[Closed] Hi Fi cable - directional? Are they taking the p*ss?

If you don't make the effort or want to make a difference, then you will simply never understand.

I get it - it only exists if to want to believe?

Like Santa?

Music in the car. Luddites!

You prefer a nice game of "I spy" instead? 🙂

What you have to remember with Ti29er is that he INVENTED 29er bikes in this country. And if you don't like them you are an idiot.

And he has a lovely Lynskey Ti bike. If you dont like this you are an idiot.

Oh, hang on its an On One.

But it is the best bike EVER.

I believe you have ridden every bike EVER as well to come to this conclusion?

Pleased to see you put as much effort into wiring up your tape decks and that.

Because you've never fallen for marketing hype, oh no...........

Mr Agreeable - Member

What do the audiophiles do when they want to listen to music in the car?

Do they have a hermetically sealed cockpit with special noise baffles, and a spatial modelling pre-amp that converts the acoustic characteristics of a Mondeo into the great hall of Worms Cathedral? Just wondering, like

http://www.bentleymotors.com/models/bentley_brooklands/naim/

But how many concerts are held in a 4x2x1m box?

So, at the risk of getting my leg bitten off by voracious red-fanged Woppit hunters as I put my toe back in the water...

I get the feeling that the "nay-sayers" here are relying on the unmeasurability factor (the science) without actually having had the experience of listening to a high-end [i]stereo music[/i] Hifi system, whilst the "yay-sayers" are relying on having had the experience with said level of equipment, despite being aware of the lack of science.

I suspect that's probably how it's going to stay.

I'm off for a drive in the Bentley.

Toodle-pip!

Damn I had been waiting to see what RichPenny had to say on all this

Sorry Rich, happy to talk about it privately, though tbh listening to music is always going to be more interesting!

I get the feeling that the "nay-sayers" here are relying on the unmeasurability factor (the science) without actually having had the experience of listening to a high-end stereo music Hifi system, whilst the "yay-sayers" are relying on having had the experience with said level of equipment, despite being aware of the lack of science.

I've never used the science, I've used my ears. I've used Krells, Audio Research amps, Apogee speakers plus owned/own high-end Naim amps and Linn LP12's with various arms/PSU's and I still don't get very expensive interconnects or speaker cable. I've even had conversations with Mr Linn himself during one listening session whereupon he slated the very room his and Naims equipment was being used! I do understand soundstage, stereo imagery etc and like I said, I bought what I liked even over "recommended" stuff. Yes some people will get it and some won't and those that have never tried should at least give it a go with an open mind. Just as I always have done when auditioning any new piece of kit, even those I had no intention of buying.

I'm off for a drive in the Bentley.

Don't forget to retrieve your CDs from the fridge. 🙂

aaaaah, STW. The only place on the interweb apart from a hifi forum where you could get 6 pages of posts on cables...

I love you guys!

I get the feeling that the "nay-sayers" here are relying on the unmeasurability factor (the science) without actually having had the experience of God's love, whilst the "yay-sayers" are relying on having had the experience of God's love, despite being aware of the lack of science.

"Mr Linn"? who the hell is Mr Linn? 🙂

jahwomble!!!! Who is Mr Linn!!!!!! Pmsl. It's this [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivor_Tiefenbrun ]chap [/url] here - but you knew that anyway didn't you 😆

do you mean Ivor Tiefenbrun?:)

I just felt left out and wanted to join in without actually having to state an opinion 😉

Eye - that Scottish chappieeee pmsl

Solid core cables as opposed to twisted core cables I can also see the point of and I've experienced the difference. There are good physical explanations as to why there is a difference.

There are good physical explanations for all sorts of factors that could push a cable up to a few hundred pounds. I've alluded to some of them above.

Seriously though, ditch the 3,5,7 speaker surround for music and switch back to a 2 system set up, one for music (stereo) and one for TV, Movies etc.

Yeah well that generates tons of clutter and miles of wire in your room. Not ideal.

