It’s coming, think the thinking is that it’ll be impossible to sell a home with an EPC over C from 2028 onwards.
Bollox
You won't be able to get a lot of homes anywhere near this standard in that time frame. The government isn't going to add to the cladding scandal by stopping another million moving.
I was reading that something like half our dwellings aren't suitable for ASHP retrofit.
My poorly insulated period terrace is probably one example. I'm not sure where one would fit it on a small property like mine. It would surely be noisy too.
Hydrogen also seems problematic given the low energy density, combustibility and need to run higher pressures. There are also big question-marks about how it's produced.
It’s coming, think the thinking is that it’ll be impossible to sell a home with an EPC over C from 2028 onwards
It would be outrageous if they applied that to existing stock. In general, building regs are not ex post facto.
Not everyone is flush with cash and many properties (particularly old ones) have a D rating or lower. It would be a good way for the government to get itself voted out.
If some government agency or fund is going to pay for it then different matter...
But hello scandal in the making as the usual cowboys get in on the act again like with blown cavity wall insulation.
Just moved in to a 1960s house which has no heating but is double glazed and has cavity wall insulation. It’s pretty good thermally.
Bet it isn't, not for what you're looking at. I have all that and more in my kids 60s terrace and it's still objectively shite. You need full external insulation (like 300mm thick extruded foam) all round, triple glazing and floor insulation, then you can start thinking about it seriously.
Or just build it with the insulation integrated into the wall in the first place.
It's time that we started mass production of skinny aerogel insulation ( U=0.015 )
I would always argue that something is better than nothing, and that perfect is the enemy of good..... but in this case, no.
This is just a splashy headline of Boris to have before COP26, and the whole country becomes extremely concerned about all things environmental for a few days/weeks. In announcing this, he gets to pretend that he's doing something - which makes it worse than doing nothing.
I'm afraid I also don't have time for "replace our existing housing stock" - it's just not going to happen.
Pragmatically, we need to increase building standards to force developers to produce better housing in the first place. Then commit (over decades) to innovate, fund and manufacture solutions to improve domestic energy efficiency. I dunno - maybe we could do this all in the UK, boosting the economy in the meantime - maybe this is where all the "green" jobs are coming from?
Heat pumps are part of that..... but maybe those wierdos gluing themselves to the M25 have got a point? Trouble is: insulation is not sexy.
Guys it’s not often Mefty and I agree but not only did we start agreeing, I agree with his clarifications.
When two idiots like us (I’m speaking for myself of course) are aligned there may well be some truth in it.
Whilst wholesale replacement of housing stock is impractical in those time scales it should be done when practical and if not mitigated as far as practicable.
So sod the single pane sash windows and period correct walls, get them insulated and glazed fit for this century.
Green is good eh. I've no idea where I'd stick a heat pump, it's huge. I saw the TV news last night. Thing is, our house is pretty energy efficient for heat, my gas is just £40 a month (less in summer) but that's my average, on a 25 year old Baxi (tiny little boiler). If the boiler broke, why the heck would a splurge say an additional £10k on a heat pump, when I'd never get that investment back. Be lucky if it saved me £10 a month in energy.
Pragmatically, we need to increase building standards to force developers to produce better housing in the first place.
I think this has been happening for new builds, no? Our house is 15 years old and is pretty well insulated for the most part. Of course it could be better, but perhaps brand new houses are, I don't know.
Been in new build with all this fancy crap and high epc. It is all green theatre and totally useless in most cases unless the building is wholly designed for it. Most new builds are built as cheaply as possibly out of polystyrene, with bad windows. Just look at the damp, mild and leaks of many affordable new builds from the last 10 yrs.
When people are cold they will simply buy a load of oil filled or other electric heaters.
Know way this is good for the environment.
Now if both ****tard government parties decided to go long nuclear or throw the money at some other crazy r&d that would actually make a difference I’m all in.
On the meantime are any of these heat pump co’s private and can we invest in them?
We still build houses in the same method as we have for 70+ years, two courses and a cavity. To modern standards we put some insulation in the cavity, but no testing to prove it is installed airtight.....
Construction overseas is totally different with formed concrete walls (airtight and high thermal mass) and huge insulation stuck to the outside. Finished with mechanical ventilation and tested for airtightness.
So, no we don't build well and imo nothing will change until the housing industry stop funding the government and are forced to change!
I think somebody has already summed up what is going to change - "blah, blah, blah".
No amount of tech will change the housing stock standard and that's the only area anyone seems to be interested in.
I was reading that something like half our dwellings aren’t suitable for ASHP retrofit.
