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If at a funeral for a child the mother gave a eulogy saying he was a very special child, it would take a real arsehole to run up to the front and shout "all children are special!".
In the US context you're using a serious of dreadful anecdotes to counter the data. There is a huge difference between us and the US in that grappling with an armed police offer is highly dangerous because he/she has to view that as a direct threat to their life if they are overpowered.
In the UK there have been 163 deaths in the last 10 years in or following police custody. Circa 150 deaths a year following police contact for all reasons. There's not a lot there to suggest the system killing of black people by the police on an epidemic scale. Deaths related to inequality is where the story is.
defunding the police is insane
What do you understand this to mean?
In the US context you’re using a serious of dreadful anecdotes to counter the data. There is a huge difference between us and the US in that grappling with an armed police offer is highly dangerous because he/she has to view that as a direct threat to their life if they are overpowered.
You're right, of course, but I think the strength of feeling about BLM stems from the observation that it KEEPS happening, mostly to black men, frequently where they are not grappling with the police, frequently where the police have total control of the person.
In the UK there have been 163 deaths in the last 10 years in or following police custody. Circa 150 deaths a year following police contact for all reasons. There’s not a lot there to suggest the system killing of black people by the police on an epidemic scale. Deaths related to inequality is where the story is
Again, I wouldn't necessarily argue with that, on the face of it - we're not the US, I don't think our police are anywhere near as bad as the US police. But that's not to say that there aren't issues over here - think I heard someone say in PMQs the other week that black men in London are 47 times more likely to be stopped and searched than white men? That can't be right.
Sorry, just to go back to this -
What’s not so cool is that it’s basically impossible to have any reasonable discourse about it without being accused of being racist or ignorant or both. The fact that there’s even a need to seek outside help to correct your mum’s thought error speaks to this.
I think you can discuss it in a harmonious way, as we're doing here - where it becomes a bit less pleasant is where people use All/White Lives Matter to suggest there's no inequality, or that racism isn't an issue.
What’s not so cool is that it’s basically impossible to have any reasonable discourse about it without being accused of being racist or ignorant or both. The fact that there’s even a need to seek outside help to correct your mum’s thought error speaks to this.
This is utter nonsense
I understand the concept but was struggling to explain in simply to my mother. I asked for a simple explanation and was given it which will help me to explain it to her.
I simply could not find the right words or analogy
You’ll find those bleating “all lives matter” tend not to want things to improve for people discriminated against because of their gender, wealth, family background etc either.
I noticed that too. All of the 'All lives matter' types that popped up on my FB were white and their other posts tended to hint at being fairly 'conservative', excepted when it came to things that they don't agree with.
Who'd have thunk it?
The "what about my legs" cartoon is as good an analogy as I've seen.
They're not talking about just defunding the police then having no law enforcement. They are saying that police forces (in the US at least) are often over-funded/equipped and semi-militarised and not fit for purpose, and attempts at reforming existing police departments have failed, so let's try a different solution. Not sure what's insane about that.
It's insane in that a more logical conclusion is to better fund the police, so you have better and more highly trained officers of a representative ethnic makeup.
To go back to this
observation that it KEEPS happening, mostly to black men, frequently where they are not grappling with the police, frequently where the police have total control of the person
When you use words like frequently do you mean frequently making the news and YouTube? Because I'm not sure there is any data to suggest that across the millions of police interactions in the US it's more frequent, as much as this runs counter to intuition.
I do stand by it being difficult to discuss this. There are some very reasonable posts on here but equally many implying that anyone who doesn't get BLM is racist/ignorant/thick.
They’re not talking about just defunding the police then having no law enforcement. They are saying that police forces (in the US at least) are often over-funded/equipped and semi-militarised and not fit for purpose, and attempts at reforming existing police departments have failed, so let’s try a different solution. Not sure what’s insane about that.
NYPD's budget is $10.9 billion - I'm not a police finance person, but that seems a lot to me.
I do stand by it being difficult to discuss this.
It's difficult when people start throwing around terms like 'insane' and claim there are statistics that counter the aims of BLM without ever actually posting links/evidence, and claiming that the movement is just based on YouTube videos.
Poah, BLM is a movement of individuals,
This is the thing that gets me. Its like the idea of a Cycling community or Muslim community. There are communities but there is no unified single POV or spokesperson that everyone gets behind. Individuals within a group may have opposing opinions!
Deaths related to inequality is where the story is
Addressing systemic inequality is a large part of the BLM movement. Which is why it's facetious at best to claim it's just about US police killings.
