It just really makes me laugh what people see as essentials.
Just think on this a moment. 30 years since I left my parents house I have never bought any furniture new. I have never bought any crockery and cutlery new.
It makes me laugh that you don't think we need a banking system and that said banking system needs people to dress smartly.
It makes me laugh that you are happy that people don't have jobs. We need manufacturing, like sofas and crockery and bicycles and clothes etc, so that we can have an economy and pay taxes that ultimately provide us with public health.
What a mess the country would be in if we all lived like you, TJ.
"It just really makes me laugh what people see as essentials.
Just think on this a moment. 30 years since I left my parents house I have never bought any furniture new. I have never bought any crockery and cutlery new. I have never bought a bike new nor any expensive components new (ignoring the flat we rent out which is my pension) I have bought one new cooker, one new fridge, one new freezer, two new washing machines two new computers. My telly is more than 20 years old."
and your point is?
Broken again? I want my money back!!! 👿
Have we mentioned the fact that higher rate tax payers benefit more than lower rate payers when it comes to pensions tax relief, child care vouchers or bike to work schemes?
Did I read something about a 2nd property back there? Nah, eyes must be playing tricks on me... 😆
The not buying new is at least in part about 2 things - one is living within my means and the other is reducing carbon footprint.
I could have spent a lot more on consumer goods - I have had the money but i prefer to send it on beer and holidays and eating out. I do not measure my success by the stuff i own but by the fun I have
ransos - Member
Yunki - ever wondered why?
So this is 6 pages and growing - how many pages would it have been if the title was - high rate tax payers to receive child benefits?Do you think that there would be so much bickering if the messenger was anyone other than TJ?
Which mod keeps the quotes, questions of the year files?
Just realised that mtb has become a sport exclusively for the rich. Took my bike in for first service for (ahem) a few years this morning. The list of immediate issues led to an eye-watering bill. Overtaking triathlon as an elitist sport.
and your point is?
That you is a bit sanctimonious.
Don - I thought you were interested in reducing co2 footprint. consuming less is the only way.
TJ is not complaining and does not want your sympathy so why have you done this - Jessus he gets some stick on here
I'd suggest (and have in the past) that he gets unfairly treated just because of who he is, but more recently I've come to the conclusion that it's more to do with how he says what he says. A shame, as a lot of the time he gets stick for saying things which are right in the wrong way.
casa del TJ?
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MTB is a sport now?teamhurtmore - Member
Just realised that mtb has become a sport exclusively for the rich. Took my bike in for first service for (ahem) a few years this morning. The list of immediate issues led to an eye-watering bill. Overtaking triathlon as an elitist sport.
Tfl - home of the wealthy elite. How society has changed?
They are opening a new club in Pall Mall to accommodate their members.
Don - I thought you were interested in reducing co2 footprint. [b]consuming less is the only way[/b].
WTF has that got to do with the discussion?
Also show me where I have said that.
Pretty much Kimbers 🙂
[i]consuming less is the only way. [/i]
unless it's holidays, beer or eating out, obviously 😉
Don - you slag me off for not consuming yet you don't seem to grasp that reducing consumption is the only way to reduce CO2 footprint significantly
A shame, as a lot of the time he gets stick for saying things which are right in the wrong way.
+1, if he had dropped the 'elite' from the original remark how different this thread would have turned out.
Not complaining though, in fact keep it up, i've got half an hour before i finnish for the weekend. 🙂
WTF has that got to do with the discussion?
WTF has keeping the capitalist boom going got to do with the discussion?
right - that more than my quota of stupid argument used up for the day.
Still no budgets from the struggling on £40 000 a year posse. a couple of mentions of expensive big houses ad expensive childcare but thats it.
Interesting to see how people can convince themselves that because they don't feel rich they are not rich despite being in the richest 10% of the population
"Have we mentioned the fact that higher rate tax payers benefit more than lower rate payers when it comes to pensions tax relief, child care vouchers or bike to work schemes?"
Your right we havent mentioned that one yet. Have we also mentioned that some one earning >£40k is probably paying 40% tax in the first place ?!?! Thats not exactly fair either is it....
