including some politicians, so presumably it's not seen as an inherent security risk any more (though claiming expenses for paying your boyfriend rent is still frowned upon). As Stoner says, unfortunately there will always be some neanderthals - and I'm not at all surprised to find some in Oxford (it's not all dreaming spires). Don't let it get you down - most of us are far more enlightened. I mean you have to be a bit lacking upstairs to find two women holding hands at all threatening in any way. I'm just wondering how I've missed the "tasty bird" pics ernie mentions 😉

NO Edukator, we didn't I'm just saying it shit having to think twice about doing that all the time

Inspector Morse would soon sort it out.

I'm just wondering how I've missed the "tasty bird" pics ernie mentions

Emsz has posted a couple of pics on her profile. I can see why some might be jealous 🙂

Is the right to hold hands down Cowly road worth fighting for, Mrs Toast? Hardly in the Rosa Parks or MLK league is it. MLK and RP were fighting against instututionalised racism. emsz is fighting a few ignorant blokes flaunting the law. IMO they aren't worth her time or effort, she'd be best to ignore them and behave in a way that means they'll ignore her.

So because they might occasionally come across some single cell organisms, they should avoid ever holding hands in public? Or would you like to provide a rundown of the places it's OK and those it's not? Alternatively in our world, their behaviour is always acceptable, that of the thugs always not.

i think the homophobia is a bit of a red herring,
i reckon the assholes that think its ok to spit on another human being as she walks along the road probably display hatred for people of other races, ages, genders, skin colours, religion etc.
they just hate everyone, ironically even themselves.

This.

I think lots of things I have to do I think are shit. I hate putting my T-shirt back on when I get back to the town centre when I'm out running and it's 35°C+. I don't like givng way to cars when I have right of way. I feel like driving the point of my ski stick into the calf of the guy that's jumped the lift queue. But I put my T-shirt on, give way to the road hogs and try to feel sorry for the skier that is still in a 9 to 5, dog-eat-dog frame of mind on holiday

Edukator may have a point here, that's being badly laboured, but it is important.
I may be wrong in my understanding of his point, but there are situations when the avoidance of conflict, temporarily, overides principles. This is not a clash of principles, those scum had no principles to clash with.
When there is a situation that could easily escalate into violence, the most important thing is to get safe first. This situation, as emsz described it, could have turned very nasty.

Two girls were outnumbered by a group of thugs, who went out of their way to cross a road, approach them, abuse them and assault them. Emsz did the right thing and got away.
I totally agree with

YES - it IS worth fighting for the right to hold hands with whoever we want.

edukator. The name is ironic. Learn to think mr edukator.

Edukator - your're clearly considerate, have good manners and are sensitive to cultural differences. However, you should'nt have to appease criminals - I suspect that you don't. Neither should emsz or anyone else who abides by the law.

Badly labouring a point is my speciality.

[i]He that fights and runs away, may turn and fight another day; but he that is in battle slain, will never rise to fight again.[/i]

So I'll run away now. Night all.

I hate putting my T-shirt back on when I get back to the town centre when I'm out running and it's 35°C+. I don't like givng way to cars when I have right of way. I feel like driving the point of my ski stick into the calf of the guy that's jumped the lift queue. But I put my T-shirt on, give way to the road hogs and try to feel sorry for the skier that is still in a 9 to 5, dog-eat-dog frame of mind on holiday

But they're all reacting to an incident when it occurs. Do you wear a T-shirt when running in the countryside, never go cycling on the roads and avoid ski lifts because somebody might take offence/not give you right of way/jump the queue? That's the equivalent of telling emsz not to hold hands with Sara in public. When the incident occurred they reacted in the correct way and got out of dodge (doubtless the yobs were hoping for a reaction).

Is the right to hold hands down Cowly road worth fighting for, Mrs Toast? Hardly in the Rosa Parks or MLK league is it. MLK and RP were fighting against instututionalised racism. emsz is fighting a few ignorant blokes flaunting the law. IMO they aren't worth her time or effort, she'd be best to ignore them and behave in a way that means they'll ignore her.