I would think mine would be in this category. I have insulated it as well as I can given its a 150 yr old attic and thats made a huge difference but because its a listed building in a conservation area I cannot put structures on the roof so where does the heat pump go?
Well if your home isn’t properly energy efficient then I’m afraid your are not the solution you are the problem.
We’ve known for decades about this. But the UK treats houses as investments rather than dwellings so we’re ****ed (didn’t Germany go through an building stock upgrading process’s decade or two ago...?).
We are in a climate emergency, there isn’t time to **** about (or whinge).
didn’t Germany go through an building stock upgrading process’s decade or two ago…?
Germany has a lot more modern and recent buildings than we do. Funny that.
In a climate change emergency expending all your efforts and funds on theatre doesn’t even get you a faster horse when you need a jet.
How much carbon do you think it takes to make a heat pump. How much waste is going to be generated by throwing out perfectly good gas boilers.
If world decides to work together rather than on a per country basis it’s probably better to prioritise putting solar panels where the damn sun is. I.e Africa / Latam.
Minimising energy consumption is a win win.
Carrying on over consumption is a lose (for the planet).
big_n_daft
Free Member
It’s coming, think the thinking is that it’ll be impossible to sell a home with an EPC over C from 2028 onwards.Bollox
You won’t be able to get a lot of homes anywhere near this standard in that time frame. The government isn’t going to add to the cladding scandal by stopping another million moving.
never said this government will do it, it'll come eventually though.
Well if your home isn’t properly energy efficient then I’m afraid your are not the solution you are the problem.
My house is 160 years old, I really doubt any of the current houses being built will last that long. The embedded carbon in any rebuild will outweigh the heat loss
How much waste is going to be generated by throwing out perfectly good gas boilers.
None, if they are only replaced when they wear out. The intention is to ban new boilers, not scrap existing ones.
My house is 160 years old, I really doubt any of the current houses being built will last that long. The embedded carbon in any rebuild will outweigh the heat loss
Reuse of existing buildings in any improvement plan is the preferred option. For precisely this reason.
How do you proposed to achieve net zero?
This sums it up perfectly. Nice one Roger!
Nice piece of theatre. Some useful facts, some disinformation, obvious agenda, quite amusing.
So to do my house properly.
New windows with planitherm 6mm glass and a new door would be £7k, redoing the cavity wall insulation and regrouting the front £1.7k, installing solar roof and battery £17k, groundsource heatpump ~£25k, underfloor heating and insulation £13k, new rads upstairs £3k.
So - over £65k and the government are offering £5k huh? ...interesting.
That's a LOT of money.
We still build houses in the same method as we have for 70+ years, two courses and a cavity. To modern standards we put some insulation in the cavity, but no testing to prove it is installed airtight…..
When we built the workshop, which didn't have to meet any thermal regs, the BC inspector said he'd never seen anyone tape up all the Cellotex. I'd made the workshop pretty much airtight! Apparently no one else bothers....
What is the dis information?
@daffy 3k for rads? Are you buying cast iron designer stuff or do you have a small mansion?
My house is 160 years old, I really doubt any of the current houses being built will last that long. The embedded carbon in any rebuild will outweigh the heat loss
Reuse of existing buildings in any improvement plan is the preferred option. For precisely this reason.
How do you proposed to achieve net zero?
It's Schrödinger's post. It appears he's both right and wrong? What is the answer ?
@daffy 3k for rads? Are you buying cast iron designer stuff or do you have a small mansion
Unless you simply buying massive plain panel rads and eating up wall space ...the high output small rads get pricy fast. Dunno Bout you bit I have a 600mm square radiator in my bed room and not much wallspace to go bigger so if I go down the route of needing bigger rads it'll be pricy
Massive amount of b******t in that video.
How do you proposed to achieve net zero?
Firstly I'd completely rejig the building trades associations they are full of cowboys and snake oil salesmen
Create an accredited standard for working on older properties
Fund research into insulation of older properties and the management of damp
Create a chargeback loan system for the insulation work done to accredited standards with rock solid guarantees
Create incentives for local heat networks
Etc
As above, high output, small footprint rads are between £370 and £900. For the 6 upstairs rooms, it gets expensive quickly.
Not sure about retrofitting, but we’re in a 5 year old property that was built around the usage of an ASHP. Heavily insulated, properly spec’d kit (pump, radiators, water tank) etc for a 4 bedroom home - and we have no issues. It no more expensive than our previous house. The water is suitably hot - and we’re able to use an electric shower at the same time as the heating is on.