"I do not measure my success by the stuff i own but by the fun I have"
Ah ok are we getting to the crux of it now... you beleive that rich people (>£40k +) are deeply unhappy and spend all their money on material objects because they are so rich they have nothing better to spend their money on 😆
ALL day? At least until midnight?TandemJeremy - Member
right - that more than my quota of stupid argument used up for the day.
druidh - MemberTandemJeremy - Member
right - that more than my quota of stupid argument used up for the day.ALL day? At least until midnight?
I'll try. feel free to remind me 🙂
TJ - I gave you some idea on what I spend each month on housing and food?
yes you did - thanks.
Don - you slag me off for not consuming yet you don't seem to grasp that reducing consumption is the only way to reduce CO2 footprint significantly
Where have I slagged you off?
I have disagreed on a point of need and that you seem to think that you can apply your needs across the board as a valid argument. We know historically that disagreements can be seen as personal attacks and a form of bullying.
Reducing consumption is one way of reducing CO2 emission, but by no means the only way, killing half the population is another.
You appear to have missed the bit where I said your lifestyle is admirable but life moves on and forward.
Unnecessary consumption is a waste but there is also a necessary level of consumption for economies to grow and to sustain life. I need to use resources to manufacture things like double glazing, it is only the stupid that can not see the long term benefits of this or choose, quite selfishly imo, to live in buildings that are not environmentally friendly and hipocritically to criticise others.
Your right we havent mentioned that one yet. Have we also mentioned that some one earning >£40k is probably paying 40% tax in the first place ?!?! Thats not exactly fair either is it....
A better definition for TJ's 'Elite' would have been those earning >£40k and [i]not[/i] paying 40% tax...
Have we mentioned the fact that higher rate tax payers benefit more than lower rate payers when it comes to pensions tax relief, child care vouchers or bike to work schemes?
OK, fair point, though the pensions tax relief has now been capped. Child care vouchers now don't apply for me, and if you think the tax I can save on a £1000 bike somehow offsets the tax I paid last year, you've been at the crack pipe.
TandemJeremy - Member
right - that more than my quota of stupid argument used up for the day.Still no budgets from the struggling on £40 000 a year posse. a couple of mentions of expensive big houses ad expensive childcare but thats it.
Interesting to see how people can convince themselves that because they don't feel rich they are not rich despite being in the richest 10% of the population
I see you've not read my post about individual vs household income and cost of living in different places. Don't take the argument high ground when your point is so simplistic.
It just really makes me laugh what people see as essentials.
Just think on this a moment. 30 years since I left my parents house I have never bought any furniture new. I have never bought any crockery and cutlery new. I have never bought a bike new nor any expensive components new (ignoring the flat we rent out which is my pension) I have bought one new cooker, one new fridge, one new freezer, two new washing machines two new computers. My telly is more than 20 years old.
That just makes you sound like a tramp.
Who buys second hand cutlery 😕
I do not measure my success by the stuff i own but by the fun I have
Arguing on the Internet must be a ball then. You must be in the top 10% in the country at that, surely? Highly successful.
That just makes you sound like a tramp.Who buys second hand cutlery
People who can't afford new cutlery, or those who chose to spend their money on things other than cutlery?
(Or, those who appreciate antique cutlery like CFH)
Why does it make TJ sound like a tramp? Does him buying second-haynd cutlery give him a gruff voice brought on by sleeping rough and developing chest infections etc, and ravaged by alcohol use?
I've never bought new cutlery; I just nick all mine from restaurants and that, piece by piece.
I eat with antique cutlery. I also bought a house complete with contents. as a good green I do not throw things away while they still work
I was simply trying to show that "essentials" is a construct not an absolute.
Who buys second hand cutlery
Me. I bought some lovely silver rat tail stuff from a rather lovely little antiques market in Salisbury only the other day. I've also got a wonderful set of silver coffee spoons from the same place! On Catherine Street, for those who know it.
OK, this has given me something to think about to be honest. I'm not a higher rate taxpayer but I know I could budget better. We have a comfortable lifestyle but there's no doubt it was a lot more comfortable pre-kids. We do get certain benefits and tax credits and they do add up. Without them we'd certainly be a lot worse off for having kids, to the point where money might have been a reason to not have them in the first place. That would be a great shame.
I admire TJ for coming on here and telling us his monthly budget. However I do think it is largely irrelevant since we are talking about child benefits. I know this sounds a bit tired, but comparing the budget of a childless couple to one with children is a bit fruitless.