I don't think you can fight institutionalised discrimination without tackling it at the ground level. We (and the US) have laws against racism, but that hasn't stopped racism - just look at the recent shenanigans in premiership football, or the scaremongering about Barack Obama because he had a foreign sounding middle name. We have laws against homophobic discrimination, but we still can't call gay marriages 'marriages'. Despite that, two people in a relationship should be able to walk down the road holding hands. That's not going on a crusade or making a stand, that's acting like a couple. Anyone who thinks that's risky behaviour that should be amended rather than being reported to the police....

Edukator - your're clearly considerate, have good manners and are sensitive to cultural differences.

I reckon Edukator's very first post might suggest otherwise.

Edukator - Member

Are you sure it was gob?

Edit to add smiley

Posted 1 hour ago

Care to contribute to the debate Yunki or are you only here to insult me as usual?

By your own logic, if you don't want to be insulted, you only have to keep your opinions to yourself. Is it really worth fighting for?

but that fight is for later, once safe,

Bollocks. She was holding hands with her partner, not walking through Bradford with a placard reading "****s go home." If that's what constitutes a "fight" these days, gods help us.

Edukator I'm actually with you here too.
I am surprised this took place in Oxford which you would expect being a university town would be very liberal in their attitudes.
Nobody in this thread including Edukator condones the act that took place here. Its completely illegal, indecent, intolerant and immoral.
By the sounds of things nobody in this thread would commit the act that has taken place.
However if you choose to fight a crusade against the majority then you've got to be prepared for some kind of resistance.
There are lots of behaviours in society that are completely legal but if performed in the wrong context will certainly incite an innappropriate reaction.
I hope the law enforcements will find and punish the perpetuators.

For the record many of my very close friends are gay.

Bollocks. She was holding hands with her partner, not walking through Bradford with a placard reading "****s go home." If that's what constitutes a "fight" these days, gods help us.

Brilliant 8)

It is a shame that we can't actually debate things around here without it turning into abuse.

Very sad to hear that's happened to you both, hate crimes will never go away though, you did the right thing phoning the police, no matter what is debated on here the best we can do is try to educate younger the generations the best we can.

Care to contribute to the debate Yunki or are you only here to insult me as usual?

There's not much of a debate, Edukator, just you being the contrarian as usual.

I get the point about trying to avoid issues in the first place, but in 21st century Britain, acceptance of homosexuality [i]is[/i] the norm. Given the fact that the police clearly took a keen interest once alerted, I'd suggest that they side with Emsz on this i.e. she and her partner shouldn't have to change their behaviour.

As others have suggested, the fact that you seem to attract abuse whilst riding a bike implies that rather than carrying out 'a crusade' against it, you should diffuse the situation by not riding your bike. Apparently this will help the issue 🙄

I'm disappointed to hear this. Contrary to some hignorants on this thread, Oxford is mainly a tolerant and progressive city. It is not a shithole. There are some less than pleasant parts and the Cowley road leads to a couple of them. I'm guessing the prats that you encountered were on their way back to Rose Hill or the Leys. And yes, if you haven't reported it yet you should.

I'm very proud of Oxford, please don't let the actions of a couple of arsehats colour your opinion of the whole city. They were probably from Swindon anyway 😉

If you ride a bike for 10 000km a year you'll come across a few nutty motorists, Zokes. Being "bikewise" and living somewhere there are less Clarkson clones menas I suffer less. Far from being on a campaign this "bikewise" includes no longer getting wound up when they are aggressive or resfuse priority. I gave up chasing motorists the day one ran a red light to get get away and very nearly caused a pile up. It's a process of adapting to your environment.

I'm encouraging emsz to be [b]streetwise[/b]. I lived in Sitges and worked on the Ramblas in Barcelona for a year. On the sound advice of colleages We wore no signs of wealth and Madame used a tatty rucksac or supermarket bag. We avoided the backstreets after 8:00 and were never robbed. Madame's colleage went to Barcelona for a week. She's one half of a franco-american couple. They were robbed twice in three days (on the second occasion the husband did get his wallet back) and cut short their holiday. I'll leave you to guess how they dressed, where they went and where they were carrying their valuables.

