[Closed] Higher rate tax payers to lose child benefits

it can be reduced to an absurdity [reductio ad absurdum]

I'm well aware of the name of the logical fallacy you used. A vaild method of reasoning when applied to pure logic (e.g. mathematics) yes, but not in this case.

Your argument is weak not mine

My argument is that inequities exist in life some are man made some are innate and relatively wealthy people (of which I am one) whining about the loss of a privilige is frankly tiresome.

Edit: Personally I would class the arguments that you put forward as wrong rather than simply unfair.

spacemonkey - Member

"Nope - it makes you rich regardless of your circumstances.

You've spouted some crap in the past TJ, but you're not getting so far off the mark.

so being in the richest 10% of the population does not make you rich?

come on then - lets see your monthly budget.

The reverse happened to me when I got my first job after Uni. Got a pay rise to £14,100, which was exactly £101 higher than the threshold to start repaying my student loads. Awesome. For the sake of a few hundred more a year (gross), I was 90 quid a month (net) worse off.

This is why the newer Student Loan repayment system is much fairier. It used to be all or nothing once you were over a set amount, now it's 9% of what you earn over a set amount.

I like to think of myself as part of the elite, but I wouldn't say I was wealthy, or indeed rich.

Still, it feels a little Tory to moan about losing child benefits if you're earning twice the national average.

Still, it feels a little Tory to moan about losing child benefits if you're earning twice the national average.

Yet the tories are the ones proposing to remove it, this coupled with your statement will cause the internet to go recursive 😯

This year I changed job and got a healthy pay rise which lifted has apparently lifted me into the wealthy (perhaps elite) category. Strange because I don't feel any wealthier than last year and my other half is a care worker which brings our income into pretty average not wealthy territory.

Back to the original question - I think it is fair that child benefits stop somewhere but perhaps unfair that it kicks in at exactly the higher tax rate level as so may other things do too so it's effectively a big hit.

This is why the newer Student Loan repayment system is much fairier. It used to be all or nothing once you were over a set amount, now it's 9% of what you earn over a set amount.

That seems massively complicated, sure an "all or nothing" flag would be fairer?

you should post more often on here

I'll try.

Jeez - even those nominally on the same side of the argument as TJ telling him to stop arguing, and still he continues.

[i]and still he continues.[/i]

it's like an ear worm for him - he needs a mental jolt to once he's stuck in argue mode.

If I'm in the rich elite TJ is in the intellectual opposite (whataver that is - I don't consider myself to be in the intellectual elite 😉 ).

Can't we get TeeJ a job with McMoonter? I imagine he needs his axes sharpening regularly.

so being in the richest 10% of the population does not make you rich?

🙂

I still would like to see the monthly budget from someone struggling to make ends meet on £40 000 pa.

TSY - you want me to be allowed near sharp objects?

That seems massively complicated, sure an "all or nothing" flag would be fairer?

Can I take it that using such a nonsensical analogy means you're admitting your argument is rubbish?

TJ its only because we assume you are as clumsy with tools as you are with language 😉

yes TJ let's see your £10k a year budget. Mortgage? no, you probably don't have one. Council tax? no, you don't qualify. School dinners? no, yours are FREE. Nursey fees? no, your are state funded.

I could go on but I've already fed this troll too much.

TandemJeremy - Member
TSY - you want me to be allowed near sharp objects?

Just the once would do it.

I'm fine with this (in principle). I was amazed when I found out that we got child benefit when my lad was born. I'm doing ok financially, so I think it's ridiculous that someone in my situation is entitled to any benefits whatsoever - and generally speaking I'm a pro-welfare pinko commie lefty type. I'm sure the gov't will completely stuff up the implementation though, as per usual.

I still would like to see the monthly budget from someone struggling to make ends meet on £40 000 pa.

so being in the richest 10% of the population does not make you rich?

Why do you define the top 10% as "rich"

Why not 15% or 20%?

And it's vitally important to remember that you're talking about [b]your[/b] definition, which doesn't make it set in stone by the way.

You'd do well to remember that.