OMG - CFH and I share a taste in cutlery 😯
TandemJeremy - Member[i]druidh - Member
TandemJeremy - Member
right - that more than my quota of stupid argument used up for the day.ALL day? At least until midnight? [/i]
I'll try
You failed.
Who buys second hand cutlery
I inherited mine does that count? Silver / family crest. Obviously don't use it as can't be bothered to clean it.
CFH - difference between "stupid argument" and explaining a point - tho if I had seen your post first it explains the same point so mine would not have been needed
People who can't afford new cutlery, or those who chose to spend their money on things other than cutlery?I've never bought new cutlery; I just nick all mine from restaurants and that, piece by piece.
Perhaps if people bought their cutlery instead of nicking it, we'd have more paid employment and be less dependant on the state for handouts. The general standard of living would increase resulting in a higher level of education which would make us better informed in our buying decisions leading to a better and more fulfilling life for everyone. 😀
I usually make a point of avoiding these threads but I genuinely think I've missed something here. This doesn't stack up at all.
I understood £40k to be the average household income according to some recent documentary or other. (i.e. Net income, not Gross salary)
On that basis, £43k Gross to a single earner has got to fall a long way short of that average, yet would be the cliff-edge-esque cut-off at which elligibility ceased.
Eh!
Who buys second hand cutlery
Not me. The set I bought new (from Argos 😉 ) 22 years ago is still doing me just fine.
Actually now I think about it, I do have some s/h stuff I inherited.
Obviously don't use it as can't be bothered to clean it.
Do you use disposable plates as well? 🙂
mudshark - was that included in the inheritance tax charge? As you know we are all entitled to a bit of that. Any spare forks?
Oh the irony of someone with two properties claiming they aren't wealthy.
randomjeremy - MemberOh the irony of someone with two properties claiming they aren't wealthy.
I never claimed I was not wealthy
I know this was a few pages back but earning £40,000 does not make your family the rich elite. In fact according to this from the BBC in November 2011 (with its source the ONS) the AVERAGE household income is £40,000.
So is the average person the rich elite!?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15197860 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15197860[/url]
What I'd quite like, is a set of the Arne Jacobsen 'Flatware' cutlery designed by Arne Jacobsen which were used in the film [i]2001: A Space Odyssey[/i].
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Left and Right-Handed spoons:
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Anyone else got any fave cutlery?
TBH I will admit that this thread has made me think a bit about how much we spend / waste in the mogrim household - although there's no way I consider myself to be rich/elite (at least financially) I'm happy to admit that I'm not poor, and that a little more careful budgeting would probably be a good thing...
Still, and without publishing my own data, as an example of why I don't consider 40,000 to be that high a salary I've worked out roughly what living in a fairly average neighbourhood in the south would cost - where I've no idea what the figure is I've used TJ's numbers:
Mortgage: £1320 (Semi in Croydon, 30yrs @ 4.5%)
Council tax:£110
Utility bills: variable - maybe £120
Food: dunno - maybe £200 (seems optimistic, with a couple a kids anyway)
Transport costs: car 314 (from the car running costs thread - the OP's diesel Astra)
Clothes: 50 (I'm assuming a couple of growing kids here)
Insurances: £13pcm
Total = 2127pcm = 25524 pa
40,000 = 26800 after tax (aprox., assume 33% tax).
Giving a disposable income of just over a 100gbp/month. Certainly not poor, but hardly rich either.
Anyone else got any fave cutlery?
This is quite fun, not sure how practical though:
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In fact according to this from the BBC in November 2011 (with its source the ONS) the AVERAGE household income is £40,000.So is the average person the rich elite!?
It appears the average person can afford to impulse buy cars.
...but not 2012 mtbs?
Mogrim, you've not covered holidays, Christmas presents, school dinners, judo clubs for the kids....all the stuff that's not essential, but without which you'd feel you were missing out.
And £200/month for food, for a family of 4? A giraffe is what you're having.
Mogrim, you've not covered holidays, Christmas presents, school dinners, judo clubs for the kids....all the stuff that's not essential, but without which you'd feel you were missing out.
Such fripperies are no longer accepted in our Brave New World. Sorry! (Though I completely agree with you...)
And £200/month for food, for a family of 4? A giraffe is what you're having.