However if you choose to fight a crusade against the majority then you've got to be prepared for some kind of resistance.

So holding hands is a crusade? Really?

There are lots of behaviours in society that are completely legal but if performed in the wrong context will certainly incite an innappropriate reaction.

Wrong context? Did you read her post?

As someone pointed out, theres inappropriate and inappropriate. I don't know a single person who is homophobic so my belief is the majority of people at the very least don't care what other people do. Of course, I may just choose not to associate with homophobes or those who either condone their behaviour or think that it's somehow justified as a social norm we should respect or honour.

emsz - sorry you went through that, hopefully you can see those blokes are not representative of the majority of the people in your country.

I'm encouraging emsz to be streetwise. I lived in Sitges and worked on the Ramblas in Barcelona for a year. On the sound advice of colleages We wore no signs of wealth and Madame used a tatty rucksac or supermarket bag. We avoided the backstreets after 8:00 and were never robbed. Madame's colleage went to Barcelona for a week. She's one half of a franco-american couple. They were robbed twice in three days (on the second occasion the husband did get his wallet back) and cut short their holiday. I'll leave you to guess how they dressed, where they went and where they were carrying their valuables.

So to cut a long story short, petty theft and mugging is 'the accepted norm' in parts of Barcelona then, or at least the police are unable / unwilling to address this? Whereas in Oxford, being allowed to hold your partner's hand, no matter what sex you / they are is the norm, and as such, there shouldn't be an issue. When there is, it's unacceptable and gets reported.

Perhaps we could encourage you to be [b]forumwise[/b]?

I said "robbed" not "mugged". The police can't be everywhere and there's crime in every city in every country in the world. Some types of behaviour will encourage crime against you. Avoid them.

Edit to add: Would imforming you of the ethno type to be wary of in Barcelona be racist of me? It's the same as in most [url= http://www.parismatch.com/Actu-Match/Societe/Actu/Alerte-aux-pickpockets-336931/ ]French cities[/url]

Sorry to hear of this event Emsz, glad you both reported it and i hope you are both calmer this morning.

A few months ago my partner and i saw two young lads aged around 18 walking down the road past my house holding hands and chatting away happily. No grief and relaxed, and this is in Rochdale - not a forward looking town so there is hope.

Don't listen to the so-called 'edukator' you did nothing wrong in either the eyes of the law or modern British society.

I have a right not to be mugged in leafy middle class West Didsbury in Manchester, when wearing headphones late at night on seemingly empty streets. Incidently, I clobbered the lot of the scrotes who tried to nick my phone. Do I get a prize for being a hard man in real life, or do you just get one for being 'right on' on the Internet? Rosa Parks has nowt on me, the amateur. Edukator speaks sense and some of you lot need to get in the real world. You're good bullies though, I'll admit that.

My pseudo comes from the Hans Weingartner film [i]Die Fetten Jahre sind Vrobei[/i], released outside Germany as [i]the Edukators[/i]. The edukators being anti-capitalist campaigners. As an ex-capitalist and ex-teacher it seemed apt.

You're good bullies though, I'll admit that.

Well that doesn't appear to be the case .........Edukator won't shut up.

I'm going to try harder so that he modifies his behaviour to the point where it suits me and I'm satisfied with it.

Edukator speaks no sense at all. Its the classic blame the victim stance he espouses and it stinks.

Do I get a prize for being a hard man in real life

No, your prize is for being lucky. None of them wanted it badly enough to stab or otherwise injure you.

It's horrible that we still have vestiges of intolerance in this country. It sickens me to hear about your experiences Emsz.

Just the other day I got into a confrontation with a group who were behaving in a similar way to a guy in the street who was 'spreading the word of God' (his words not mine). I guess he was just expressing himself in his own way, expressing how he felt, but a group of teenagers thought that this was unacceptable and started heckling him and poking fun. It started to get a bit nasty so I ended up stepping in (not sure how wise that was, it's years since I considered myself to be more than capable of handling a group, let alone one on one!)

Fortunately my size and confidence meant that they backed down. The proselytizer was a bit shaken up though!

Regardless of what the 2 ladies were up to a bunch of idiots spat at someone in the street.
How anyone can come on here and defend the idiots beggars belief.

