[Closed] Help me explain why " all lives matter" is not the same as BLM

Wish I could suss images.

"We said Black Lives Matter
Never said Only Black Lives Matter
We know All Lives Matter
We just need your help with #blacklivesmatter
Because black lives are in danger"

Here's a few explanations:

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/11/12136140/black-all-lives-matter

I think the comic strip works fairly well:

As a white person, my view is of course limited, but it seems to me that "all lives matter" is a cry that totally denies that there's any difference between the lived experiences of people regardless of colour, and I do not believe that that's true.

but it seems to me that “all lives matter” is a cry that totally denies that there’s any difference between the lived experiences of people regardless of colour

This

Shit, I wish I hadn't looked on special media at this shit, seems there's a wave of it at the mo.
Best I read was:
"WHERE THE **** ARE THE ALL LIVES MATTER PEOPLE? O wait... it's not a real movement, it's just a way for people to be rascist assholes and dehumanize black people fighting for their rights."

Black Lives Matter because they're not valued as equal to white lives.
For All Lives Matter to be true we need to end discrimination and recognise that being white gives us access to opportunities that are not available to those who experience racism.
Feel free to ask more questions 😊

But all lives are different and colour is only one of many variables that make lives different. What about gender, wealth, family back ground to name just 3

You’ll find those bleating “all lives matter” tend not to want things to improve for people discriminated against because of their gender, wealth, family background etc either.

But all lives are different

Your life matters dude.

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-amercian-riots/ FYI TJ, not sure why the url is different to the actual George Floyd title.

What about gender, wealth, family back ground to name just 3

Because that’s how ignorants and racsist (I’m not accusing you) water down or distract from what it means to be black.

Cheers folk - that helps me a lot.

She just does not see it - not as an excuse to discriminate.

Ta

What about gender, wealth, family back ground to name just 3

You've fallen into a 'whataboutism' logical fallacy there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Two people:
One is starving.
One is not.

Do you give them both food?

I grew up piss poor on a shitty, rough council estate. Yet my life was (and is) relatively good on many levels. Black people from better socioeconomic backgrounds have had it tougher just because of their skin colour. Black people from the same sort of places I grew up in, I can’t even fathom what they’re up against.

I’m not wording this very well and faerie is the best to answer TJ’s question tbh. I can’t imagine being scared of the police, or knowing that some people will judge me based on skin tone. It’s utterly ****ed up and that’s why BLM matters. At least to me any way.

It’s a targeted rebuttal to racism past and present committed overwhelmingly against black people.

It’s not a general platitude. It doesn’t negate that all lives matter. Although I can see why it’s confusing for certain people. I can also see that it ‘enrages’ some people. Don’t be those people.

"Save the whales" did not mean "**** the other fish"

(Yes, I know whales are technically mammals)

Basically they ****ed up their slogan.

The movement is saying "black lives ALSO matter." White lives already matter, these aren't intended to be mutually exclusive concepts.

Again ta. MY mother is no racist in anyway but a very sharp and intolerant of waffle woman and I just could not find the right words to explain.

Ta muchly

gah... Cougar's image was redex up when I went to post mine

Three words are enough. The “also” isn’t required. That, in many situations, in many countries, black lives clearly do not matter to those with the power to take lives… that is the point. That there are people who act as if black lives do not matter… that is what is being brought to our attention, and what campaigners want to change.

Michael Holding on a Sky cricket mini doc, I'm paraphrasing but 'we are saying black lives matter because we have been taught all our lives that only white guys matter'

Tell ya ma to read 'why I stopped talking to white people about race'.

There's a good explanation in there of why this kind of 'I don't see race' view isn't actually helpful or fair.

intolerant of waffle

Well thats a whole different debate.

Tell ya ma to read ‘why I stopped talking to white people about race’.

Totally agree. But better yet, "White Fragility" by Robin DiAngelo.

She just does not see it – not as an excuse to discriminate.

That's kind of the thing, I think a few years ago, I'd have been saying "all lives matter" too - it's not, I don't think, to castigate white people, more that we need to be more considerate, I think.

That, in many situations, in many countries, black lives clearly do not matter to those with the power to take lives

What situations in what countries?

When we say 'Save the Rain Forest'....people dont say what about all trees? Dont all trees matter?

Intolerant of waffle meaning if I gave her a waffle explanation I would be shot down in flames hence wanting something clear and concise which you guys have given me

What situations in what countries?

Well, start with police using lethal force in many USA states. It’s much wider than that, but have a read about that first.

Edit: having just read your posts in other similar threads, that question clearly wasn’t asked in good faith. Apologies to others for replying to you.

Three words are enough. The “also” isn’t required.

The "also" shouldn't be required. But it demonstrably is in certain circumstances or this thread wouldn't exist.

A slogan doesn’t need to be an essay.

‘Black Lives Matter’ is all that is needed. Those who don’t think Black Lives Matter know exactly what the phrase means. Those that genuinely have to ask what it means will learn from asking questions.

Tj, it's good to hear that these discussions are being had, thank you.

Yes, the Michael Holding piece said it for me. IIRC he said OF COURSE White Lives Matter, that has never been in doubt. No one has ever questioned it, because it's so obvious and it's taken for granted. That really resonated for me, that not once in my life had I considered the value of my life as being remotely connected to my skin colour.