Like I said, there are some things I have no idea of the cost of (I don't live in the UK!) Out of interest, what would be a reasonable budget for food?
crispo - Member
I know this was a few pages back but earning £40,000 does not make your family the rich elite. In fact according to this from the BBC in November 2011 (with its source the ONS) the AVERAGE household income is £40,000.So is the average person the rich elite!?
ave household with two adults working
Actually to be honest, a lot of cutlery you get these days is not all that good quality, lots of cheap crap, less decent Sheffield/Solingen steel stuffs. Forks and knives that bend under slight pressure. Poor quality steel.
You're probbly better off buying second haynd stuffs really.
If anyone's flying Air Canada soon, can you nick me a set please?
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I think I might go to the V+A this afternoon.
[b]randonjeremy[/b]
I don't have kids but this seems really unfair to me; a family with two parents earning £42k each qualify for benefit, but a family with one parent earning £43k don't qualify (even if the other parent doesn't earn anything) - are you suddenly rich if you earn £43k a year?
A good question if I may say so. Firstly, it's hard to say that child benefit should not be means tested - in my view it clearly should be.
However there are a few trailers. All the money saved by not paying child benefit to the higher rate tax payers should be allocated to those on lower incomes. Then we have the example above of one parent on £43k s a couple who earn £84k between them, that is a much broader flaw in the tax system. it's deliberately like that to raise the most amount of money.
Also to all the posters who refer to the "fact" that the median income is around £25k - that just demonstrates the issue with over simple statistics because that calculation includes all the low paid and effectively part-time jobs which people like students do and of course it doesn;t take into account the "jobs for cash" economy. The average (or median or any other measure) household income for a family is much higher than £25k, in fact in a lot of places in the UK it's more than double that not least as often both parents are working.
PS I'm loving the cutlery 🙂
Food for a family of 4, or maybe more accurately a weekly supermarket shop (inc cleaning stuff, bog roll, whatever) probably about £100 a week.
Food for a family of 4, or maybe more accurately a weekly supermarket shop (inc cleaning stuff, bog roll, whatever) probably about £100 a week.
Sounds about right. Our main shop's less than that, but we get extras through the week too.
Aldi: £60
Morrisons: £80
Asda: £80
Sainsburys: £100
Food for a family of 4, or maybe more accurately a weekly supermarket shop (inc cleaning stuff, bog roll, whatever) probably about £100 a week.
Morgin - I think a family shop of £100 a week is pretty tough to keep to, you have to be canny to keep it that low. Also at 40k your income net of taxes is greater than 28k I think.
I didn't make it past the first page of today's squabble, but I do like the idea that the top 10% equates to elite.
Using the metric and looking at the amount of people who can ride bicycles in this country, well I could easily beat 90% of them.
Cool! I'm now officially an elite cyclist!
301!
following the 10% rule i'm proud to say i'm an elite looking chap.
*swooons at self*
I think a family shop of £100 a week is pretty tough to keep to, you have to be canny to keep it that low.
Ours is close to that - but that includes alcohol and plenty of "finest" rather than "value". Wouldn't be at all difficult to spend a lot less than that.
30[s]0[/s]1!
FTFY
This is quite fun, not sure how practical though:
Playing fast and loose with the term "fun" !
Just the usual way of conducting politics these days - Overstate the changes/cutbacks - wait for the media scrum/public outcry...announce you will listen to said parties concerns...scale back the changes/cuts to what you wanted all along, everyone sighs with relief that they are being listened to and conveniently forget that now thousands miss out on Child Benefit...If you dont realise this happens your not really understanding politics at all.
Do i disagree that above a certain limit CHB should be cut off ? No - it makes sense and saves money.
We'd miss the child benefit if it stopped, we'd have to find a bit more from somewhere else to pay the school fees.
I haven't read all the responses.
I don't have a fundamental problem with them shaking up Child Benefit so it is only paid to those with the greatest need. Depending which tax year they are using - I may loose out personally, but whilst I am certainly not rich I know I am better off than many.
I don't even mind the definition that a single parent earning £43k per annum [a take home pay of roughly 31k per annum] is considered not to need it.
I do object to the fact that their next door neighbours both earning £40k each (family income of £80k, with two personal tax allowances deducted from it meaning a take home pay of roughly 60k per annum) will still be entitled to the benefit. That probably seems even more wrong to his neighbour where one parent earns £80k and takes home just 53k...