Ti29er - Member

OK.
I retract the HALFORD'S slurr.
But the analogy is close.
Music in the car. Luddites!

The analogy is rubbish. There's a measurable difference between a Jones an a Halfords special. Even the difference between a cheap and expensive wine is measurable. The output from an adequate speaker cable and an expensive one isn't.

This is the funniest thread i have ever read on STW. I can honestly say its cheered me up today! Thanks everyone its been great entertainment!
(i'm not saying i know the answer....I don't but I can guess!)

Boils down to people trying to tell other people that what they have experienced is wrong.

"It's a crap song/painting/film. Of course it is, any fool knows that!"

Boils down to people trying to tell other people that what they have experienced is wrong.

Did you read any of the studies people posted where they did double blind tests?

OK, I would like to expand the post above a little:

There's a measurable difference between a Jones an a Halfords special.

There are lots of measurable differences. And some unmeasurable ones. Some would hold the Halfords special to be superior.

Even the difference between a cheap and expensive wine is measurable.

What are the purposes of a bottle of wine? Many differences are measurable, which are relevant?

The output from an adequate speaker cable and an expensive one isn't.

What are you measuring?

enhance your listening pleasure - send your cables [url= http://www.frozensolid.co.uk/fs_2009_01_009.htm ]here......[/url]
What would appear to be a snake oil offering, but the results come with a scientific (molecular level) explanation, as well as 'popular press' approval.........
Used to be an account of mine when I worked for BOC, we supplied the liquid nitrogen.... never did get round to sending my spare runs of QED silver in to 'take a bath'.... sometimes wish i had...

Just adding an extra dimension to discussions..... 😀

1st essential Hi-Fi upgrade.

[img] [/img]

Boils down to people trying to tell other people that they hear stuff that has no relationship to the science behind it.

Jeez, can't believe you bunch are still at it...

I get the feeling that the "nay-sayers" here are relying on the unmeasurability factor (the science) without actually having had the experience of listening to a high-end stereo music Hifi system

You'd be wrong, then. I have a nice stereo. I've listened to (and have owned) even nicer ones in the past. I've never heard cables make a difference to the sound quality.

The "unmeasurability factor" you refer to is a figment of your imagination. An audible difference is sound quality is the claim of many of these snake oil merchants. As I said before, all you need to do to convince me is find me listeners who can tell the difference (under controlled conditions) between different cables, when they don't know which cable is being used. It's a perfectly reasonable request - wine tasters often do blind tastings, for example.

DIRECTIONALITY: I'm rapidly reaching the conclusion that it may well be the placebo effect, rather than imagination (a thin line, perhaps). Nevertheless, it [i]seems real[/i], as in: I can hear a difference - the "right" way round just feels more musical.

I thought the response from NAIM, wherein they described the process of establishing directionality as getting "Roy" to listen to random lengths of cable was interesting.

If HE is experiencing the placebo effect, then it's an even deeper hall of mirrors.

Also, given the rest of their science-based design and production, a bit odd to say the least.

😯

DIFFERENT CABLES: I've actually done this in the past. Using a quality, but budget system (Thorens TT/Ortofon cart/A&R A30 amp/MShort Speakers), I cabled up with "QED" cable first, then bog standard mains cable second. The difference, I assure you, was obvious and completely non-subtle. A visual metaphor would be - can you tell the difference between a Warhol and a Gainsborough... so obvious, I should think anybody could hear it.

Not trying to start the argument up again like, just relaying my experience..

"I'm rapidly reaching the conclusion that it may well be the placebo effect, rather than imagination (a thin line, perhaps). Nevertheless, it seems real, as in: I can hear a difference."

I believe that you honestly believe you can hear a difference. But then, most people's religious faith is sincerely held.

Hmmm. Indeed. Although I'd like to hear from any of the faithfull that meeting Jesus was just a hallucination!

I can't really be bothered to read through the whole thread, but has any one asked whether the internal components of the system are of the same qaulity as the fancy leads? I was always under the impression that the sound qaulity could not be improved beyond the weekest link in the chain, so amazing leads would not improve my system. I've had it all to bits before and there was nought in it that looked like it was made of gold or platinum etc, so i got some 10 quid ones from richersounds.

