[Closed] Hive ~ that heating app thing ~ a few questions

And does it think you are in if you leave your phone at home, or a tablet running the app?

(Also interested)

I know you can use it from more than one device. You can logon from any computer as far as I know. I looked at it briefly but it doesn't do what I wanted.

Plenty of Hive threads on here already.....

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/hive-active-heating-from-british-gas

Cheers. Thinking about it, I hadn't altered the time scale when I did my search 🙄

In true STW style - you don't want a Hive, you want what I've got: [url= https://nest.com/uk/ ]Nest learning thermostat.[/url]

I don't see the point.

Why would you want to switch your heating on and off when you are not in the house?

If I'm not in the heating is off or it's on auto with a low temp set on the thermostat to prevent any problems from frozen pipes etc.

Technology for the sake of it.

You don't want the Nest thing. You want the Tado thing. Does everything the Nest does but quicker, and it works with your hot water too.

I don't see the point.

Why would you want to switch your heating on and off when you are not in the house?

If I'm not in the heating is off or it's on auto with a low temp set on the thermostat to prevent any problems from frozen pipes etc.

Technology for the sake of it.

We go away quite a bit and in irregular patterns. Background heat is fine to stop things breaking, but its nice to be able to turn things up a couple of hours from home and return to a toasty house.

Heatmiser here - works well with our mongrel oil/wood/solar system.

turn things up a couple of hours from home and return to a toasty house.

1st World Problems of the highest order!

A house would need to be empty for quite a few days before the internal structure and fittings cooled down enough for pipes to begin freezing. Think climbing huts and derelict houses here, not houses that are left unheated for a long weekend.

People underestimate the storage effect of the structure of their houses.

I have it - it's a bloody useful bit of kit IMHO.

Pros:

* Being able to fiddle with the heating from bed. Or the lounge.
* Fine-tuning a schedule for the week ahead based on what's happening - takes less than 2 minutes.
* Being able to keep the heating off if we're late back.
* Having easy control over hot water timing.
* Wall thermostat is easy to use and clear for non-phone use.

Cons:

* No heating "boost" function (though one is coming).
* No wireless TRVs (again, coming soon apparently).
* Geolocation doesn't actually change the heating, just gives reminders. And doesn't seem to work well on my iPad.
* Thermostat looks a bit clunky.

The Nest looks good but has been badly fudged to make it work in the UK, requiring a number of intermediary units. It also, irritatingly, requires 12v to work. So you either have to bury a 12v transformer in the wall, have a cable dangling, or sit it on the table in a stand, again, with a cable dangling out the back.

It also can't do hot water and can't be controlled over the net, so you need a phone to program it.

gobuchul - Member
turn things up a couple of hours from home and return to a toasty house.
[b]1st World Problems of the highest order!
[/b]
POSTED 12 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

You're new here aren't you? 😉

Continuing the recommend what you own theme, you could get a [url= http://www.tado.com/de-en/ ]Tado[/url]

I installed mine at the end of December last year, and so far:

2013 Jan - Mar 3699.08 kWh £153.59
2014 Jan - Mar 3009.24 kWh £124.94

So nearly 20% saving compared to last year. Not sure if this is a function of a warmer winter this year, or the technology itself.

I get my money back if it doesn't save €120 in the first year. It's going to have to go some to do that.

The Nest looks good but has been badly fudged to make it work in the UK, requiring a number of intermediary units. It also, irritatingly, requires 12v to work. So you either have to bury a 12v transformer in the wall, have a cable dangling, or sit it on the table in a stand, again, with a cable dangling out the back.

It also can't do hot water and can't be controlled over the net, so you need a phone to program it.

No special interest in defending my purchase decision, but a couple of comments:

1. It is controllable online (via website login) or via a phone app.
2. It works by wifi, so there's small wifi switch on the wall next to the boiler. My boiler's in the garage, so it makes no difference to me.
3. I hadn't considered the hot water point - I have a combi boiler, so get hot water on demand. But my heating is via LPG, so anything which can better manage consumption is fine with me.
4. It learns when you're in/out and heats accordingly, so no need to actively control it. It also takes a local weather reading, and alters its behaviour to match.

1st World Problems of the highest order!

Winter before last (when it was v chilly), our LPG cost us £500 a month for 4 months. We now have a stove, so use that heavily in the sitting room and minimise central heating use in the rest of the house. Anything that can further lower the cost is fine with me. Not sure that's an especially first world concern....