It could certainly disincentivise someone just below the threshold from aspiring to a pay rise - which strikes me as a very non tory thing to do. A pay rise of a hundred pounds could cost some people a thousand pounds or more. I appreciate that sort of effect may have been happening at the bottom of the pay scale for some time, but have we not learned from that - the effect is people will just avoid getting into that situation (or as the early posts suggest engineer their pension to keep them the right side of the rules) and cream off the government for all they can.
miketually - Member
Have we mentioned the fact that higher rate tax payers benefit more than lower rate payers when it comes to pensions tax relief, child care vouchers or bike to work schemes?
Not with child care vouchers - they revised the rules to get rid of that anomaly.
Ha well not only am I elite but by the time this comes in my kids will be above the age limit so I would have already had all the money to spend on my fois gras and caviar. Ha Ha Ha Ha!
[i]We'd miss the child benefit if it stopped, we'd have to find a bit more from somewhere else to pay the school fees. [/i]
🙂
Us too.
But tbh as we are both self-employed we can make sure that we earn just below whatever the right 'amount' is, it'd be stupid to do anything different.
How many families are there with a household income of 80k with neither partner earning over the higher tax threshold?
The problem is that getting something 'means tested' or some tapering relief for CB means a whole raft of numpties in a building, an IT system delivered late for 5x the original proposed cost etc. etc. and probably will cost more to implement than the cost of just giving CB to everyone.
I'd miss the £81 a month, but I'd live. As long as it isn't given to the local sink estate to enable Shazzer to have more children then I'd be happy.
For those people who earn just over the £44k threshold, pay more into your pension to reduce your taxable income to just below the threshold. You will then remain entitled to child benefit and get full rate tax relief on your additional pension contribution. Double bubble.
Just filling out the child benefit forms and its what I shall be doing if this goes ahead...
Have we also mentioned that some one earning >£40k is probably paying 40% tax in the first place ?!?!
They're paying 40% tax on earnings in excess of the higher rate threshold. For most people, this will be very little extra tax.
Do you use disposable plates as well?
Well you can't just put silver cutlery in the dish washer you know.
child care vouchers - not worth my wife working for more than 2 days as she doesn't earn enough and the vouchers (1 from each of us) only cover 2 days. Seems a shame, if all childcare was tax deductible we could justify her working more so she'd pay more tax and a childcare provider would earn more money and so pay tax as well.
I can't be bothered reading all this. I'm sure its predictable enough. All I'm interested in is the outcome
So... are we having a glorious revolution? And will everyone earning the arbitrary figure we've decided on - £40 grand - end up with there heads on spikes?
I can take it anyone in possession of heated wing mirrors will be the first with their backs against the wall?! That's real justice!
No binners - its even more arbitrary than that. I am in charge and I decide who ends up with their heads on spikes
I don't know if anyone (even the government) know that - since I don't think they have anyway of "joining" my tax records with my wifes (which then leads to a question of how they will police the Child Benefit claim?).How many families are there with a household income of 80k with neither partner earning over the higher tax threshold?
However whilst 80k is the extreme any couple with children earning a combined 43-86k where both are below the tax threshold are the "winners" in this. There will be plenty of professionals with kids who fall into that category - teachers, nurses, designers, programmers, scientists...
Jambo - jam bo - Member
For those people who earn just over the £44k threshold, pay more into your pension to reduce your taxable income to just below the threshold. You will then remain entitled to child benefit and get full rate tax relief on your additional pension contribution. Double bubble.
Mmm, but the threshold is falling, and inflation is rising so unless you are in the fortunate position of being consistently cash positive every month you might find that actually you need that money to maintain the standard of living you want for your family. If you have enough surplus cash that it really doesn't matter then screwing the system for that last £1k then you are almost as much a parasite on society as the benefit scroungers who aren't looking for work etc.
Only read the first two pages and not all the random ramblings, but hey I shall now regard myself as a part of the 'rich elite'.
I drive around in a 15yr old battered 206 and live in a tiny 2 bed terrace in a rough area with a mortgage 3.5 times my salary, and I'm currently overdrawn. How the hell do the "poor" survive???!?
by nicking the rich peoples stuff?