[Closed] Hi fi - "clean" mains

Some capacitors.

These are what is normally used for decoupling power rails. Your equipment will already have loads, but you can add more in a box if you like and pay 1. not very much if you do it yourself; 2. loads if you want someone else to do it for you.

Wind up, surely?

Unless your mains comes in on a ley line forget it.
Myself, I use batteries charged by solar panels with cold filtered sunlight.

More to it than that surely...I know what they do. It's about cutting out interference etc from the mains itself and introduced by cheapo PSUs on your other eqpt?

If you disagree, what do you suggest? A mix of types an sizes?

Easiest way is to just be sure the loop it's on isn't the same as anything with a high drain or a motor in it. Easiest way is to look at the fuse board, and make sure nothing like that is pluged into the same loop as the hi-fi, and preferably not even in the same phase if possible(assuming your house has 3 phase electrics).

And yes, a noisy mains will ruin a good hi-fi's sound.

Al what equipment do you have?

Please guys, have you even tried listening to decent power supplies on your equipment?

A sh Valhalla board (£50 to me a decade ago) transformed my TD160.

Amused at the thought of someone soldering caps across the mains.

In my flat there's one light switch that when used makes my PC speakers go 'pop'. Would a mains conditioner stop that or is the flat just really badly wired?

Mike

hot-rodded TD160 - valhalla, rewired RB300, (but knackered cartridge), new subchassis & wall mounted support
DNM Start pre-amp
Crimson monobloks
Rega Kytes, soon to be replace by cynic-al floorstanders.

Can SFb et al dullards please stay away

I hope you're not discriminating against dullards ? Don't we have a right to unspiky voltages too ?

we all of course know that such devices CAN NOT POSSIBLY MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE

this is of course quite wrong as it will enrich the people selling mains cleaners

BTW, plenty of interesting reading here, including some stuff about cables 😆 (not sure if there's anything about mains conditioning though):

http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm

Can SFb et al dullards please stay away

I hope you're not discriminating against dullards ? Don't we have a right to unspiky voltages too ?

we all of course know that such devices CAN NOT POSSIBLY MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE

this is of course quite wrong as it will enrich the people selling mains cleaners

If you have top notch kit a clean mains supply is worth it IMO, and it's relatively cheap compared to a lot of other hi-fi upgrades.

you'll trust the guys who make your kit to convert digital to analogue, take in low level analogue from phono stages, and amplify them in a manner you find appealing to your ears, but you won't trust them to rectify the mains properly?
okthen....

http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p4.htm#power

EDIT: actually that link has nothing to do with mains filtering, but he does have this to say:

"Typical filters will use Metal Oxide Varistors (MOVs) to cut off any high voltage spikes, and a capacitor and inductor network to filter out anything that is not at the mains frequency.

A true 50Hz (or 60Hz) tuned filter will be a large unit indeed, so most line filters only work at frequencies above a few kHz. This is generally enough to get rid of most interference, since a well designed power supply should be able to filter out the majority of noise from the mains."

Del - Member
you'll trust the guys who make your kit to convert digital to analogue, take in low level analogue from phono stages, and amplify them in a manner you find appealing to your ears, but you won't trust them to rectify the mains properly?
okthen....

I think you need to change your name al, perhaps gullible_al would be appropriate.

perhaps gullible_al would be appropriate

I was just thinking that :o) I think the idea is that he's cynical about anything not directly observable, which is a respectable stance (at least, to a dullard)

OK you can be "rich-does-not-trust-own-ears"

FFS.

Do you guys actually listen to components in systems or just do engineering degrees?

I worked in hi fi manufacturing, design and retail. Sorry, but you are just talking nonce-sense!

Out of interest, how many of those Hi-Fi chappies ever get their hearing tested, y'know, just to make sure they're not throwing money away?

...it's not that difficult to see how religion gets going; compared to the Hi-Fi world, it's all far more plausible.

Do you guys actually listen to components in systems or just do engineering degrees?