My mate uses the tado controller and he loves it. I have ordered one too, and the thing that swung me to tado is that it installs on your mobile devices and tracks your location, so knows when you come and go, learns about regular patterns and adjusts the heating automatocally. If your away and go to head home, the tado app knows this and turns the heating on at the right time to get the heat up to temp by the time you get home. If you come home every Tuesday evening, but are only in for 15 minutes and then head out again, it learns that and knows not to turn on the heating. The location thing is what makes it awesome. And my mate can see on graphs when his missus has returned and left the house, so slags he if shes late lol. You can either pay an up front cost, about £240 I think, or pay it every month at £6.99 a month. Follow them on twitter and ask a question and a guy will call you to check that you got the answer you need, and also offer you a 10% discount. Seem like really nice people too

Anything that can further lower the cost is fine with me. Not sure that's an especially first world concern....

How does it lower the cost?

It sounds like most people use it to turn the heating on a couple of hours before they get home. That will cost more than simply switching on your heating when in the house.

Not sure if this is a function of a warmer winter this year, or the technology itself.

My money is on the warmer winter.

It sounds like most people use it to turn the heating on a couple of hours before they get home. That will cost more than simply switching on your heating when in the house.

A better comparison is against a traditional timer CH controller which switches the heating on at a set time regardless of whether anyone is home or not.

I put the gas fire on when I come in and keep the doors closed while that room warms up. In the meantime the second I come in I turn the heating on.
Draft chasing became an obsession with after I got this house. New windows, cavity wall insulation and attic insulation mean my heating gas bill is really quite low.
I'm sure many will love this "Hive" thing but to me it just looks like a gimmick.

or pay it every month at £6.99 a month.

For a fancy thermostat?

Not sure if this is a function of a warmer winter this year, or the technology itself.
My money is on the warmer winter.

Definitely a warmer winter, we have used half the logs and solid fuel we did last year.

How does it lower the cost?

It sounds like most people use it to turn the heating on a couple of hours before they get home. That will cost more than simply switching on your heating when in the house.

Simple efficiency of when it chooses to switch itself on and off, rather than having to rely on a timer.

I suspect for many people who use mains gas and have well insulated homes, the apparent difference will be minimal. For those who fall outside those "norms", it's more likely you'll get a faster payback.

I don't see the point.

Don't get one then.

Why would you want to switch your heating on and off when you are not in the house?

I went to work on Friday morning, I was expecting to be back at around 4pm. And at home over the weekend.

As it happens, I didn't go back home and a change of plans meant I was away all weekend only got back at 9pm last night (Monday)

My heating and hot water was on its usual timer operation coming on and going off to the whole time I was away (3.5 days) total waste of money. But there was nothing I could do as I wasn't at home to change it.

1st World Problems of the highest order!

How is not wanting to waste money by burning fuel for no reason a first world problem ?

As it happens, I didn't go back home and a change of plans meant I was away all weekend only got back at 9pm last night (Monday)

My heating and hot water was on its usual timer operation coming on and going off to the whole time I was away (3.5 days) total waste of money. But there was nothing I could do as I wasn't at home to change it.

Simple efficiency of when it chooses to switch itself on and off, rather than having to rely on a timer

So, Hive is really a fancy timer, which stops the heating coming on when you're out (based on where your phone is).

I mean, if we're mostly in, then the difference will be practically nothing?

So you didn't go home for clean undercrackers and whatever else?

My life is quite varied and interesting, I always have a bag of clothes etc with me in the van just in case.

It's nice to be able to change plans and go off and do something exciting at the drop of a hat.

I installed mine at the end of December last year, and so far:

2013 Jan - Mar 3699.08 kWh £153.59
2014 Jan - Mar 3009.24 kWh £124.94

So nearly 20% saving compared to last year. Not sure if this is a function of a warmer winter this year, or the technology itself.

Are you in the UK? Because if you are you may have notice a massive temperature related seasonal differential in the two periods you've quoted which will have helped your numbers, which means they are probably not Hive related.

The monthly email I get from Hive tells me that on average my house is 4C colder than those in the surrounding area. Which if nothing else confirms that I'm (a) not home that much and (b) a cheapskate.

[i]The monthly email I get from Hive tells me that on average my house is 4C colder than those in the surrounding area.[/i]

How the hell can it know that?