I've actually done this in the past. Using a quality, but budget system (Thorens TT/Ortofon cart/A&R A30 amp/MShort Speakers), I cabled up with "QED" cable first, then bog standard mains cable second. The difference, I assure you, was obvious and completely non-subtle.

So you knew which cable you were listening to? It's that placebo effect again. The placebo effect is very real and very well understood. It's precisely why tests should be 'blind'.

A visual metaphor would be - can you tell the difference between a Warhol and a Gainsborough... so obvious, I should think anybody could hear it.

Yes. I find that odd. I'd like to take part in one of these things myself. I'm confident that I could hear the difference. Perhaps I'm wired (sorry) differently?

And back to the original question, directionality...

Has anyone yet come up with a rational explanation for how 'directionality' improves signal performance with an AC signal. Sound does not flow one-way down the cable from amp to speaker. An signal is passed by alternating current whereby all the little electrons dance one way for a bit, then they dance the other way for a bit, then back, then forward and so on. Any 'directional' property that helps the electrons dance one way but hinders them returning [b][i]must[/b][/i] degrade the signal, not preserve or improve it.

I find that odd. I'd like to take part in one of these things myself. I'm confident that I could hear the difference. Perhaps I'm wired (sorry) differently?

See the detail of a previous test I posted on here about hearing a difference between systems with 'normal' and Kimber power leads. The listeners all completed a pre-test questionnaire. Thos ewho scored them selves highly as either 'Audiophile' or 'Likely to hear a difference' performed [u]exactly[/u] the same as the rest of the group, i.e. they could not detect a difference.

I'm confident that I could hear the difference. Perhaps I'm wired (sorry) differently?

If you hear a knock at the door today, it'll be Richard Dawkins coming to tear up your Rationalist's Club members card.

Kimber power leads. The listeners all completed a pre-test questionnaire. Thos ewho scored them selves highly as either 'Audiophile' or 'Likely to hear a difference' performed exactly the same as the rest of the group, i.e. they could not detect a difference.

Sure. I don't doubt that. I'd still like to undergo the process, however...

I feel the quicksand of another argument coming up however - if it turns out that my experience is different due to something about my physical or psychological make-up being different (previous statements about blind tests notwithstanding), then I think that's perfectly rational.

As Richard once said in reply to the question "What if you died and met god?" -

"Well I'm sure we could sit down and have a nice scientific conversation about it and test how god fits into our understanding of a quantum universe"...

I feel the quicksand of another argument coming up however - if it turns out that my experience is different due to something about my physical or psychological make-up being different (previous statements about blind tests notwithstanding), then I think that's perfectly rational.

Yeah, you're one of the special people, chosen by God to have magical hearing abilities - well above and beyond normal audiophiles.

You're assuming that your experience [i]is[/i] different. As Higs points out, you have no proof of this and there is nothing about your experience that can't be explained by the placebo effect.

Mr Agreeable - Member

You're assuming that your experience is different. As Higs points out, you have no proof of this and there is nothing about your experience that can't be explained by the placebo effect.

Well then - that's rational.

Yeah, you're one of the special people, chosen by God to have magical hearing abilities - well above and beyond normal audiophiles.

Right. OK then, I'd hoped for a reasonable discussion but I see that the attack tendency has re-emerged so I'm quitting it.

🙄

As your local deity I think some of you are delusional. 😈

Right. OK then, I'd hoped for a reasonable discussion but I see that the attack tendency has re-emerged so I'm quitting it.

Very sensitive now aren't we? Funny, I didn't see your sensitive side in all the atheism debates. 😉
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A perennial New Scientist Feedback favourite:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926662.400-feedback.html

PMSL 🙂

"A caution to people buying these: if you do not follow the 'directional markings' on the cables, your music will play backwards."

While we're at it... anyone got a view on 'high quality' [u]digital[/u] interconnects? I know I do.