I only ever listen to music in this context. Listening to the sound of the sound would be entirely beside the point.

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbycusis [/url]

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil [/url]

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley [/url]

Have you ever listened to this stuff or do you just sit around being "clever"?

I'm wondering whether a UPS would help, me. Summik like [url= http://www.micomonline.co.uk/products.asp?partno=15601&go ]this?[/url]

[i]Have you ever listened to this stuff or do you just sit around being "clever"? [/i]

It's a pretty valid question though. Take a hi-fi amp company that you respect and ask yourself why would the designer not incorporate suitable mains filtering?
The only two reasons I can think of are cost or incompotence. Now filtering (in the grand scheme of things) isn't that costly, certainly not when compared to big transformers, so that would leave incompotence?

Take a hi-fi amp company that you respect and ask yourself why would the designer not incorporate suitable mains filtering?

with respect, thought experiments are even more far fetched than subjectivism...

you only have to handle many common products of design to realise that common sense or the needs and abilities of the intended users have not figrred much in the process 🙁

"Take a hi-fi amp company that you respect and ask yourself why would the designer not incorporate suitable mains filtering?"

Many do including Sony,panasonic and LG on their plasma displays as well

>ask yourself why would the designer not incorporate suitable mains filtering?

Judging by the interconnect thread, some people think it isn't so much designed as pulled out of a virgin's chuff 😉

Seriously - you could add a 'mains conditioner' but all it'll do is suppress typically non-periodic transient/switching noise*, and maybe some high frequency noise (tho' your amp supply ought to do that anyway). If that's what you're after then that ought to be fairly cheaply obtainable - I'd guess significantly more than 30 quid and you're being ripped off or into the realm of rapidly diminishing returns.

*actually, transient noise *is* high frequency by its nature, or more accurately, wide-band, but some of the spikiness may get through the amp psu - depends on how the amp's been designed and how spikey the spikiness is.

A UPS generates 50Hz ac from a dc supply - in doing that it'll generate some low level periodic noise (tho' not necessarily audible) - you'll get less supply glitchiness but you equally may get most of the way with a simple mains filter.

If you've got anything particularly noisy on the mains, it'd make as much sense to find whatever it is and deal with that (at a guess appliance motors, switches, dimmers).

>Amused at the thought of someone soldering caps across the mains
Cue 'what caps for house destruction or general messiness ?' thread 😉

Jond, how do UPS generate the 50Hz AC from the DC? If there's some switching in there you could get some audio frequency noise at the switching point. They would possibly filter this out, but I imagine in a lot of cases these products will be built down to a cost.

Well, no. I'm not going to comment. No no no no no... 🙄

Lo' Ads - offhand I dunno - I reserve the right to talk b*llocks 😉

But if you built it as a class D amp - ie using pwm - then you can choose your sample rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier#Class_D
and it's probably pretty efficient.

Aha:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation
In fact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverter_(electrical)#Circuit_description
(including the smelly 'lob a square wave in the general direction of a transformer !).

I guess there's no reason you couldn't just use something like a wien bridge and a couple of transistors +centre-tapped transformer to be realtively linear, but the efficiency wouldn't be very good.

>Well, no. I'm not going to comment. No no no no no...

😉

I'm not sure you care about efficiency, just the noise spectrum from all the switch crap going on. Oh yeah, don't talk to me about PWM. I'm just doing a big project on motor control. PWM is OK though as I'm generallly a 0's and 1's guy 😉

I'm just doing a big project on motor control. PWM is OK though as I'm generallly a 0's and 1's guy

I sympathise. I had to design a DSP motor controller for a 1kw ac servo motor a few years back. That used to shit me up big time each time there was a fault in the code 🙂

I'm just doing a big project on motor control. PWM is OK though as I'm generallly a 0's and 1's guy

and it'll sound like shit 🙁

In no way relevant to this thread, but for the motor control people:-

>I'm not sure you care about efficiency, just the noise spectrum from all the switch crap going on.