How the hell can it know that?

Because some of them also have Hive maybe ?

My heating and hot water was on its usual timer operation coming on and going off to the whole time I was away (3.5 days) total waste of money. But there was nothing I could do as I wasn't at home to change it.

So you live by yourself and use a hot water tank?

If you really wanted to save money get a combi or if that's not an option, switch off your HW when you are out.

Although TBH in your situation then having remote control of your heating does make sense. Still can't see the point for 90% of people.

Personally I don't use a timer, switch in heating on when I get up in the morning, house is well insulated so even in winter it's not that cold in the morning. It also warms up very quickly.

Besides all this discussion, the radio advert for Hive is possibly the most annoying ever and totally puts me off.

hang on, what am I talking about.

this thing is a remote control thermostat?

presumably that means I can override what my wife sets on the thermostat? this could save me thousands.

presumably that means I can override what my wife sets on the thermostat? this could save me thousands.

Swings (heating bills) and Roundabouts (divorce settlement) innit 😀

Are these things mainly aimed at singles/couples without children?
our movements are so irregular one of these things would never work - plus what happens when someone's at home but 'the' phone isn't?

I do like tech [and am setting up a system that will allow me to remotely switch certain heating on and off at another property we have] but I bet you'd save more just by turning the temp down by 1 degree.

Are these things mainly aimed at singles/couples without children?
our movements are so irregular one of these things would never work - plus what happens when someone's at home but 'the' phone isn't?

Irregular movement is the whole point. Heating is on when you are home, off when you aren't.

Plus, a house that's allowed to cool down will just use more fuel heating back up.

My mistake, On/Off is inaccurate. It turns the heating down depending on how far away from home you are. How far down is up to you, there is a savings/comfort slider.

Plus, a house that's allowed to cool down will just use more fuel heating back up

Heat miser is where it's at apparently. So the bloke that fitted ours told me anyway!

@gobuchul - I realise we should have stuck with our 30 year old thermostat despite it sounding like a wind up toy and behaving quite erratically but I just couldn't stand it any longer 🙂

Presumably you can turn the geo-placement thing off?

Plus, a house that's allowed to cool down will just use more fuel heating back up.

Really?!

So you live by yourself and use a hot water tank?
If you really wanted to save money get a combi or if that's not an option, switch off your HW when you are out.

Not sure why you think I live on my own (I don't)

I don't need to go to the huge expense of a new combi boiler to turn my hot water off when I need to.

I can install a remote system, and do it that way instead.
(Or switch to British Gas and get it fitted for free)

Unless you know of a way I can buy a combi boiler and have it installed for less than £200 ?
And even then my heating would still be on a timer, not controllable from elsewhere.

1st World Problems of the highest order!
How is not wanting to waste money by burning fuel for no reason a first world problem ?

You can save fuel by simply turning the heating off when you are going to be away, like normal people do. That means the house is cold for an hour when you get back - this app doesn't save any more fuel than turning the heating off - it just means you don't have to endure an hour of coldness.

That's why he called it a first world problem.

For those who come and go randomly without notice it's useful, but most people don't do that.

Not sure why you think I live on my own (I don't)

I assumed that because in the example you gave of how useful it is, if your partner/wife was at home when you changed your plans at the last minute, you wouldn't need to switch the heating off. Also, getting a 72 hr pass is a little more complex for most of us in relationships. 🙂

I assumed that because in the example you gave of how useful it is, if your partner/wife was at home when you changed your plans at the last minute, you wouldn't need to switch the heating off.

The change of plans was her idea, and I went to join her.

Also, getting a 72 hr pass is a little more complex for most of us in relationships.

It's a lot easier if your other half shares your interests and likes being spontaneous too.

Anyway, it will work perfectly for us. Which is why we will be getting it sorted ASAP.

Plus, a house that's allowed to cool down will just use more fuel heating back up.

oh, really?

internet relic time!

[img] [/img]

those doubting it have never lived in a house with 3ft thick stone walls without interior cladding. Its cheaper to keep heat in those walls than heat the air space every time as that stone can pull the heat quicker thn the rads can put it in(rental house so couldnt dry line it)

for standard cardboard box houses the above does not apply.

