[Closed] Higher rate tax payers to lose child benefits

TJ - stop dumbing down the debate by constantly repeating the same thing over and over.

There is a big different between income (whether net or gross) and household income. And the term 'elite' is incredibly unhelpful. As is 'rich'. How well off you feel or are is a relative thing. Relative to other people, and relative to the cost of living the place you live.

I've just been on the ONS and looked up some figures (because, you know, some stats might be helpful here).

Average household disposable income is £25,831 a year (2006/07) or £500ish a week.

Not accounting for inflationary effects, an individual earning £43k would have £596 a week to spend.

How does this compare to average household expenditure? Well it is hard to do due to cost of living differences around the country. For instance for 2010, the average household expenditure in NE England was £372 a week. In London it is £577.

So, a household income of £500 a week is below average if you live in London, but well above it if you live in the NE.

Breakdown of:
Mortgage:
Council tax:
Utility bills:
Food:
Transport costs:
Clothes:
Insurances:
Etc...
C'mon TJ.

You forgot childcare (and associated costs) 🙂 Ours is £15k pa for one child.

what gets me is that the reason its not being done on joint incomes is that the DWP? or whoever works it out is so inefficient that it becomes too expensive to add 2 salaries together to make the calculation

wtf does that work?
and surely the torys withe their anti red tape and civil service agenda should be fixing that rather than ignoring it and introducing compromised legislation

CaptJon - What's their definition of disposable income? Not quipping, just curious.

I imagine it contains a whole lot of stupid.

i think the same, probably full of stuff that people think is a basic requirement and a right not a privilege.

stuff like: sky tv, 2x yearly foreign holidays, new car, eating out several times a week, gym subscription, books,mags,coffees whenever you feel like it (add it up, it's an eyeopener) 'shopping' for tat every weekend because you have nothing better to do, buying useless gadgets etc etc.

don't feel the need to subscribe to any of the above but then most people would laugh at paying £40 for a bike tyre 🙂

I really do wonder what we were wasting our money on.

Same here when we had kiddies. It's amazing how much money 2 people going to the pub every weekend can waste. Have kids, save money 😆

Back to the point, why are we arguing about this? Surely we all agree that in a democratic society we - each and every one of us - is more than entitled to get aggrieved/make a fuss/contact our MP when the government propose something we don't like. Exercise your democratic rights rather than wasting energy arguing (semantics) on here. Are we really surprised that some of us think this is fairer than others? This thread has turned into another "people have different opinions" shocker so should run and run...

TJ - stop [s]dumbing down the debate[/s] doing the same as usual by constantly repeating the same thing over and over.

FTFY

Breakdown of:
Monthly
Mortgage: £300
Council tax:£120
Utility bills: variable - maybe £120
Food: dunno - maybe £200
Transport costs: maybe £50 for bus fares for Mrs TJ
Clothes: very little and bought out of fripperies budget
Insurances: £13pcm and £240 pa
Etc...
C'mon TJ.

Thats all the essentials

Suprisingly well under the £1000 we actually spend

Are we really surprised that some of us think this is fairer than others?

Meanwhile some of us think this "fairness" business is a red herring. I agree with the argument that it's unfair. I disagree with how important that really is (compared with the unfairness of people struggling to feed their kids properly).

scuzz - Member
CaptJon - What's their definition of disposable income? Not quipping, just curious.

"Household disposable income represents the amount of money left available within the household sector for spending or saving, after expenditure associated with income (e.g. taxes and social contributions), property ownership (e.g. interest paid on mortgages and other borrowings) and provision for future pension income."

Presumably the fact it specifically mention interest on mortgages, the figures are before mortgage payments are made.

There is some irony that the Tories seem to be doing a much better job of running a Labour government than Labour ever did.

The system needs fine-tuning so that the blatant unfairness hinted at in the first post is removed, but overall, if you're earning 40k and struggling then you're not really entitled to call yourself poor.

[i]£1k/month for accom and food.
[/i]

My mortgage is £1400/month and council tax £200.

utilities are just over £170/month

we probably spend £120/week on food for a family of 4.

