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the evidence in recent days /weeks seems to present a different picture from that described by liverpool fans earlier in the inquests of police at fault and at fault now we here evidence of drunk fans, late commers without tickets charging the turnstiles orchestrated attempts to push over the turnstiles by ticketless fans
all leaves a nasty taste of many things coming together to unwittingly cause a tragedy that no one could for see, but the 21st centuries obsession with finding someone/thing at fault may yet falter.
Evidence from last few weeks? Links?
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/all-about/hillsborough-inquests
http://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/hearings/
transcripts
I thought that 'evidence' was always in the public domain? I didn't realise it was information just coming out?
OH MY GOSH!!
Drunk fans at a football match??! A cup semi final nonetheless. ONLY Liverpool fans could be so poorly behaved....
ONLY Liverpool fans could be so poorly behaved....
Not really what anyone was saying though is it. More that the fans were not all well behaved and that the police were probably trying to deal with multiple issues at once.
Football matches from that era were scary. I remember growing up in Hudds lots of vans, chasing fans, fighting, groups chasing each other etc etc. We all seem to forget how some sections of fans were nasty. The Police/powers cracked down didn't they- bans from games, no open drinks on the streets etc etc.
I can walk round Man Utd in the surrounding area on any game day before or after the match and feel safe.
I think multiple incidents came together into one tragic outcome. Failure of command to tackle, overwhelmed etc. Sadly alot of people died for us to get our safer grounds and experience today.
There is a reason there was a big fence between the fans and the pitch...
Years and years of behaviour that would shame a hyena was 'accepted' and such measures put in place to combat it.
A few drunk fans does not excuse the ineptitude of the police on that day and the subsequent cover-up.
scottchegg: that is one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard.
mikey74 did you ever go to football matches in your youth? I did- I also went to speedway, packed out and I can't remember trouble there by comparison. The Police FAILED that day. To cover up their failings they tried covering up their part. I wish they didn't. Then we'd see the whole mess.
[b][u]Again the Police there failed, changed/doctored statements etc to cover their own arses. Not good.[/u][/b]
Even now in Huddersfield on certain match days you see a big Police presence around the train station and throughout the town. Whys that? I'd like to know Mikey.
I remember in the 90's in Southampton at the Saints ground- that was abit hairy at times- I remember dodging pint glasses smashing around us being hurled high and over.
You can go to a Rugby League match- walk round the town first in your shirt, sit in a pub. You don't need escorting to and from the ground either.
Recently I was near Man U when Bayern were playing. It was hilarious- the German fans marched in order and banging drums etc. Stopped as one- chanted etc. Me and 4yr old horajunior were stood infront of them laughing and loving it. The fans grinned at us. It was great. Rollback the years - if I wasn't at the match to watch I'd be nowhere near AND I most certainly wouldn't wear a football shirt and be on my own.
Mikey74 what are you objecting to? Football is the only sport where the fans had to be caged to stop them causing trouble. It wasn't needed at other sports. Says a lot about the mentality of a substantial minority that this was needed
Scary to say this but Hora has made a good point. I was dragged to Hillsborough as a kid by my uncle & my dad from the late 70s to the early 80s and it could be bloody scary at some games. Fights on the terraces, attacks on players, missiles from the crowds and lots of drunken fans.
The Leppings Lane terrace was an accident waiting to happen but not unique. I recall a nasty incident on the pitch at Oldham sparking Wednesday fans to riot and wreck the ground. It was all a bit Clockwork Orange at that time, the football was just something that happened at the same time.
I am objecting to the fact that scottchegg missed the whole point: this is not about the presence of fences at grounds (and yes, I did go to football matches in those days), it is about an extremely mismanaged situation that was tantamount to manslaughter.
To blame it on the presence of fences is to suggest that the police were not culpable for their actions.
The fences were required. It save the players and stop the fans from getting to other fans.
To blame it on the presence of fences is to suggest that the police were not culpable for their actions.
He didn't he mentioned there was a reason for the fences, not once did he say it was the cause.
But that is irrelevant when assessing what caused the problem in the first place.
No one is saying the fans were saints bit the whole situation was so poorly managed that the fence became a weapon, rather than a thing of safety.