Edukator speaks no sense at all. Its the classic blame the victim stance he espouses and it stinks.

defend the idiots

you must be reading a different thread to me zippykona...

Who has defended the idiots zippykona? I certainly haven't and despite reading all the posts so far haven't noticed anyone else defending the idiots.

The question here is what emsz can do to avoid such unpleasantness in the future. Some seem to think going to the police is the best course. I'm suggesting adapting to the world one lives in is a better strategy than relying on a police force that can't be everywhere all the time ([url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-12960343 ]and may be just as homophobic as the idiots)[/url].

I don't think Edukator was defending their actions.

It's a sad day when two people of the same sex in a relationship feel they should hide that fact when walking through any street in this country though.

No edukator - you are suggesting hiding away.

If they were being outrageous you might have a point but they were merely holding hands.

Your attitude stinks. You are blaming hem for the prejudice they encountered.

Is this where I should post "some of my best friends are gay", Poly? Futile, however I will remind people of the slating I got on here when I used the positive example of a gay paedophile friend that successfully reintegrated the local community after a jail term in a debate on "punish, or educate and reintegrate". People seemed shocked that I still considered the guy a friend after the events.

One person doesn't make the male species or a Cities inhabitants remember.

If I heard or saw the event I would have challenged him. As would many on STW.

I'm suggesting adapting to the world one lives in is a better strategy than relying on a police force that can't be everywhere all the time

I can see your argument Ed, but the huge problem with this approach is that society won't ever change as a result.

More pertinently, you run the significant risk of making the situation worse by giving justification to the underlying prejudice that stimulates it in the first place; by you being the one to change/adapt you're effectively sanctioning the prejudice, giving credence to it.

As for you, TJ. Like Yunki, you can find nothing better than insult and putting words in my mouth.

I have never said .[i] "You are blaming hem for the prejudice they encountered."[/i] The prejudice doesn't come from emsz, it comes from the society she lives in. It's not her fault, it's not my fault, it's there and I'm proposing one strategy to deal with it that she may or may not take on board.

LOL at those of you misinterpreting edukator's posts and saying he's blaming the OP....presumably he's upset you in the past?

Typical lame forum behaviour. Try reading his posts instead of joining the lynch mob.

I stopped at page two after reading most of edukator comment.
Now I am or once glad he's british, one less vote for Marine in May. However I am quite scared as well. As his forum name implies he's somehow in contact with people and probably young ones to teach them. And to think he's teaching them some of his narrow-minded ideas is frankly disturbing.

And as for

Drive on French plates in England if you really want to suffer aggressive driving

Oh I did read your posts and its the classic "blame the victim" I am not putting words in your mouth - Its what you said. According to you its up to the victims to modify their behaviour

Not only that you make an extremely offensive "Joke" as well.

Guys, please don't turn this into a massive argument. I don't want that. TJ, yes its shit that sometimes people go out of their way to intimidate, but I know what Edukator is trying to say, it's a fact of life that we have to be careful sometimes, we just forgot for a minute

I give up.

I shouldn't have even tried really, shouldhuv kn0wn better... 🙁

and here we go again, another multi page thread that descends into hair pulling and name calling......i'm off to mumsnet

Guys, please don't turn this into a massive argument.

What else did you expect?

Cynic al - You should be ashamed of yourself for praising Edukators offensive "Joke"

To say that emsz should have to modify her behaviour to avoid the bigots is blaming her for the bigots actions.

If you fail to understand that then you are a part of the problem not a part of the solution. Her behaviour was not outwith the bounds of decency and should not be condemned

"Guys, please don't turn this into a massive argument. I don't want that."

This should end the thread it has for me.

Cynic al - You should be ashamed of yourself for praising Edukators offensive "Joke"

Steady TeeJ. That action was more about the reaction it would provoke rather than expressing a preference for inappropriately timed funnies. Thing is, it didn't provoke much which was probably slightly disappointing.

TJ has spoken people.
Now please leave the thread in an orderly fashion. Women and children first. Leave your baggage behind. No running and please close all the doors as you go.