The system needs fine-tuning so that the blatant unfairness hinted at in the first post is removed

Why?

Breakdown of:
Mortgage:
Council tax:
Utility bills:
Food:
Transport costs:
Clothes:
Insurances:
Etc...
C'mon TJ.

My salary has crept me into the higher tax band but I rely on CB to stop me going in to the red each month. Mortgage + nursey fees + the unexpected are killing me. Why only yesterday our toilet threatened to cause a water feature in the kitchen below but I had to fix it myself coz there wasn't enough to cover a plumbers call out fee.
I still don't understand how I'm borderline struggling on the money I'm on

So, you're living beyond your means by the sounds of it, if you're that stretched, yet you can't see why you're 'struggling'?

Erm.... 😕

As for £40k+ per year:

For a single person with no kids, thattud be a tidy sum, and yes, you could easily have a very comfortable lifestyle unless you are a complete tit with money.

If that is a combined household income, and you had at least one kid, then you'd start to find things a bit difficult. You'd get by for sure, but holidays in Mustique and a new AUDI/BMW/Whatever every two years would probbly be out of the question.

i think the same, probably full of stuff that people think is a basic requirement and a right not a privilege.

stuff like: sky tv, 2x yearly foreign holidays, new car, eating out several times a week, gym subscription, books,mags,coffees whenever you feel like it (add it up, it's an eyeopener) 'shopping' for tat every weekend because you have nothing better to do, buying useless gadgets etc etc.

This. Many people seem to think they are somehow 'entitled' to such luxuries.

TJ - It's completely ridiculous to compare your level of fixed outgoings to someone who has dependents to support and a car (or two) to run. And before you say it, some people have no realistic option other than to own a car.

Pedalhead - I was asked so I answered.

Breakdown of:
Monthly
Mortgage: £300
Council tax:£120
Utility bills: variable - maybe £120
Food: dunno - maybe £200
Transport costs: maybe £50 for bus fares for Mrs TJ
Clothes: very little and bought out of fripperies budget
Insurances: £13pcm and £240 pa
Etc...
C'mon TJ

£13 for life insurance, buildings and contents, and only a £300 mortgage.

Who are you? Stig of the Dump??

TJ - It's completely ridiculous to compare your level of fixed outgoings to someone who has dependents to support and a car (or two) to run. And before you say it, some people have no realistic option other than to own a car.

I have dependents and spend less than half the figures quoted by wwaswas. This isn't to have a go at him/ her, but to demonstrate that many of these costs are discretionary.

200!

Ooh and no pension payment listed, that's alright though because you can scrounge off the state from the tax and NI contributions you don't pay.

HIPPY!

Pedalhead - I was asked so I answered.

Yes, but you are the one applying labels to people on a certain income...labels that are *relative* to your own situation. Strikes me that you need to understand that you appear to have extremely low outgoings, especially compared to someone with dependents and with a realistic modern mortgage to pay. In actual fact, in terms of real disposable income, you are probably more "rich" (by your own definition) than many £43k plus earners.

£300 for a mortgage? Cheapest I could get on ours was £900, dropping to £700 when the interest rates dropped and our fixed term finished. I'm envious.

Maybe there's something to living in Scotland after all. Shame it is nowhere near my core employment area really.

£500 a month is put aside to pay my accommodation food and bills - Mrs TJ does the same - so thats £1000 per month for all living expenses for two of us. [b]Anything else we spend is pure fripperies. Beer, going out, holidays etc. [/b]

Plenty of people have zero money for "fripperies. Beer, going out, holidays etc" which makes you one of the rich elite in their eyes.

I was asked what my budget was so replied. thats for two people as well

I don't have any life insurance. £13 month bricks and mortar. 240 pa contents

Yes my mortgage is low. I bought 20 years ago and have not moved to go "up the property ladder" being content to live in a one bed flat the flat now would cost maybe £700 a month

don - clothes and eating out come out of the fripperies/ non essentials budget - but we do buy a lot of clothes from secondhand shops, I have never bought any new furniture - its all second hand for example. telly is 20yrs old. I did buy a £300 computer a year or two ago - last consumer purchase I made.