I'm sure the gov't will completely stuff up the implementation though, as per usual.

Though they're a lot less likely to stuff up something so simple - which is kind of the point.

did you say something earlier about gross abuse of the english language DS

How's your petard 😉

TandemJeremy - Member

I still would like to see the monthly budget from someone struggling to make ends meet on £40 000 pa.

I imagine it contains a whole lot of stupid.

What we need on STW is a facility to split threads. I'd quite happily volunteer to go through this one and flag the ones to go in the "does earning more than £40k make you rich?" thread.

Everyone on here could do with watching [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018grzr ]this[/url] from the recent BBC Money series. It shows how a £40k income households are far from all the same. From a couple with triplets to wealthy inhereted middleclass and lots inbetween.
Well worth watching by people on both sides of this argument.

I think thats a given lifer 🙂

And it's vitally important to remember that you're talking about your definition, which doesn't make it set in stone by the way

Nay, nay and thrice nay! He hath spoken, and the word was made FACT!

Well worth watching by people on both sides of this argument.

Both sides of which argument? The one about whether earning £40k makes you rich? Some of us on this thread couldn't care less about that and are trying to stick to the original topic.

[b]D[/b][s]d[/s]id you say something earlier about gross abuse of the english language DS[b]?[/b]

cheers_drive I will watch it [ not sure anyone is saying they are all the same tbh] but the point is probably would they all be worse off if they had less ,say the average ..its a no brainer of a question obviously- you may not like the messenger TJ but his point is blindingly obvious..if you disagree just have less money and be wealthier

EDIt: Why thanks DS how kind of you to let me play to my strengths and discuss language and grammar 😥

"I still would like to see the monthly budget from someone struggling to make ends meet on £40 000 pa."

Who above has said they are struggling on £40k?

All I have said is that people earning over £40k are just as entitled to get aggreived about removal of tax benefits as any one else.

"Do they work harder than those earning less?"

I can only comment for our houselhold - Yes Mrs FD works her arse off for it, has to be extremely highly qualified and works 60-80 hours per week. I earn less than £40k, above average qualified (degree) and do average hours.

Can we see TJ's budgets for his chosen lifestyle ands secure job. Then add the cost of 3 kids over 20 years? 😉

I'd love to see TJ's monthly budget so I can know where I'm going wrong

This year my salary is exactly the same as last year, which makes me poorer in real terms. My wife is now on statutory maternity pay and we have a new baby to support. Our household income is half what it was 12 months ago, yet I can't say we're struggling. I really do wonder what we were wasting our money on.

The idea that those who dont need child benefit shouldnt get it is fair enough, the proposed application of that is utter nonsense though.

SBZ speaks sense shoka

You want my monthly budget?

£500 a month is put aside to pay my accommodation food and bills - Mrs TJ does the same - so thats £1000 per month for all living expenses for two of us. Anything else we spend is pure fripperies. Beer, going out, holidays etc.

All I have said is that people earning over £40k are just as entitled to get aggreived about removal of tax benefits as any one else.

Really? So not being able to afford a new Xbox game is directly equivalent to not being able to afford to turn the heating on?

the proposed application of that is utter nonsense though.

You mean the proposed implementation which is a lot cheaper than any alternative?

Breakdown of:
Mortgage:
Council tax:
Utility bills:
Food:
Transport costs:
Clothes:
Insurances:
Etc...
C'mon TJ.

hahahaha my mortgage alone is nearly £1k

I'm so rich!

FWIW. we're not in that top 10% and I consider us to be pretty well off. Did I ever mention that we qualify for Child Tax Credits but haven't taken them up because we think there are folk more needy than us?

If you get offered a pay rise that takes you into higher rate tax, and are in receipt of benefits that will be cut then as long as the rise covers the lost benefits you are directly helping the country pay it's deficit, what's not to like?

If you end up with a bit more then be grateful, there are plenty of people out there with a lot less you than you.

So anyway...do those over £40k need the NHS and free education for their kids? Nah, the rich elite should pay for that themselves.

Rich is probably more about assets than income.