Forum menu
Yes, Wwaswas, I used to import British made bicycle frames into France in the 90s would you believe. My British and French suppliers from that period that are still in business have all jumped on the "Made in Taiwan" bandwagon (when it's not Tunisia or Malaysia). I bought a Quicksilver top last week wrongly assuming it would still be "Made in France". No chance, China.
Supply and demand is all very well but simply isn't being allowed to work. The Chinese government controls the demand for dollars to maintain a favourable Yuan exchange rate - intervention. A lack of mobility of labour means the Chinese can't move to better paid jobs - they're stuck in China. If we don't intervene too then our main export will continue to be jobs.
are we allowed to buy the (taiwanese) steel frames?
so, reality is you're prepared to do anything to see the UK a success except live there, buy things and pay taxes?
not trying to be harsh but you seem to be tryign to give brant and dave a kicking on this thread when what they're doing reflects the business practices of about 99% of the uk bike industry and probably not far off that for cars, white goods etc etc.
we've established that they do make CF frames at a factory with an Italian Manager and now you've moved on to makign brant the figurehead for the demise of Britains industrial output?
There are still British frame builders that will build you a frame with a full set of Reynolds or Columbus tubes. I won't name them on Brant's thread but if you want a top quality steel frame you can still buy British.
I bought a Curtis frame recently, british made from british T45 tubes but I wouldn't have paid the original £750 asking price even though it's a really lovely bit of kit - it's £250 more than a Cotic.
There will always be a market for handmade examples of British engineerign like custom bike frames and Bristol cars but we're never going to go back to a whole town built around a factory producing producing them for export all over th world in huge numbers.
We need to create the economic conditions that mean ON-One and Planetx can make their frames and other kit at competetive prices in the UK and Europe. Until then, every frame imported is another nail in our economic coffin.
I sort of see where you're coming from, but it may also be a case of if the playing field was even the products would no longer be viable in any country and we still wouldn't have those jobs.
I.e. if it cost the same to make the product in China as it does in the UK, people in the UK wouldn't be able to afford the product. Of course many people might see that as a good thing - the demise of consumerism. But I think that's probably another thread.
Largest country in the world with one time zone China!
My presence on the thread from the start was to point out that the globalisation that many moan about on STW is happening right in front of their eyes on STW as Brant does his shopping in Taiwan.
I really think Brant's Italian claim is tenuous to say the least. That he buys form a Chinesse company founded by a Chinese in 2005 employing about 500 people of which one is Itlaian since May last year doesn't make his bikes very Italian.
I certainly haven't given him a kicking and didn't intend to, he doesn't seem upset, you do, Wwaswas. He is part of a system that benefit a few but is disasterous for the long-term health of the British economy, I'm sure he is intelligent and perceptive enough to know that.
So what is viable in the UK now, Ian? Britain enjoyed an inward investment boom in the 80s, and now? Even aerospace is soon to be confronted with Chinese competition. Anything we can do they can do cheaper.
I think the Italian bit was a joke, tbh 🙂
I'm not upset I just dont; understand why you picked this thread to start berating a small part of the UK bike industry with what is, as you say, a general concern about the free market, the fair market, the uk economy, the world economy and the chinese economy?
Everyone on here understands where the things they buy are manufacutred. P-X/On-one, Cotic etc all 'add value' to what they import in some form or another either before it's made or before sellign it on so they're not just shifting boxes.
The British have spent hundreds of years importign stuff to turn a profit, it used to be tea, now it's just 'stuff' but it's not new.
Out of interest when you were importing British bikes/frames to France did French people accuse you of undermining their industry as I can't really see it was any different to what brant does?
meh, only the neuveaux riche are complaining.
how was the merino factory and how cheap can i get a light as bright as a star, you know if the star was much closer than it is usually, just a star would be a step backwards
My chart shows that there are now 500 people working in a Chinese factory that could be working in a British factory
Hah, not likely. The frames would cost many times more, and your sales would be far lower so there wouldn't be 500 people employed. Lots of frames ARE still made here anyway.
I'd expect a more intelligent post from you Edukator.
Let the Chinese do what they can well (make stuff cheaply) and let us do what we can do well (make money form money and innovate).
Thank you for the insult, Molgrips. From you I'll take it as a compliment. 8)
Whilst there are anomalies I'd like to see go in Europe such as Ireland's 12.5% company tax rate and Holland's musician's tax rate that are clearly intended to gain a competetive advantage the playing field is reasonably flat in Europe. I've no doubt me selling British Frames in France irritated some but no more than Time selling frames in the UK. You can sell on quality you know, it's just that the market is smaller than if you sell on price.
We have seven different carbon frame factories we work with at present, and a carbon rim factory too. And that's me counting on my fingers at ten past one in the morning.
I am seeing (god willing and with a following wind) three of our carbon factories tommorow, two on Thursday, one on Saturday and saw one on Monday.
We don't get everything made in one place.
There is no conspiracy.