Its cheaper to keep heat in those walls than heat the air space every time

Bare stone walls are simply crap insulators.

and your point is ? they are there , and they were there to stay and not mine to change....

there for when your house is stone walled its cheaper to keep them heated if you occupy it as a family home and not just a doss pit

In theory, the smart thermostat of choice will work out what is the most energy efficient way to heat said stone wall house.

for standard cardboard box houses the above does not apply.

You mean well insulated ones? 🙂

Maybe I'm being thick, but I simply don't get why people think that it can be cheaper to keep a house constantly heated than to only heat it when you need to.

While a house is hot inside, it is leaking energy out to the outside. This is true in any real house unless it's hotter outside than in. The effectiveness of your insulation affects how much heat you loss. The thermal mass in the structure of your building affects how long (for a given heat source) or how much energy it takes to heat it up. But, SURELY, the hotter your house is inside, the greater the thermal gradient to outside, so the higher the (absolute) heat loss is.

If I turn my heating off while I'm out for the day, then I will lose less heat energy during that day than if I left it on. The only way that it can possibly end up costing me more, is if my heat source works less efficiently when delivering a high rate of heat input (whilst warming the house up from cold) than in a state of "keeping it warm". Modern condensing boilers DO work a bit more efficiently at lower revs, so to speak, but not by THAT much. And anyway a cleverer system would be to figure out that if you're home from work at 7, then it's better for the heating to come on at 6 with a flow temp of, say, 40C, rather than at 6:30 with a flow temp of 60C. Or equivalently, for a clever operator to simply turn down the temperature setting on his dumb system and wait longer for the house to warm up.

I'm thinking of getting a Honeywell Evohome setup (wireless programmable TRVs, centrally / remotely programmed and controlled) so that I can also only heat the rooms that I want to heat, for both comfort and economy benefits. E.g. I can set it so that little kids' rooms won't drop below 17C overnight in winter, without the kitchen being heated at 3am, I can set it so that bedrooms are free to get chilly during the day, and with one press I can set it to all switch to economy mode if I'm off out for the day / weekend whatever. That's the plan, anyway. Not cheap though, so not sure if it'll pay for itself in its lifetime (current set-up already fairly efficient).

and your point is ?

Oh yes, I did omit that.

Without meaning to sound rude, my point is that you're wrong, it is cheaper to only heat the house for when you need it heated, instead of heating it all the time, [i]regardless[/i] of the wall construction.

ok , enjoy being cold.

I don't.

None of which has anything to do with heat flow and home heating cost.

Maybe I'm being thick, but I simply don't get why people think that it can be cheaper to keep a house constantly heated than to only heat it when you need to.

Has anyone mentioned this being better (I can't be bothered going back and reading)?

Yes.

Most of this page so you won't need to read back all that far 😉

Maybe I'm being thick, but I simply don't get why people think that it can be cheaper to keep a house constantly heated than to only heat it when you need to.

Has anyone mentioned this being better (I can't be bothered going back and reading)?
The issue being discussed is whether these systems will ever repay their cost compared to a standard 7 day programmable thermostat? Or have they been produced by companies making money off some people's believe that all technology is for the better?

I think that's what trail_rat was saying, though am not entirely sure:

those doubting it have never lived in a house with 3ft thick stone walls without interior cladding. Its cheaper to keep heat in those walls than heat the air space every time as that stone can pull the heat quicker thn the rads can put it in(rental house so couldnt dry line it)
for standard cardboard box houses the above does not apply.

And someone else:

Plus, a house that's allowed to cool down will just use more fuel heating back up.

(I can't be bothered to go back up and read to see who, if you can't.)

Some of these systems are really not expensive. I don't know the exact costs of Hive / Nest, but I think that they're in the ~£200 ballpark. Given that some people seem to spend more than a grand a year on gas (never mind those on more expensive fuels), it really wouldn't take much of an efficiency boost to pay for themselves in a year or two.

My personal guess is that it depends hugely on what system / way of using it they are replacing. Some people are really crap at using their systems efficiently, because either it's too much hassle or they just have no interest in it. Any cunning system that helps them might well give them a 20% reduction I reckon, but clearly it depends, for some people the boiler would end up doing damn near exactly the same thing as it does with a standard timer / stat setup. The marketing material for the Evohome system that I mentioned talks about a 40% reduction. I can believe that that's theoretically [i]possible[/i] if moving from a crappy system being used crappily, to using a posh system really effectively, but I'd be amazed if I achieved more than a 5 or 10% reduction with it (meaning a 6-12 year payback time, so the main benefit would be convenience - which is why I'm not convinced that it's a good idea, but that's because we're talking ~£600).