I don't really know what we spend on food - its all out of the £1000 a month and I simply spend it. Plenty for me so I don't need to watch what I spend. May well be more than I quoted but the £1000 a month essentials account does slowly accumulate money.

Ooh and no pension payment listed, that's alright though because you can scrounge off the state from the tax and NI contributions you don't pay.

HIPPY!

Eh? I receive nothing from the state. No benfits at all

Boarding bob - I do consider myself rich as I know families that live on less

Elfin - you're right, soz, I had my rant head on. I know where it goes. The unexpected, i.e. yonugest child breaking both our pairs of glasses/cam belts/blah de blah etc

Essentially it's the kids fault 🙂

Strikes me that you need to understand that you appear to have extremely low outgoings, especially compared to someone with dependents and with a realistic modern mortgage to pay. In actual fact, in terms of real disposable income, you are probably more "rich" (by your own definition) than many £43k plus earners.

+1 (in all honesty)

i'm guessing you're the kinda person who if you owned a car, it'd have heated wing mirrors.

hahahaha my mortgage alone is nearly £1k

I'm so rich!

all this thread shows is that no one seems to think they are well off except some of those who earn less than those who earn more.

My mortgage is about that DS and i bought 1 year ago

£13 for life insurance, buildings and contents, and only a £300 mortgage.

Who are you? Stig of the Dump??

TJ - so what are you going to do for a pension?

[i]being content to live in a one bed flat the flat now would cost maybe £700 a month[/i]

I suspect if you had 2 children your contentment would be somewhat short lived.

I admit I live in one of the most expensive areas for housing in the country (Brighton) - as per my earlier post, the average price for a 3 bed semi is £330k. We were paying nearly £2k/month mortage at one point when rates were higher.

Edit: [i]Eh? I receive nothing from the state. No benfits at all[/i]

but you'll be expecting my children to pay for your pension and health care when you;re old 😉

Boarding bob - I do consider myself rich as I know families that live on less

Our household income is 6 figures and I certainly don't consider ourselves to be rich.

That's the great thing about opinions though. They're all different. It would be a boring world otherwise.

Ooh and no pension payment listed, that's alright though because you can scrounge off the state from the tax and NI contributions you don't pay.

HIPPY!

I don't have any life insurance. £13 month bricks and mortar. 240 pa contents

How did this turn into a thread about TJ?

Its what folks do he says something that is relatively true but in outlandish terms and folk attack him. He does not back down and 8 pages later STW close the thread
40 k is a high wage for the UK- simple stats- whatever people wish to say about TJ and his lifestyle choices and buys more than less money say the average.
of course other factors come into play but the more money you have the more you can buy...you may buy for you or you and your partner and kids but if you had less you would buy less whatever the number- not exactly worthy of debate as it is blindingly obviously true

true bob but some are still wrong 😉
You are rich you have just got used to it which if this thread is anything to go by seems to happen to everyone with a bit of money [ that is not meant as a personal dig it is just an observation]

all this thread shows is that no one seems to think they are well off except some of those who earn less than those who earn more.

I think we're well off... oh hang on, we do earn rather less than a lot (most?) on here, so I think you covered us?

Our household income is 6 figures and I certainly don't consider ourselves to be rich.

I think most people would consider you to be.

What an unusual STW thread?

I think most people would consider you to be.

Bah, didn't want to agree with you aracer, but here I might just have to...

I love the talk of life insurance... The last quote I had started off at £37 a month for both of us (i.e. single payment for two people), but that jumped to over £150 a month when they found out I was in the TA. Even then they were refusing to cover me if I got mobilised in the next six months.

So, as it stands now, the only people which will give me a sensible* quote are PAX, and even that is expensive.

*sensible denotes expensive, but less expensive than the other insurers.

What an unusual STW thread?

What an unusual STW thread?

Not when you've been here the best part of 10 years.

It varies across the land but the average repayment cost (according to mortgagesorter et al) is close to £800 per month. So a nearly £1k repayment makes me only just above average.

upper echelons me

What an unusual STW thread?

I believe that something like the top 10% of threads on STW are like this. Elite threads, if you will.