Defunding police can take many forms. In Ukraine the entire police force was sacked / disbanded, many rehired but the point was to be able to get rid of as much corruption as possible so everyone was removed and then had to join so people where then stopped from joining the police rather than being kicked out.
When you use words like frequently do you mean frequently making the news and YouTube? Because I’m not sure there is any data to suggest that across the millions of police interactions in the US it’s more frequent, as much as this runs counter to intuition.
In the context of the most extreme cases (George Floyd, Eric Garner, Breonna Taylor, Elijah MacClain, et al), yes, it comes from news channels and social media - they're outliers, I don't know if anyone's claiming they're commonplace, statistically significant events. But I think there's significance to being able to pull a handful of names out of my head, and there's plenty of statistical evidence that suggests race issues with US police - black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police during their lifetime, for example, and black people fatally shot by police are twice as likely to be unarmed as white people.
The fact that there’s even a need to seek outside help to correct your mum’s thought error speaks to this.
Do not ever have difficulty explain matters to someone who has no frame of reference about the subject you are discussing? Asking for ideas to give a sound explanation that is accessible to the indented audience is positive step for any subject matter.
Thats it Brick!
In the UK there have been 163 deaths in the last 10 years in or following police custody.
Not one officer has been prosecuted for any of those deaths. There has been one prosecution in the last 50 or so years. Truly disgraceful and we have a problem with the attitude that prevails in law enforcement here regarding race.
It’s insane in that a more logical conclusion is to better fund the police
Better still discourage the my fellow officer right or wrong attitude that currently pervades our police services. Don't forget Cressida Dick was in charge of the operation when Jean de Menzies was shot, she should be allowed nowhere near command of a police service for that one error.
RE the defund the police thing, Last Week Tonight explained it well for me in this Video.
Essentially some (not all) US police forces have become over-militarized, are actively being trained to view themselves as 'killers', and are near-impossible to reform due to union power. For one New Jersey (I think) police force the only way to root out the corruption that had become endemic was to dissolve it and re-hire the good officers.
Right… let’s bring this closer to home…
Let’s say we had a high profile campaign to encourage more black people into mountain biking (and we should). If people started saying, ‘no, we should encourage more people to get into mountain biking, irrelevant of race’… they may mean well, and genuinely seek equality and involvement for all… or they may be against helping and encouraging more black people into mountain biking because they see at as their space, and they don’t mind or care that it is so white, or worse, feel a need to keep it that way. Whatever the motives… the watering down of the message would counter the intention of the campaign if the objectors were listened to, even if their concerns sound quite rational and reasonable on the surface at first to many.
Do not ever have difficulty explain matters to someone who has no frame of reference about the subject you are discussing? Asking for ideas to give a sound explanation that is accessible to the indented audience is positive step for any subject matter.
Honestly I'd usually take it as a sign that I was unqualified to be teaching them about something.
It’s difficult when people start throwing around terms like ‘insane’ and claim there are statistics that counter the aims of BLM without ever actually posting links/evidence, and claiming that the movement is just based on YouTube videos.
Thanks for the strawman, BLM is clearly more than YouTube videos but it's undeniable that YouTube videos such as that of George Floyd lit a spark and that people's perceptions of police brutality are driven by those out all proportion to the evidence.
I can provide data sources no problem, and you can probably challenge them. But hold others advocating for systematic police killing of black people to the same standard. The issue is inequality, blacks suffer disproportionately from inequality and as I've said above to that end BLM is on the right lines.
Approximately 10 million arrests /yr in the US
Approx 1000 deaths from shooting by police
Risk of death on arrest 1/10,000
A disproportionate number of violent crimes are committed by black people. 13% of the population but 50% (~7000/yr) murders. A disproportionate number of black people are arrested, but when they are arrested it doesn't seem to be the case that they're more likely to be shot. It should also be said that blacks dis-proportionally suffer from this violent crime.
This doesn't fit the narrative
This does suggest there's a problem
Basically nobody is quite sure what's going in but it's certainly not simple and it's certainly out of proportion to what the high profile police killings would suggest. There's even a suspicion that the George Floyd video could make matters worse. Could it end up with more people resisting arrest from lethally armed police officers?
Approx 1000 deaths from shooting by police
There are ways to die that don’t involve shooting, obviously. And that’s before we get into punishment beatings. If you going to argue that there is no problem faced by black people as regards policing in the USA, and to a much lesser extend the UK, then, quite frankly, we might be best ignoring all your contributions… because you are plain wrong on this.
100% agree that inequality is the issue, and that police brutality is one manifestation of a much bigger problem. But it is a particularly abhorrent manifestation, and one that should be comparatively easy to do something about, given that the police are literally there to protect people and not murder them. Arrested black people being no more likely to be shot seems to me to be a bit of a contortion that suggests that racism is not an issue with US police.