And actually I think Roberto is Vice General manager if I am being accurate.
It's a long time since March 2010.
You can sell on quality you know
Yep, but in smaller numbers. Shall I buy an Orange P7 frame (are they even made here still?) for £465 or a 456 for £200...
P7's aren't made here. But 456's are made in the town I am in now.
Ther you are, Wwaswas, Brant doesn't let some buy-european keyboard warrior ruffle his feathers or get in the way of business, nor should you.
I wasn't ruffled, just confused...
I asked a uk builder to quote me for a uk made 853 frame.
I did it after getting all emotional and guilty about the decline of the British steel industry around our Magna warehouse.
Price that came back, for 100pc, all 18in was surprising and would be £999 at rrp with our usual margins. Infact less margin.
Not good.
I'm going to chip in here (see if anyone can guess why). I'm going to make a [i]wild stab in the dark[/i] about why you ended up with the £999 retail price and it can be summed up in one word, infrastructure. I'm going to guess that the framebuilder you approached wasn't set up for doing production runs of 10 never mind 100 and they would have struggled with both the workload and small details like decals and paint on that scale. I would agree that frames [i]could[/i] be made in the UK, but at the moment there is no one set up to do production runs for other people. Those that build here, basically do it for themselves so don't have the extra capacity to take on other peoples work too.
If we had the time and resources to do it, I would set up a proper factory here straight away and I genuinely believe we could build stuff for the same price that anyone else can [b]and[/b] pay proper british wages but it would take time and commitment from brands such as On-one/Cotic/Dialled etc to trust that a UK product could work. As it stands, they do it better and cheaper than we can so that's where the brands mentioned above will go (not a criticism bty, it's the sensible business decision)
Someone touched on it earlier, we invent something, get good at it, get bad at it then make someone else do it for us then we start the cycle again. I wonder how long this can go on for, how much crap can we invent before we have nothing to do ourselves?
Interested, 18BikesMatt - why do you think you could produce frames at the same price and quality whilst paying your staff what.. 5 times more? How much more is it?
how much crap can we invent before we have nothing to do ourselves?
Loads. Teleporters, replicators, hover cars, antimatter energy.. where we do well in industry is high tech stuff. We are actually quite good at that. One of our main manufacturing industries is spaceship components, afaik.
What size order do you need?
I can take 1000 frames a year.
There are still British frame builders that will build you a frame with a full set of Reynolds or Columbus tubes. I won't name them on Brant's thread but if you want a top quality steel frame you can still buy British.
why can't you name them? you don't work in the industry do you?
is this a paid for advertorial thread? or are we not allowed to mention a brand other than those owned/distributed by planet-x?
maybe brant should add a disclaimer '*other brands may be available' consult your LBS'
I did mrsmith but I think I got away with it.
ok well here's a pretty picture as i don't work in the industry
[img] 
[/img]
I think I speak for everyone on this thread, the UK has a knowledge based economy and YOU - Edukator - are a wierdo.
I think I speak for everyone on this thread, the UK has a knowledge based economy and YOU - Edukator - lack knowledge.
FTFY?
Molgrips, ok, maybe not [i]exactly[/i] the same price, but certainly in the same ballpark, whereas the UK is not even close now. Transport costs would be massively reduced (Reynolds not making tubing in UK and shipping it to Taiwan to be built into frames for example) which would probably make quite a difference. It would need proper scale though, it would be very interesting to know how many frames each far eastern factory produces, because that's probably the numbers you'd need to be talking.
Brant, we aren't set up for it, you can come and visit the workshop and then you will realise why 100 frames would take me all year and 1000 would be a lifetimes work.
High tech stuff is something the Chinese are getting very good at. They produce graduates with ambition in abundance so I think that counting on always being one step ahead in technological terms is a thing of the past.
In Europe the worker revolutions through the centuries have slowly improved working conditions. The last french socialist government gave us a 35h week. All very good, but under the current regime I can't see the chinese out on mass strikes and protests demanding a minimum wage, six weeks holiday, a 37h week, pood mensions and health care.
I therefore expect China to overtake us in the technology stakes and still benefit from a cheap labour pool for as long as the single-party communist regime lasts. Either we adopt protectionist policies to counter the chinese protectionism I've laready outlined or that balnce of trade graph I posted will keep on plunging.
More insults I see. Always a sign I'm on the right track.
They produce graduates with ambition in abundance so I think that counting on always being one step ahead in technological terms is a thing of the past
We will be ahead because we have nowhere else to go. All these businessmen and entrepreneurs are unlikely to just sit around going 'well that's that, then'. We're already ahead in high tech stakes - as they progress, so will we. They'll end up where we are, the world's cheap stuff will be made in Africa and we'll all be driving hovercars wearing silver jumpsuits.
Buy silver jumpsuit futures, now!
A positive for the British economy is that FTSE companies make so much of their money abroad. The negative is that ownership of those FTSE companies is slowly but steadily moving abroad too. Run atrade deficit and foreigners will have pounds intheri pockets, beware what they choose to buy.
