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I tried to think of an example from my line of work.
Where your analogy falls down is that there isn't HSRGD (Hospital Signs Regulations and General Directions) legislation in place as far as I'm aware.
Who's fault it was in your example would be a subjective argument, but that's not the case on the roads as I said on the previous page and swdan subsequently clarified. There's an actual binary right and wrong here which doesn't hinge on what you, I or anyone else thinks.
We used to have rising bollards in Cambridge, now all bus gates. They had loads of signs inc flashing yellow lights which detected any non bus and flashed to say 'stop'. No end of drivers just drove straight into them and trashed their car and quite often the bollard mechanism at the same time.
you’d want the classic “flying motorcycles” sign in this case
Thinking about it, those signs are subtly different aren't they. The "flying motorcycles" sign means no motor vehicles, the signs on the OP's road state "buses, taxis and cycles only" - so one could presumably take say a horse and cart down the former but not the latter.
We used to have rising bollards in Cambridge, now all bus gates. They had loads of signs inc flashing yellow lights which detected any non bus and flashed to say ‘stop’. No end of drivers just drove straight into them and trashed their car and quite often the bollard mechanism at the same time.
There's loads of videos on YouTube of the ones in Manchester spearing cars who try to tailgate buses. Worth a squizz if you fancy a bit of schadenfreude.
Eg:
The problem isn't the sign, it's the (incorrect) blind faith people have for sat nav.
. True. I think, if we thought about it enough, we'd come to the conclusion that the correct signage is what is pictured in the photos 😃Thinking about it, those signs are subtly different aren’t they. The “flying motorcycles” sign means no motor vehicles, the signs on the OP’s road state “buses, taxis and cycles only” – so one could presumably take say a horse and cart down the former but not the latter.
These were originally called bus plugs but after the first one was proposed and discussed in a team meeting, two colleagues and I just about wet ourselves. Seeing one of the other lose it again just set us off. It was a highly vicious circle.
After that, they became bus gates or bus gateways.
The problem isn’t the sign, it’s the (incorrect) blind faith people have for sat nav.
Definitely, you can report things like this to TomTom here.
http://uk.support.tomtom.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1834/~/reporting-a-map-error
But you'd also have to perhaps pay for an update every now and again.
Where your analogy falls down is that there isn’t HSRGD (Hospital Signs Regulations and General Directions) legislation in place as far as I’m aware.
Couldn't comment, I've foolishly sort of painted myself as an architect (who would be more concerned with signage) than the services engineer that I actually am.
HOWEVER I would still disagree, with the advent of CDM Regs and the healthcare equivalents, we (as a design team) probably would still be at fault, regardless of what the guidance said, for creating a condition where people would actively WANT to disregard the signage, e.g. in order to get from A-B quicker. It would be our job to at the very least make the alternative route extremely clear to the prospective A-Ber
Say what you like about engineers, but we are actually finally coming round the ideas of free will and human nature. A person will rationalise just about anything if they really want it. See also: Brexit...
A more interesting point is this - however correct, clear or adequate the signage is, it's failing to do the job it is intended for e.g. preventing people driving through the gate.
So now you have a scenario where people are driving where you don't want them to, but at least local council is half a million better off. Maybe I should actually be celebrating this fact.
Actually someone on FB has questioned the half a million figure, as that would mean 8 people a day for 6 years! Seems unlikely.
If the road is potentially an attractive "rat run" as you say in the OP then eight cars in a 24 hour period (or four who have paid full whack for the fine rather than the prompt payment discount) maybe isn't all that outlandish?
And playing devil's advocate for a moment, if it's "only" eight cars a day I'd say the signs were actually pretty successful. There's a popular cut-through near where I live which dodges a set of traffic lights, you'd easily get eight cars through there in about 15 seconds at peak times.
however correct, clear or adequate the signage is, it’s failing to do the job it is intended for e.g. preventing people driving through the gate.
But presumably far fewer people are driving through than would be if there was no restriction and it's self financing through fines. You don't need to stop 100% of rat running, just most of it.
In terms of income that's nothing - a bus lane near me has bought in £6m "over a few years" 9?)
I can't find the article now but the first time I read about it a woman was complaining she'd been fined more than once - FFS - you'd been fined for driving through it and you still managed to do it again?
I got caught by a Yellow box junction in Wandsworth that generated £1.2m in fines in 2017 alone.... I won't get caught there again so it's worked hasn't it?
The issue doesn't seem to be so much with signage as with drivers not paying attention, driving too fast for conditions (ie so that they can't take in all the information they need to), not actually knowing what signs mean (should we have regular re-tests?) or just not giving a damn. Yesterday a trading estate near me had an artic trying to reverse in. He couldn't get in because drivers kept blocking his way. The drivers couldn't get to the main road because of the artic reversing were all just driving over the pavement to get round - I'd fine the lot of them, the same with the dicks who drive over the pavement to get around the bin lorry. Illegal driving doesn't become legal just because your journey is going to be delayed by a minute or two.
It seems a lot of people are dicks.
Did you hear the one about a bloke asking STW to settle an argument?
Looking at the pictures its really clear and obvious to me and anyone who cannot see the signs and obey them should not be driving
they would consider 17,000 people having driven through it to be a dismal failure!
depends on what the volume of traffic was before the bus gate was established - 20,000, 50,000, 100,000 cars a day?
17,000 is probably a very small proportion in whatever time frame you’re referring to is probably a very low number. Over time you’d expect the rate to fall though - the people most likely to be confused by / ignore the signs are people most familiar with the route.