Agreed, to the extent that someone wants to run their amp off a UPS.
But a UPS is *normally* going to be designed for something that can't afford to be switched off (quickly, at least) and with a limited battery limit, so it'll be designed to maximise efficiency, rather than it's sinewave fidelity - hairchested's link is a a computer ups.
There's nothing stopping you designed something different if sinewave accuracy's what you're after, but that's not yer typical UPS.

>and it'll sound like shit

I think it's come on a long way - saw some figures on something recently and was surprised it was something less than 0.1% thd.

~0.01%:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1358802

(No, I'm not gonna get into an argument about 'it's not all thd') - this stuff's primarily aimed at being efficient - high power and compact/low dissipation, or portable)

Also, I wasn't refering to PWM being ok for hifi per se, I was refering to it being OK for me to get my head around. But then it's not uncommon for people to get the wrong end of the stick on an internet forum 🙂

Jon, have you actually listened to PWM with your own ears eh? I would have thought the low freq attenuation of your facial hair and standing waves created round your sandals would cause sufficient cross-coupling combobulation to affect both the highlights and soundstage. 😉

simonfbarnes - Member

Listening to the sound of the sound would be entirely beside the point.

Balls, for the first time ever I have to agree with SFB, ****, **** & **** 🙁

>and it'll sound like shit

I think it's come on a long way - saw some figures on something recently and was surprised it was something less than 0.1% thd.

I meant the motor :o)

I recall Clive Sinclair selling a PWM hifi amp back in about 1970 🙂

A bit OT but a few years ago I had a seperate spur for my hi-fi with round pin plugs installed. Cost ~£300, pretty cheap for a hi-fi upgrade. Happy enough (Linn / Naim set up)

>I meant the motor :o)

I thought you probably were 😉
Dunno if you remember Elektor magazine back in the 70s/80s, they couldn't seem to get past a half year without feeling obliged to lob in a class D amp !

Yer cheek git Ads 😉
I may have the
a) beard
b) CAMRA membership
c) recumbent
- but sandals really *are* a no-go zone !

In any case, anything will sounds like sh*t if you lob Pantera thru' it on 11 🙂

Thanks for the informative comments - I think I "get it" now.

SFB keep listening to the sound! I'll keep improving mine.

SFB keep listening to the sound!

I used the word [b]music[/b] intentionally! Sound is frequency, amplitude and phase, music is emotion and impact.

Some people use car batteries, apparently Rolls Royce ones are the best - well they would be right?!

apparently Rolls Royce ones are the best

...with the finest K-Y jelly on the terminals, none of that downmarket vaseline shite!

It's worth putting a supressor on a fridge or boiler if it's putting a big click through your speakers, all the rest of it is worthless IMHO.

Most interference is airbourne RF, not down the mains and almost every decent bit of kit has appropriate mains filtering built in.

My mobile and cordless phones are a nightmare with my hifi but mains has never been an issue, I think it's marketing guys, I really do.

Clearaudio/ Lavardin/ Audio Physic in case you wondered.

If you are using reference-level Hi Fidelity equipment that is designed to work to it's maximum ability by using a "clean" electricity supply, then it's better to make sure that it has exactly that, IME. A power supply box takes the spiky and uneven mains supply, smooths it to a regular wave form and then presents it to the equipment (CD player, Pre-amp etc).

Using equipment designed to run better with a Power Supply Unit without one, is like putting road slicks on a Mountain Bike.

What, so it performs better?

What, so it performs better?

Don't understand your question. How would a Mountain Bike with slicks on "perform better"?

that is designed to work to it's maximum ability by using a "clean" electricity supply,

also known as 'broken'
coming soon:
1) cars without steering or suspension designed for optimal straight, flat roads
2) keyboards with no backspace or delete keys for error-free typists
3) external bottom brackets for mud free environments

Serious answer - top marks to the bloke above who recommended an UPS.
We have an NMR instrument in our labs which uses a lot of high spec amplifiers and is particularly fussy about its mains supply. An UPS was recommended by the manufacturer to do the job.