We also have pounds in our pockets though Edukator.
Spend them wisely, Molgrips. How you and your countrymen do so will have more influence on your future than the way you vote.
The good thing about UK companies having their manufacturing done in the Far East is that they can spend a greater percentage of their investment on things like customer service.
Oh - that's not really working out either then.......
My chart shows that there are now 500 people working in a Chinese factory that could be working in a British factory.
Anything we can do they can do cheaper.
How are you going to resolve the difference between those two statements?
I really doubt there could be a UK factory established to turn out frames at the quality and price of those in the Far East. The economics are so dramatically against it you'd need a massive leap forward in efficient manufacturing technology, cheaper energy, a cheaper workforce, cheaper logistics, cheaper rent and a fair wind. I am baffled as to how anyone would think differently - all those big companies that do it for a living have gone there to manufacture on more than a whim.
Spend them wisely, Molgrips
I do my best!
The good thing about UK companies having their manufacturing done in the Far East is that they can spend a greater percentage of their investment on things like [s]customer service[/s] research and development
A few suggestions then:
A devaluation of the pound, euro and other eurozone currencies versus the yuan.
A transport green tax at the point of entry of goods into Europe paid to the EU thus ending the need for countries to pay for the EU. Paid on a kg x km basis depending on the means of transport. Paid by out-going tourists too on the basis of a weigh-in with their lugggage.
A reduction in taxes on work (NI etc). A minimum company tax rate of 25% across Europe with the tax payable at a national level. No more centralising profits in the country with the lowest tax rate.
Exoneration from local property taxes for manufacturing industries.
Some other sectors could be included such as renewalbles.
Interest free loans for manufacturing companies in which no one is paid more than 10 times the lowest paid worker and dividends are only paid once the loan has been paid back.
I have more but that'll do for now.
Did brant ever think because he was firewalled in china his post on STW would turn into a far eastern manufacturing thread??? Probably
I have to agree with molgrips We are good at high tech manufacturing and ideas ,the problem is the chinese have such a penchant to learn very quickly and deploy "our so called technology" to this end I think it puts companies off even considering development.
In further responses I have looked at this for a long time but from a tech angle as its the only advantage we could bring to the table for a while. We already have the technology so I don't think the odds are stacked against us significantly even for something as simple as 9 little tubes welded together.They have a lower labour rate which is n't the whole story
In looking at ways of producing a steel frame its perfectly feasable to buy a tube laser and never need to touch a tube also a robot to weld 3D cad and cam and a frame jig that's computer controlled allows this however say you got an order for 1000 frames even at 300 quid a time thats only 300k!!! (granted I am talking new machinery) well tbh I didnt cover the cost of the machinery and It would take some big balls to lay out that kind of money knowing you could be out of buisness in a couple of years unless you diversified into something else also
I spoke at length to Paul at Reynolds regarding their tube costs 853 for example ,I can make a carbon tube with the same mechanical properties for half than cost the Reynolds list shows an 853 down tube. When you see the cost of the 853 tube from Fairing its cheaper to ship it in from abroad and iirc the tube isn't shipped from here to there its made there but my memory is fuzzy on that one, when you do the sums you can't compete even at Reynolds UK 50+ pricing when you total the cost of tubing in 853 there's not much change from £200 so that's 200k gone in tubing on 1000 frames sure you can switch to 725 631 525 for cheaper bits but who wants that
You guys aren't interested in the fact the tube did the same job with slightly lower mechanical properties or elongation to failure being similar or even that you can take 100 tube weldments have them tested and see a variance of 35% across them depending on the weld rod used
These are details that only techie weirdos are interested in which is a small market or the kind of buzz that a custom framebuilder will try to heap on .
The frame factories have it dialled sure you could improve the quality and hype it to death eek a bit more ££ but they can manufacture something that does the job to a price and even when they have a somewhat ropey QC it still works out ok ,Its a collection of 9 tubes melted together painted and shipped in a box with your companies sticker on.
A few suggestions then:
And Brant can get those into place exactly how?
Are full stops cheaper overseas too?
Are full stops cheaper overseas too?
**** knows?
China will have a workers revolution, it is inevitable. They will also have a bust after their boom. The latter is likely to happen first, but could lead to the former.
Did they not already have a worker's revolution?
Exoneration from local property taxes for manufacturing industries.
Hmm, interesting. How does encouraging manufacturing fit in with your hard-line eco stance, Edukator? Surely manufacturing NEEDS to decrease because of the drain on resources? Not everything is recyclable.
Imagine a scenario where hardly anyone has cars, and all our IT and entertainment needs are met with a single personal device (not too far off now, actually) - that would result in far less stuff being manufactured, so how would that affect the global economy?
Compositepro - your carbon frames are cheaper than locally made steel? I have no problem with that 🙂 I would rather have a carbon frame tbh.