So what was the point of mentioning it drac?
Football in the eighties was a very different experience. There are still pockets of trouble, mainly in the lower leagues now.
I can accept that the fans that day behaved differently to how they would now. I can also accept that there were safety and organisational shortcomings on the day. I cannot accept the police cover up that followed.
The fences went from becoming an asset/necessity to bring all the bad management and fans into one conclusion.
Theses "unheared" views are they notvthe reason why the sun isnt sold in merseyside?
Not to mention the fact that journalists were pickpocketing injured fans on the pitch to gather information.
As with so many other disasters, the cause was a combination of several different factors, including ground design, police training and planning, and poor behaviour by some people arriving after 2pm.
I think it's fair to say that many of the lessons around ground design and crowd control will have been learned, so for me the live issue is how SYP as an organisation conducted themselves in the aftermath.
Very distressing for me to read some of the accounts of what people experienced and witnessed that day. I hope that the inquest findings can not only help the families of those who died or were seriously injured, but also those individual lower-ranking officers who almost certainly had no opportunity to influence the outcome, but may have spent the last few decades believing that they did.
No one is saying the fans were saints bit the whole situation was so poorly managed that the fence became a weapon, rather than a thing of safety.
True
But the situation was mismanaged in the context of the police having a real fear and risk of widespread violence breaking out.
decisions made at the time were made in that light.
none of that excuses what happened afterwards of course.
Hillsborough is a funny one. No one is allowed to criticise the behaviour of some of the fans.
The police made some mistakes and then tried to cover some of them up. Disgraceful.
However, the behaviour of the late arriving Liverpool fans was also to blame for the disaster.
Nobody could actually blame the fans already in the ground but the large numbers of people pushing to get in, a lot without tickets, must take part of the blame.
Hillsborough is a funny one. No one is allowed to criticise the behaviour of some of the fans.
I don't think it's that funny to be honest. Those fans were criticised for 23 years, I've no doubt some people behaved poorly that day, but what happened was a complete disgrace.
However, the behaviour of the late arriving Liverpool fans was also to blame for the disaster.Nobody could actually blame the fans already in the ground but the large numbers of people pushing to get in, a lot without tickets, must take part of the blame.
No they weren't to blame, this has been covered many times.
The crowd began to build up outside the ground as early as 2:30, but there was a lack of operational turnstiles which meant the crowd built up outside the ground.
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9539936/Hillsborough-report-reveals-the-catalogue-of-errors-that-led-to-disaster-and-attempts-at-a-cover-up.html ]Telegraph report[/url]
Because the Yorkshire constabularies have covered themselves in glory in the last few decades haven't they?
People say that crowd behaviour is better nowadays and at the same time we are told (though we may not believe it) that violent crime is down. Some attribute this to the removal of lead from petrol 20 years ago.
Possibly the same reason?
Nobody could actually blame the fans already in the ground but the large numbers of people pushing to get in, a lot without tickets, must take part of the blame.
I can't believe people still have this view after all the evidence that has come out and the facts established. You can't blame the fans for being part of a crowd. What are they supposed to do? Shout 'stop pushing at the back' and attempt to stand still? The blame as has been shown lies squarely with those who were managing the crowd, ie. the police. They showed a complete disregard for public safety and made some incredibly poor and negligent decisions which resulted in lots of people dying, and then tried to cover it up and blame the victims. I think this has been established beyond any reasonable doubt.
Globalti - the end of football violence was something to do with chemistry, but not lead in petrol.
It was the influx of industrial quantities of really high grade MDMA from Holland. Which was embraced with open arms by the very same people who would previously have been knocking lumps out of each other on a Saturday afternoon. Your appetite for that is somewhat diminished by the fact that you're still off your napper, completely loved up, having pushed on through from an all nighter at a warehouse in Blackburn, and what you really want is a hug.
Dove anyone?
incident on the pitch at Oldham sparking Wednesday fans to riot and wreck the ground.
Boundary Park was a wreck before Wednesday showed up.
People say that crowd behaviour is better nowadays and at the same time we are told (though we may not believe it) that violent crime is down.
And yet we're also told that the police need water cannons, not sure why that is then.
This is a complete red herring - there may have been a load of drunk, ticketless, violent people there, but they weren't the ones in charge of crowd safety.