Am I the only person to spot the irony of someone called 'Cynic-al' asking this question, but hoping that the cynics stay away?

We have an NMR instrument in our labs which uses a lot of high spec amplifiers

stand by for neutron-mediated hifi 🙂

Am I the only person to spot the irony of someone called 'Cynic-al' asking this question, but hoping that the cynics stay away?

we did that yesterday 🙂 He's cynical about cynicism, favouring subjective credulity (as well he might)

I'm new here and just wanted advice on bikes as I'm getting back into bikes but saw your post. I know there are crazy levels this can be taken but I use a Music Works socket block. I didn't do blindfold test or anything but came highly recommended by people i respect and I think sounds good. My turntable is a Linn LP12/Lingo with a Naim Aro arm and Kontrapunkt B cartridge and my overall system sounds as good as i need it to. Mates who work in studios say it sounds like when they are cutting music live, so that's high praise...

My mates who work in a bike shop told me my bike is the bestest they've ever sold.

I'm still waiting to find out if any of this high end stuff is used by people who've had their hearing tested on a regular basis.

Given that hearing loss with age is a recognised phenomenon, and that exposure to loud music is one of the ways that hearing loss can occur, how can you all be sure that you've not bought stuff that you can't hear?

I did once read a letter in a hi-fi mag from someone who claimed to work at the national grid and said that his hi-fi sounded better when the supply was coming from a nuclear power plant rather than coal. Spoof or sad, I was never sure...

also known as 'broken'
coming soon:
1) cars without steering or suspension designed for optimal straight, flat roads
2) keyboards with no backspace or delete keys for error-free typists
3) external bottom brackets for mud free environments

The problem with trying to cram more than one functionality (ie: power amp/power supply/DAC/laser etc) into one box is that the performance quality of each will suffer. The whole point of (ideally) producing one box-per-function HiFi is that the end performance is optimised...

Your first analogy is actually very good - if what you are doing is trying to deliver a musical audio signal to the ear as true as possible to the sound source - ie: drive in a straight line, you do indeed not need any "steering" or "suspension". Or if you prefer - graphic equalisers or balance controls!

and i bet it gives you a real VFM feeling when a stereo comes in lots of boxes...

"VFM"?

Slaps head....

It's not actually about the music!

I get it now!

The parallels with mountain biking are uncanny, the idea that the bike is more important than the actual riding...

I must be getting slow in my old age...

Slaps head....

It's not actually about the music!

Bizarre conclusion - the technology is all about delivering the music better... Presumably you think it's all just about the technology, for some reason?

sounded better when the supply was coming from a nuclear power plant rather than coal

you need to be sure the control rods are boron or the sound stage goes to hell 🙁

[i]the technology is all about delivering the music better...[/i]

Sure it is fella, sure it is... 🙄

...that's why in the whole recent hi-fi threads the only reference to music was to a squeaky drum pedal.

Anyway, as you were.

Not really - that was just an example of the delivery of the original sound source with accuracy and it's occasional drawbacks, if I remember correctly.

Sure it is fella, sure it is...

No need to patronise, thanks...

I'm not getting into the mains/cables argument, I know what I hear. As someone who has made a living in this industry for 12 years I can recommend a [url= http://www.vertexaq.com/index.php?option=com_products&page=product_details&catid=6&prodid=3&Itemid=31 ]Vertex AQ Jaya[/url] filter, the difference it made to my kit was staggering for the price and unlike other filters it didn't stifle dynamics. I have in my time time tried many different filters from DIY to PS Audio and Burmester (the best but £8k+), the Vertex is really very good value.

I think your high-end hearing goes when you get older, so why do these old fart reviewers bother buying tweeters?!

I think your high-end hearing goes when you get older, so why do these old fart reviewers bother buying tweeters?!

Agreed, most just 'feel' their way to a review conclusion....helped by how friendly they are with the supplier of course!