I would be surprised if the people making them weren't hoping to make money, and for that to be partly attributable to people upgrading for the technofun of it, but it's hard to argue against the notion that simple systems aren't perfect, so it's no bad thing to make them better. Personally I think the auto-learning (i.e. when you tend to come home etc.) magic is the slightly daft aspect of it - I'm not convinced that people are consistent enough for that to be very useful..

Yes.

Most of this page so you won't need to read back all that far

I don't know the exact costs of Hive / Nest, but I think that they're in the ~£200 ballpark. Given that some people seem to spend more than a grand a year on gas (never mind those on more expensive fuels), it really wouldn't take much of an efficiency boost to pay for themselves in a year or two.

A grand! I should be so lucky....

Nest was £180 fitted. On bottled LPG, I reckon it will pay back within a year.

A grand! I should be so lucky....

Nest was £180 fitted. On bottled LPG, I reckon it will pay back within a year.

When we were on coal and got through just over a grand in a winter, we thought "crikey, this is nuts", and got gas installed. Our last (different house now, not that that's terribly relevant) gas bill was about £250 for Jan-Mar, so we'll probably be paying around £700 this year. I know that's not much compared with some, but it still could be better. We're in a 50s 3 bed semi, fairly well insulated but nothing unusual. It has been a very mild winter though, and I'm guessing that in ten years, fuel prices will be a touch higher (hence my guestimate that we'll pay an average of nearer a grand per year over the next decade).

It's only a few years ago that our gas bills were more like £80 per quarter, but I've a hunch that's at least partly because we were out all day in the week, and just put up with it being pretty cold. Now that there are people here almost every day, some in the range 0-2 years old, we're using a lot more gas. That might change a bit over the next decade too though, I guess.

We can't really use a Hive or Nest with our system - we don't actually have an internal thermostat, just an external one, hence looking at a TRV-based system (which also gives the option to control rooms / zones separately).

We can't really use a Hive or Nest with our system - we don't actually have an internal thermostat, just an external one, hence looking at a TRV-based system (which also gives the option to control rooms / zones separately).

Nest itself is the controller and thermostat. It then speaks wirelessly to switch that's wired into the boiler. I suspect you could make it work.

I think the full TRV-based system is probably the best way (along with heaps of insulation), though for me the Nest is a neat way into some more accurate control over our heating (and gas usage).

And these days the stove is used throughout the winter.

What our house needs is a heat recirculation system - sucks hot air from the top floor and blows it in at the bottom.

OR underfloor heating in the downstairs hallway.

Nest itself is the controller and thermostat. It then speaks wirelessly to switch that's wired into the boiler. I suspect you could make it work.

Technically I could indeed do that, but would need to bypass the controller that's built in to my boiler along with the external temperature sensor. That would mean ditching the weather compensation and reverting my system to an old-skool on-off set-up that would almost certainly cancel out any economy benefits of the Nest set-up.

My current system monitors outside temperature and not only gets a head start on what the house is likely to do (e.g. temperature outside dropping -> start pumping some heat into the house to avoid temperature drop inside) for comfort, but also modulates the radiator circuit temperature according to the difference between the outside actual and inside desired temperatures (for efficiency). This way it will actually run with a lowish temperature (and hence in max. boiler efficiency domain) most of the time rather than going through a rads cold, rads cold, rads HOT, rads HOT cycle. It's a very good system for a "what I want is all rooms comfortable all of the time, achieved in the most efficient way" scenario, but doesn't have very convenient controls for the situations where you want to only heat the house (or indeed individual rooms) when you need it heated.

I reckon that in 10 years, the best aspects of all of these systems will be combined and commonplace. Currently it would take lots of geekery and money to get the ideal set-up, but not for any good reason.

gray - that's really interesting. And I agree, that combining all this stuff will soon become obvious. By which time we'll all be debating the merits of payback on those future systems!

One thing - my Nest knows what my outside temp is (not through external thermostat, but the blunter instrument of available weather data for the area). It also knows internal temp where it is sited, and also internal humidity. In theory, it ought to follow a similar principle to your system for when it switches the heat on/off, but without the benefit of specific local external temps and room specific monitoring.