Now please leave the thread in an orderly fashion. Women and children first. Leave your baggage behind. No running and please close all the doors as you go.

Bollocks to that.

PANIC!!!!!

Guys, please don't turn this into a massive argument.

You must be new here?

If you have any questions then please ask.

Oh and a little tip as a newcomer, when TJ wades into your thread, just go make a cup of tea and have a biscuit, may I recommend choc hobnobs, and go put your feet up with a good book. As your thread is now dead. It may seem alive, but it's been fatally wounded and doomed to repeat itself ad infinitum.

...other than that, please enjoy your stay and feel free to ask what tyres for social wrongs.

Edit to add: Would imforming you of the ethno type to be wary of in Barcelona be racist of me? It's the same as in most French cities

And now you try to get away by being xenophobic, brilliant. Saddly for you I am french and therefore I could read the whole article. So first, posting an article from and conservative right-wing news-paper on a thread centred of tolerance isn't your brightest move. Second, if you do a bit of research you'll find most of the figured quote on this article are wrong, specially the 'rom' bits.

Oh and a little tip as a newcomer, when TJ wades into your thread, just go make a cup of tea and have a biscuit, may I recommend choc hobnobs, and go put your feet up with a good book. As your thread is now dead. It may seem alive, but it's been fatally wounded.

Coffee/keyboard interface! 😆

But TJ is ALWAYS right......

Emsz... i'm really sorry to hear about your experience, and i imagine it must have been pretty traumatic! yes lots of people have said you should've gone to the police straight away, but when you've just been abused and spat on its not the first thing on your mind, getting to what feels like a safe place with your loved one is.

Cowley Road really isn't the best place in Oxford to find yourself if you want to be in the company of enlightened modern individuals... trust me when i say there are several homes for the long term mentally ill, there are homes for paedophiles and forensic (think broadmoor) patients living in the community along that road and in that area. I hope for the sake of the events reflection on modern society it was an unwell person who did this to you and Sara 🙁

I hope you are both doing ok x

If youre brought up in a cosy little Cotswold town I can understand the liberal rose-tinted views of how life [i]should[/i] be, but for right or wrong, a huge part of the UK population (maybe the majority) live in a rough area, where homophobia, religous hatred and racism are as acceptable as fish and chips. You may not underatnd this or agree with it, but it is a fact of life.

sorry if I offended you 'edukator' but I I find your zenophobia ridiculous..

Bloody awful thing to happen but I'm really not sure which Cowley Road some people on here are talking about.

Only just saw this.

Disgraceful that (thankfully a minority of) people are like this, but then there are still people who think that non-white people are somehow inferior, that homosexuality is an illness, and that Hitler was basically right about those horrid Jews. There will always be bigotry, but hopefully it gets further and further away from acceptability.

Sorry you had to put up with this, and yes, I'd certainly go to the police, despite the fact there's very little they'll be able to do. It's important that they have data to be able to deal with this in the future.

The good news....my 11 year old son asked me at the weekend why there was such a big fuss about being gay. He just didn't get why/how there could possibly be a problem. This wasn't relating to him (he's a bit young to know whether he prefers girls, boys or XBox - probably the latter), but he was reading in the papers about the situation in Zimbabwe. If we have new generations of people who not only don't have a problem with gay relationships but honestly can't see why anyone would, there's a bit more hope.

It takes generations though......not good for people now.

sorry if I offended you 'edukator' but I I find your zenophobia ridiculous..

On the flipside we could all trip over ourselves to excessively hand-wring. Whats worse?

I voted for Bayrou first round and Sarkozy second round last time, Juan. This time it'll no doubt be Bayrou first round and the least dangerous in the second round.

I linked an article in Match, xenophobic or simply realistic about the origin of pick pockets in France? Is your attitude to me xenophobic? Being happy to think I'm not French when I am would suggest so.

trust me when i say there are several homes for the long term mentally ill...

Careful, it sounds like you're being mentalist. Those people are what makes Cowley Road great... the guy that used to walk around in full legionare get up with a massive staff... the black rab-c-nesbit (he may not be Scottish but he wears a string vest and is incoherant)... the crazy camp guy that used to come and talk to me whilst I was getting my hair cut...