As loads of you have pointed out, drunken, violent, ticketless "supporters" were a feature of football in the 80s so those who were tasked with crowd safety should have planned for them anyway.
And I don't think it was drunken, ticketless Liverpudlians who altered police statements afterwards and perjured themselves at the original inquest.
I think this has been established beyond any reasonable doubt
But you are assuming that people listen to logic and think rationally and objectively. There are still a large number of people who will not accept that drunken scousers didnt play at least a significant part in the tragedy and that the lies printed in the Sun were at least to some extent true.
There are still a large number of people who will not accept that drunken scousers didnt play at least a significant part in the tragedy and that the lies printed in the Sun were at least to some extent true.
Sadly this is true. I've heard otherwise rational and intelligent people at my workplace voice the same rubbish about 'drunken scousers without tickets' etc. The fact that most of them are Man U fans is completely unrelated I'm sure. I guess the lesson is that football tribalism in some cases can have the strange effect of turning normal rational people into blathering idiots.
As with so many other disasters, the cause was a combination of several different factors, including ground design, police training and planning, and poor behaviour by some people arriving after 2pm.I think it's fair to say that many of the lessons around ground design and crowd control will have been learned, so for me the live issue is how SYP as an organisation conducted themselves in the aftermath.
Pretty much this
Thankfully i have absolutely no intrest in football or watching lads run round a field hugging each other.
But i do have an intrest in senior officers ordering lower grades to alter reports, reports going missing and the huge cost of legasl fees for retired police officers,then there are the deliberate lies told by reporters and editors of national newspapers.
And all the above without the suffering and greif the familes and freinds have sufered since that tragic day,when they expected truth to prevail and obviously it didnt.
Thankfully i have absolutely no intrest in football [b]or watching lads run round a field hugging each other.[/b]
What an odd thing to say.
The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that the victims were not to blame. As others have said, Hillsborough was the culmination of a whole host of issues in the sport, stadiums, Policing and society. Many of the errors in all those areas have been dealt with in the wake of Hillsborough and Bradford, which thankfully have not been repeated in this country since.
Most people know this and accept this. The victims have already been exonerated. The Police cover up has been exposed and needs to be pursued as a criminal act. I'm not entirely clear what the real point of this hugely expensive inquest is other than a need for lawyers to make fees trying to find someone to sue, which I believe is a terrible disservice to the victims and the community of Liverpool.
Globalti - the end of football violence was something to do with chemistry, but not lead in petrol.It was the influx of industrial quantities of really high grade MDMA from Holland. Which was embraced with open arms by the very same people who would previously have been knocking lumps out of each other on a Saturday afternoon. Your appetite for that is somewhat diminished by the fact that you're still off your napper, completely loved up, having pushed on through from an all nighter at a warehouse in Blackburn, and what you really want is a hug.
Dove anyone?
THIS
Football changed because the fans outlook on life changed due to being loved up.
Prices then changed who were the fans and the dark days of violence never returned
Has anyone commenting on this thread ever actually stood on the terraces at Hillsborough? The place was a shit hole, I was there as a kid to watch Sunderland, and stood on the kop end, this was after the Hillsborough disaster, I spent the game stood in front of a crush barrier, with my dad behind me, and the time trying to get out of the ground with both feet off the floor, jammed in a surging crowd,
The police cover up of the day has in my opinion prevented the real reasons for what happened being fully investigated. There were multiple failings in all areas on that day. From fans who shouldn't have been there turning up, to the FA's and SWFC's greed in choosing a poor and lazily policed stadium based on how many people you could fit in the place.
Roker Park has never had fences up, as far as I'm aware, and I don't think St James' did either, there was no need for them. The working class football supporters were treat like cattle back in the day.
Hillsborough didn't change football, changing the type of people who attended football changed football.
Roker Park has never had fences up, as far as I'm aware, and I don't think St James' did either, there was no need for them. The working class football supporters were treat like cattle back in the day
St James definitely had fences up.
They were took down the day after Hillsborough.
Roker Park has never had fences up, as far as I'm aware, and I don't think St James' did either, there was no need for them.
St James' did have a perimeter fence down one side and both ends, plus radial pens.