Old but good:
[url= http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/product/images/1Drop_Crop_web.jp g" target="_blank">http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/product/images/1Drop_Crop_web.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
P.W.B. Special One Drop Liquid possesses a most extraordinary property. The human senses, in common with the requirements of all living material including trees and all other green plants, have evolved the requirements for forward facing light energy.

Light, in common with most energies within Nature, readily forms an inverse pattern of itself when encountering an obstacle. Light is particularly modified when encountering a transparent obstacle. The human senses will not function correctly when confronted with an energy pattern which faces away from the senses.

The daily dietary requirement of salt and sugar is the chemical requirement that the body requires to manipulate the energy patterns absorbed by our bodies. To demonstrate the inverse pattern formation on objects which fill the modern environment, simply place salt on one face and sugar on another face of the object. Stimulate your sense of hearing by listening to music, then remove the salt and sugar. The effect on the senses is usually quite profound. The effect is particularly noticeable if the faces of a NON playing Compact Disc or vinyl record is manipulated by placing salt (in a small bag) on one face and sugar (in a small bag) on the other face.

All green plant material has it's own variation of salt and sugar in order for it to correctly manipulate sunlight. If a small bag containing sugar is attached to the upper surface of a leaf within your listening territory, including the garden, a noticeable beneficial effect will take place with your sense of hearing. A small bag containing salt can be attached to the underside of the leaf with the same beneficial effect.

P.W.B. Special One Drop Liquid can replace, with an increased effect, salt and sugar applied to the faces of an object, including to the faces of green plant life. The Special One Drop Liquid admits only forward facing light energy.

All Compact Discs should have a drop of the Special One Drop Liquid applied to both sides and spread across the surface using a finger tip. The surface can be dried with a cloth or a paper tissue. Vinyl records should have a drop of the Liquid applied to the particular area on the record which has the run off groove on both sides of the disc. The outside faces of the disc sleeve or disc housing should also be treated.

To ascertain the effect of the One Drop Liquid on any object, it is only necessary to initially stand the small bottle containing the Liquid on the face of the object. ALL transparent material within a listening room, including glass windows, clock faces, wrist watch faces, TV screens, the lenses of eye glasses etc. and display windows on equipment should all be treated. It is only necessary to apply one drop of the Liquid to the corner of a glass window for the beneficial effect to be heard.

The One Drop Liquid is particularly effective if applied to the rear of a photograph and to the glass face of a photographic frame. Artificial light, in the form of electrical light bulbs, has a particularly detrimental effect upon the sense of hearing and the glass of an electric light bulb should be treated.

The P.W.B. Special One Drop Liquid can be applied over all previously applied P.W.B. Foils

****************

The P.W.B. Special One Drop Liquid is supplied in a small 15ml bottle which is capable of applying the Liquid in single drop quantities.

Vertex AQ Jaya-

[i]Background hash and grunge is significantly reduced[/i]

Wow, that's a whole new aspect to my music that I'd never worried about before! I feel like when the toothpaste people started worrying me about "acid erosion".

Wow, Crimson monoblocks, didn't think there was anyone around even knew what they were. Don't use mine since the control board on my Logic DM101 went tits-up, but maybe one day I'll get it fixed and start playing my old vinyl again. I used mains plugs with components installed to smooth spikes and surges, which I used to have some problems with. Never bothered about fancy cables, just used 30A solid core mains cable. Bugger to bend 'round tight corners, mind.

Passive mains devices are BS. Active regeneration works but you pay for it.

Passive mains devices are BS. Active regeneration works but you pay for it.

Because?

Ah yes, PWB. Peter Belt is still around, somewhere. Last I heard, he was recommending having a picture of a dog on the coffee table whilst listening - although apparently pictures of black labradors worked best... 😯

Still waiting for an explanation of "VFM", by the way...

Value For Money?

I can understand how a mains conditioner *might* effect something like a valve, but a digital front end or amp full of transistors? What are we thinking could happen with clean/dirty mains?

EDIT: Actually, I can't understand. But I could imagine... 😉