All takes me back to the early 90's and watching tramps fighting over bottles of white lightening and terps whilst we skated on the ramps.

Happy days.

Oh and a little tip as a newcomer, when TJ wades into your thread, just go make a cup of tea and have a biscuit, may I recommend choc hobnobs, and go put your feet up with a good book. As your thread is now dead. It may seem alive, but it's been fatally wounded and doomed to repeat itself ad infinitum.

Would that be classed as a silent flounce?

I'd rather a bit of hand-wringing than a bit of apathy.

Well if one good thing came from this thread it was to remind me to get myself down to the French embassy here and make sure I'm on the electoral roll.

If we have new generations of people who not only don't have a problem with gay relationships but honestly can't see why anyone would, there's a bit more hope.

Here's hoping. My great fear is that it is down to upbringing rather than a generational thing. There's still a lot of outdated, irrelevant and unreasonable attitudes being handed down.

<Hypothetical situation> I was burgled the other day. In retrospect it was naive of me to leave the back door unlocked. I will fight for the day we can all leave our door's unlocked, but until then...<hypothetical situtation/>

I [i]think[/i] that is along the lines of Edukator's argument

On the flipside we could all trip over ourselves to excessively hand-wring. Whats worse?

Your nonsensical contributions?

The deadline was the end of December, Atlaz, unless have longer to reigster when living aborad.

Guys, please don't turn this into a massive argument.

LOL

Edukator speaks no sense at all. Its the classic blame the victim stance he espouses and it stinks

TJ - I think its quite a common position for "closet homophobes" to take - "Its OK to be gay, so long as you don't flaunt it in front of me, I'll tolerate you".

Now that is the kind of faulty logic you need to be railing against - there is no evidence he is a homophobe
His argument seems to be hey there are homophobes out there be careful and adapt your behaviour – gay club – do as you please Witherspoons be a bit more discrete - hardly makes him homophobic.

Your attitude stinks. You are blaming hem for the prejudice they encountered.

If I advise an Asian person to not attend the EDL meeting and chant from the Koran am I a closet racist and blaiming them for the prejudices ?

So it would be wise for the asian above to do this and the consequences unforeseen [ this is nothing like the incident for emsz and Sara but you get the point].
No one is blaming the victim and that is spurious to say the least.

but I know what Edukator is trying to say, it's a fact of life that we have to be careful sometimes, we just forgot for a minute

THIS obviously, its wrong , it shit , it should not have to happen but it is reality so to be safe you need to make appropriate choices whether gay or straight. It is not blaming the victim it is trying to be a victim.

To say that emsz should have to modify her behaviour to avoid the bigots is blaming her for the bigots actions.

FFS we are not super heros we don’t wander through life tackling every injustice we see and challenging all those we perceive to be wrong as many of those are thugs who would think nothing of hospitalising you. That is the reality you need to deal with
I have been with gay friends and been abused by a gang of 30 blokes - what did we do head down walked on.
Was this right or fair of course not but to suggest it is not there and you should not be careful [ and if you do you are condoning the behaviour of ****ers or blaiming the victim] is just stupid, illogical and ridiculous.

^^^

😉

Being happy to think I'm not French when I am would suggest so.

Nope I was just being happy that you won't be voting marine. However as you're french I have no doubt you won't be voting for respect and tolerance.

The deadline was the end of December, Atlaz, unless have longer to reigster when living aborad.

Double abroad. I've moved from the UK to Luxembourg so I need to register anyway.

Junkyard +1.

TJ, is the air so thin up there that it's affecting your cognitive skills?
[img] [/img]
(Or, at the very least, wear a helmet. You know it makes sense.)

Bayrou alors, il incarne quoi d'après toi, Juan, (on se tutoie ?) si ce n'est pas le repsect et la tolérance ? J'ai discuté longuement avec lui, principalement sur les thèmes de l'éducation et le développement durable; je l'apprécie, il ne me prend pas pour un gogo.

Je pars en Allemangne avec un car d'enfants demain, tu me fais confiance ? Ou tu comptes alerter les authorités ?