Roker park only had radial pens, but no perimeter fence.
paulosoxo - MemberHas anyone commenting on this thread ever actually stood on the terraces at Hillsborough?
Yes, me, on the East Bank for my sins and for too long, in the dark, dark days of Jack Charlton, Tommy Tynan, Roger Wilde, Jeff Johnson, Chris Turner et al.
You were hardly likely to be crushed as the standing joke used to be "I turned to the bloke next to me and said -OI!"
I kicked our flask over and it went down about 20 steps before it hit the person in front.
Only when big clubs came did it fill up, they were just crap at managing large number of fans in an era when fighting came first, then the football.
chrismac - MemberFootball is the only sport where the fans had to be caged to stop them causing trouble.
Clearly you've never watched a Starcraft tournament.
Not to mention the fact that journalists were pickpocketing injured fans on the pitch to gather information.
WTF? I mean really, WTF? And not at the journalists, but at the muppet making that assertion. Links, evidence, testimony? Anything to substantiate it?
Yes journalists in the UK sometimes push the envelope, but I would be massively surprised if this was the case. We really should stop giving the media such a kicking as it is an overwhelmingly positive force in our democracy.
And FFS, Hillsborough was a truly terrible disaster and people did wrong - but what are we going to achieve by endlessly raking over the coals beyond feeding the Merseyside Misery Machine?
At the time of Hillsborough I was a season ticket holder on the Kippax (Man City, Maine Road) which was the biggest terrace in England occupying the whoe of one side of the ground.
There were fences between the terrace and the pitch but the terrace did not have fences running from the top of the stand to the pitch to create pens. You could walk from one end of the Kippax to the other. I think if the Hillsborough stand had been one big area like the Kippax the tragedy would not have occurred (or at least been far less severe) as fans could have spread out. The stadium design seems to have been a major factor in what happened.
WTF? I mean really, WTF? And not at the journalists, but at the muppet making that assertion. Links, evidence, testimony? Anything to substantiate it?Yes journalists in the UK sometimes push the envelope, but I would be massively surprised if this was the case. We really should stop giving the media such a kicking as it is an overwhelmingly positive force in our democracy.
And FFS, Hillsborough was a truly terrible disaster and people did wrong - but what are we going to achieve by endlessly raking over the coals beyond feeding the [b]Merseyside Misery Machine[/b]?
Very sensible post until [b]this[/b], the families of the dead deserve to have their names completely exonerated and then remembered as the innocent victims that they are.
IMO what the police did on that day and their lies since is unforgiveable and the blame must lie in the main with them but some responsibility has to be shouldered by those that got hammered, arrived late and then forced barriers and turnstiles.
We really should stop giving the media such a kicking as it is an overwhelmingly positive force in our democracy.
Do you live in the UK?
Murdock and the right wing anti E bias of the press a positive force for democracy?
the interesting thing is the written media could not reprot news liek that on tv - it is allowed to be partial in its coverage
This is not good for democracy IMHO The holding of power in a few hands is not good for democracy as it encourages politicians to try to get his ear to garner his support.
they also print a load of shit and lies time and time again
they spin things and the distort
For every Guardian snowdon campaign there are hundreds of salacious celebrity gossip and distorted half truth reporting of facts
The devolution vote is a good example of the tactics they use as is the reporting on the EU
they could, and should, be something we are proud of. They are not, they are not even close
The stadium design seems to have been a major factor in what happened.
Finding out about what happened there in '81 in the spurs vs wolves match reinforces this
The stadium was an disaster waiting to happen, and narrowly avoided once before, like so many things, its not one simple mistake by the police on the day, but a series of cumulative factors that created the tragedy.
@thered - the victims have been exonerated, apologies in Parliament etc which I think is why some of us question, in our individual ways of phrasing it, what this hugely expensive inquest will achieve, rather than spending the money on investigating the coverup or something that may benefit wider society.
Regretable turn of phrase "Merseyside Misery Machine" in this particular case.
@Cletus - sadly not. The Leppings Lane terrace was small front to back with a large central tunnel. The surge down the tunnel and onto the terrace was a common sight. Sadly, the opportunity to spill left and right was hard to achieve and contributed to the crush at the front.