Could it end up with more people resisting arrest from lethally armed police officers?
Seriously? Three of the four names I've mentioned were not shot, and the one that was was shot by police who were in the wrong house. I don't think any of them were resisting in a way that justified use of lethal force.
Honestly I’d usually take it as a sign that I was unqualified to be teaching them about something.
I think you may have misunderstoody point. The person you are trying to explain to has no frame of reference. You yourself may have and may have excellent knowledge but conveying to this to someone with no knowledge can be difficult. Asking ways to approach this problem is normal.
So how many people were killed in US by police by a means other than shooting? I think you'll be disappointed when you google away because when cops have guns that seems by the far the easiest way to kill someone and the way least likely to end them up in prison. This truth does not detract from the fact the killing of George Floyd was abhorrent and should not happen. At the risk of triggering you, you can find videos on youtube of cats walking on two legs but I won't be making the case for cats being bipedal animals.
As I said above, black people are killed in disproportionate numbers. 13% of the population, but >20% of those killed. That does not tally with most people's intuition based on the high profile cases and speaks more to greater inequality, high crime rates and greater interaction with the police than other ethnic groups.
Seriously? Three of the four names I’ve mentioned were not shot, and the one that was was shot by police who were in the wrong house. I don’t think any of them were resisting in a way that justified use of lethal force.
Again, anecdotes. There are 10 million arrests per year, you are talking about 3 cases over a number of years. So 3 arrests out of potential a hundred million arrests.
It's a more trivial example, but it's like the daily mail selectively sharing the most ranty and unreasonable lycra warrior cyclists. This shapes people's views of "cyclists" but it doesn't account for the hundreds of millions of uneventful journeys by normal people on bikes.
When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
I think you may have misunderstoody point. The person you are trying to explain to has no frame of reference. You yourself may have and may have excellent knowledge but conveying to this to someone with no knowledge can be difficult. Asking ways to approach this problem is normal.
Being able to explain something in simple terms to a 6 year old is the Eisenstein definition of understanding. I think it's brilliant to recognise gaps in your knowledge and try and keep learning. I think going away and hoovering up arguments with the express intent of going back to persuade someone of something is a kind of sophistry rather than honest engagement.
Here we go again!!! 🙂
Being able to explain something in simple terms to a 6 year old is the Eisenstein definition of understanding
That was Einstein. And it's clearly false, there are some things that rely on the capability to understand as well as the ability to explain, but as a basic premise it's OK.
But there's nothing wrong in asking for help to translate something into a format that the 6yo would understand. Otherwise, why would teacher training exist.
Being able to explain something in simple terms to a 6 year old is the Eisenstein definition of understanding
Just because Einstein said it doesn't mean it's right. Some of the smartest people I knew during my postgrad work were the worst teachers of simple concepts because they knew so much about a subject that they couldn't communicate those concepts simply. Equally, less 'smart' people that I knew with a worse grasp of the subject were better teachers because they could do this.
Behaviours and attitudes matter.
As I said above, black people are killed in disproportionate numbers. 13% of the population, but >20% of those killed. That does not tally with most people’s intuition based on the high profile cases and speaks more to greater inequality, high crime rates and greater interaction with the police than other ethnic groups.
It feels a little bit like you're trying to argue over things we agree on.
NYPD’s budget is $10.9 billion – I’m not a police finance person, but that seems a lot to me.
It is a lot. Digging into the figures the operationg budget (so excluding pensions and other central costs is around $5.6 billion (NYPD operating budget 2020, from here). To put that into context the England and Wales (so excluding Scotland and NI) total policing budget was £13.3 billion (source) for 2018/19. This inlcudes a lot of the national counter terrorism etc policing as well as the 43 local police forces.
E&W population approx 68m, New YOrk population approx 9m.
What that means to me is that this country has a very different policing model the the US. We already 'defund' the police, in that a lot of crime prevention money is spent in health, social care, youth services etc. Not enough is spent, but that prevention money is far better spent than splurging cash on military vehicles, grendade launchers etc.
I also think it's useful to separate individuals from a group. With almost everything in life there is more variation between individuals within a group than between groups. i.e. knowing what group someone is from tells you very little about them as an individual. It's one of the most powerful arguments against racism really - if you know (or believe) that group X has more of Y, that tells you absolutely nothing about any individual you meet. Within group X, Y could vary by 100% but between group X and Z only by 3%. So it's mad to use any racist belief to inform your interactions with people.