BLM isn't even all black lives either - BLM is only about those people killed by police

If they want to save black lives they should be trying to sort out the actual issue not one that just gets sound bites and hashtags.

If you were say of ****stani heritage right now having also felt totally marginalised most of your life looking on what would you be thinking?...

I'm with you - black lives do matter?
I'm with you - and this is about my life too, kind of?
Good on you, we'll have our turn next?
Could you not have tweaked the slogan a bit and made me part of the gang?

BLM isn’t even all black lives either – BLM is only about those people killed by police

If they want to save black lives they should be trying to sort out the actual issue not one that just gets sound bites and hashtags

FFS. Such ignorance has to be wilful.

FFS. Such ignorance has to be wilful.

You didn't watch the video or read what BLM actually stands for (They have a radical Marxist agenda BTW). It is only about police brutality.

i thought, all lives matter was the vegetarian thing.

this is as bad as the nhs stealing the pride rainbow.

winkysmiley

They have a radical Marxist agenda BTW

Good.

If you were say of ****stani heritage right now having also felt totally marginalised most of your life looking on what would you be thinking?…

Well for a start this is born of the US which has a very different demographic to here.

Second, my honky ass assumed that "black" meant BAME people generally. Like, you want a definitive list for your placard?

You didn’t watch the video or read what BLM actually stands for (They have a radical Marxist agenda BTW). It is only about police brutality.

When's that video from? Who gives a **** if they're overly committed to an equal society where the poor and hungry are not left to die?

Poah, BLM is a movement of individuals, not an organisation. They stand for more than stopping police violence and are fighting to end racism in all its forms, I'm looking for a judicial review of SPSO legislation and legal aid for human rights and public law cases, it is something that will be of benefit to all lives.
Some black people such as Morgan Freeman and Kanye West have internalised racism, refusing to see it as a collective problem and projecting the blame back on to individuals and accepting the narrative of "whiteness".

Cougar, your honky ass assumed correctly. There's been quite a bit of discussion around terminology and language, black is inclusive of anyone of colour, but fails to recognise the vast diversity of culture and experience. BAME is not a word and is falling out of favour as it segregates people who have a shared experience and diminishes their issues. PoWER, People Who Experience Racism has been mooted

BAME is not a word and is falling out of favour

Good, cos it made my teeth itch using it.

This is part of the problem and it doesn't help the various causes, words being a moving target. If you're obsessing about correct terms then it diverts attention from the bigger issues. I once got chastised for referring to "coloured people," I said I'm sorry, I genuinely thought that was preferred terminology, my mistake, what should I say instead? and was told "people of colour."

At the point where someone is hanging their hat on the same words in a differing order being fine or problematic surely they've lost focus? Like come on, we're trying to do the right thing here.

The inequality in outcomes for BAME people in the western world is a disgrace, there's no doubt about that. In so far as BLM relates to that, it makes sense to highlight it and I can see why tagging on "all lives matter" glosses over that and could cause upset.

What's not so cool is that it's basically impossible to have any reasonable discourse about it without being accused of being racist or ignorant or both. The fact that there's even a need to seek outside help to correct your mum's thought error speaks to this.

In the context of the US, if you ask people how many people (all races) are shot dead by police they typically get it wrong by 1 or 2 orders of magnitude (it's ~1000/yr).
Broadly a risk of death of 1 in 10000 if you're arrested. Black people are dis-proportionally represented in this 1000. However, if you look by arrest it's far less clear that there's any racial bias. As in, once the police try to arrest you it's not clear that as a black person you are more likely to suffer harm. It likely circles back to societal inequality leading to increased interaction with the police rather the police just killing people based on racial bias.

So a lot of people, myself included, feel some discomfort at the use shocking internet videos to drive things because it's whipping up a frenzy not necessarily focused on the right things (for example, defunding the police is insane and would likely harm people in the most crime affected areas which are likely to have higher BAME populations etc). We're allowing hysteria rather than evidence to drive action and that doesn't feel right. With millions of interactions with the police, it's a matter of when not if the next video emerges and then what?

I'm not sure I agree with this but there's a critique of BLM that if you truly aspire to a post-race world then this ultra attention on racial difference is incompatible with this. At some point we'll need to transition to a place where BLM would sound as strange as someone setting up a defence league for people with brown hair.

In the context of the US, if you ask people how many people (all races) are shot dead by police they typically get it wrong by 1 or 2 orders of magnitude (it’s ~1000/yr).
Broadly a risk of death of 1 in 10000 if you’re arrested. Black people are dis-proportionally represented in this 1000. However, if you look by arrest it’s far less clear that there’s any racial bias. As in, once the police try to arrest you it’s not clear that as a black person you are more likely to suffer harm. 

I don't remember the figures, but in the UK the likelihood of dying in custody is roughly the same regardless of colour - but if you look at causes of death, black people are significantly more likely to either die from the effects of restraint or from some kind of physical altercation. In the US, we know the names of the George Floyds, the Eric Garners, the Breonna Taylors, and many more - I only ever hear one white person's name mentioned in whataboutery by the All/White Lives Matter brigade.