In the case of George Floyd, it's also dangerous to draw group wide inferences based on those individual circumstances. Without assigning blame, the combination of those police officers on that day with George Floyd had tragic results. But to extend that event to say the police systematically kill black people does not seem to supported by data and the variation between the people involved and their groups will be massive.
As I said above, black people are killed in disproportionate numbers.
So what was your point again?
Our police aren't self-funding either which makes a fundamental difference. Defunding isn't just about reducing budgets, its about changing the funding model so that the money is given by the community (via local government) rather than taken (via fines and citations).
Ebennet, excellent example. Some people are bad teachers regardless of how well read they are on a subject.
Black people are shot and killed disproportionately by the police in America per capita.
There is no conclusive evidence that an individual black person being arrested by the police is at a higher risk of being shot and killed. 13% vs 20%. The tragic anecdotes misrepresent this.
The levels of violent crime and murders committed by blacks is very high. 13% vs 50%. This speaks more to problems of inequality than indiscriminate targeting by police. Black suffer the most from this crime, driving inequality further.
The above points challenge some of what BLM stands for but not others, and the problem of BAME inequality is abhorrent.
Why does this matter? Well the US is fighting a culture war that plays to Trump based on unsupported claims. We're sort of importing it and I think that's not good and won't achieve it's aims.
In regards to NYPD budget:
"Spending on personal service (salaries and wages, including overtime) is 88 percent of the NYPD’s budget, with other than personal service spending (including items such as contract costs, operating expenses for equipment, and vehicle maintenance costs) consuming the remaining 12 percent."
"The NYPD fiscal year 2020 headcount is 54,003 employees. Of those, 36,178 are uniformed employees and 17,825 are civilian employees. In addition to administrative positions, civilian employees include 9-1-1 call responders, school safety agents, and transportation enforcement agents. "
When trying to understand NYPD policing views, budget imho is irrelevant. Its the "broken windows" theory aggresively enforced by Guliani that defines NYPD view on policing. Up to this day it is still a point of discussion, since when the policy was implemented, crime stats went down, however it is argued that this was a countrywide trend. A recent study(2017) showed that major crime complaints actually went down when this was temporary halted-although it has some big fat error bars in the data.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0211-5
So it’s mad to use any racist belief to inform your interactions with people.
Yet people still do, some knowingly, I believe many on an unconcious level (I know I was guilty of that, I'm sure I still am, but I'm working on it!).
But to extend that event to say the police systematically kill black people does not seem to supported by data and the variation between the people involved and their groups will be massive.
I think "systematically" carries too heavy an emphasis. But black are being killed by the police in disproportionate numbers, and it's right that this be addressed, the shame of it is that it's taken mass protests to even start to address it.
The levels of violent crime and murders committed by blacks is very high. 13% vs 50%. This speaks more to problems of inequality than indiscriminate targeting by police. Black suffer the most from this crime, driving inequality further.
Whilst I agree on the problems of inequality, given that black people are shot and killed disproportionately by the police in America per capita, what's your assesment of equality in the legal system?
I have got absolutely no idea what equality in the legal system is like in the US. If you're suggesting that it accounts for some of the difference in %s of violent crime that's a big claim. You would need to isolate race from other factors to do the study which would hard.
Also, if I was a scientist I would not touch questions like that with a shitty stick. 1) Because of how difficult it would be to study and what would even do with the results and b) you'd run the risk of being Charles Murray'ed if you weren't careful or results didn't say what was expedient
But black are being killed by the police in disproportionate numbers, and it’s right that this be addressed,
Can you provide actual numbers for that beyond black Vs everyone else? You can't just look at the numbers of people killed by police because that doesn't tell the whole story. If the majority of violent or armed crime is committed by black people then the likely hood is the police are going to be shooting at black people compared to white or Hispanic or Asian.
If you are armed and you commit a crime the likely hood of you getting shot is going to be higher than if you don't commit a crime.
Whilst I agree on the problems of inequality, given that black people are shot and killed disproportionately by the police in America per capita, what’s your assesment of equality in the legal system?
Your statement is not clear. One has nothing to do with the other. Unless your argument is that a black person has a higher likelihood of being stopped, and therefore over represented in situations where lethal force is justified.
There is prejudice in non-lethal force: " Using official statistics from New York City’s Stop, Question and Frisk program, he finds that blacks and Latinos are more likely to be held, pushed, cuffed, sprayed or struck than whites who are stopped. "
In terms of lethal force:
"Given a situation in which the police officer is likely to be justified in using lethal force, is he more likely to choose lethal force if the subject is black?" The answer is no
discussion page:
https://www.bruegel.org/2016/07/racial-prejudice-in-police-use-of-force/
Journal:
https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399