The downsides are once the hot water runs out we need to wait for the next cycle to fill the tank. As you can’t heat the tank and radiators simultaneously. However I think we’ve only run out of hot water once.
You also need to leave the system on a low tick over during the winter months rather than expecting it to heat the house as rapidly as a gas boiler.
I can understand the backlash against them. But there really are a huge amount of untruths being bounded around.
It’s Schrödinger’s post. It appears he’s both right and wrong? What is the answer ?
My house is 160 years old, I really doubt any of the current houses being built will last that long. The embedded carbon in any rebuild will outweigh the heat loss
Reuse of existing buildings in any improvement plan is the preferred option. For precisely this reason.
Try reading the bit you quoted... 🤪
The embedded carbon for new build is higher than reuse. Reuse would always be the preferred option (don’t forget the mantra Reduce Recycle Reuse, it’s just as valid here).
My understanding is that the best minds in science determined a couple of years that we had 10 years to short our shit out with respect to limiting global warming to avoid significant adverse results to the planet (and human existence) so the clock is ticking.
Fossil fuel use is highlighted as a particular issue.
My question was what the person intended to do about an 160 yo building that is presumably less than the required standard to (in the simplest form) eradicate the use of fossil fuels.
The answer to the problem is not the statement ‘my house is 160 years old’, that’s a statement. I was waiting for the ...and...
We all have a part to play. I suspect that at some point the taxation will swing to gas (the polluter pays) and force the situation that way.
Normally you would expect the carrot before the stick but, well, our government doesn’t really do joined up and thought through, does it?
Massive amount of b******t in that video.
Hyperbole yes, his opinions, yes. Bullshit, not really.
Hyperbole yes, his opinions, yes. Bullshit, not really.
Sadly, he’s more right than wrong. And there will be a lot of installs that plays out as he predicts. Sizing and location of heat pumps is critical. It’s a sticking plaster solution.
The actual problem is the shit building stock. It is not fit for purpose/the current situation. There’s a reason why buildings are better (and that heat pumps work) in Scandinavia and it was because they were forward looking. And we only like to look back...
Again, we have put value on the thing rather than its suitability.
My house is 160 years old, I really doubt any of the current houses being built will last that long.
Ugh not this again. I bet they do. We've been building shitty boxes since the 60s, they're still standing. And they are much worse than modern new builds FWIW.
My house is 160 years old, I really doubt any of the current houses being built will last that long.
Ugh not this again. I bet they do. We’ve been building shitty boxes since the 60s, they’re still standing. And they are much worse than modern new builds FWIW.
Hmm, recent new builds might achieve a better level on insulation, but IMO that's more or less the only thing going for many of them.... and it's frequently achieved at the expense of window area. I'd sooner have a 60/70s house myself.
Evening all, I am a happy owner of an Air Source Heat Pump,now entering the second Winter.
This replaced a gas system in a detached house built in 2013, well insulated but 'standard' rather than any special build. The heat pump, installation etc was free as part of a trial installation scheme in Scotland so very good financially. We would have upgraded to an ASHP when the gas system died but did it earlier with such a good deal.
Our Winter energy use is less than half the kWh of previous winters so very happy with that.
Electricity is also less carbon intensive than gas and likely to get better.
Cost of electricity per kWh is higher than gas but I have no gas connection or standing charge to pay so overall I have not noticed an increase in cost overall.
House is nice and warm, cost is similar and CO2 is significantly less, sounds good to me.
The heat pump technology is mature and works well if used correctly.
If specified, installed or operated badly it may not be suitable as for any other technology.
Modern heat pumps are not noisy, they are designed for use in residential areas. We have a neighbour who complains about everything and she has not noticed any noise!
For those who are saying that heat pumps are no good because your particular house is poorly insulated I would advise trying to sort the insulation, grants may be available. This is always the place to start on energy efficiency.
Heat pumps are not a cure all, we need to make major changes as a society however I consider them to be better on balance than just burning old sea creatures.....
The heat pump, installation etc was free
Which is the point.
We are being asked to pay £10 to £15k more than a replacement gas boiler for a system which is not better and arguably worse than gas.
Irc,
I am not saying it is easy, simple etc. More support is needed.
The key to me is to define 'worse.
The scientific consensus is that we need to change, doing nothing is to jeopardise the future of our children.
he scientific consensus is that we need to change
Actually it is China etc that needs to change. We could be net zero tomorrow and it would make no difference.
Reducing CO2 is like arms reduction. Pointless unless we all do it. Last I heard the Chinese and Russian leaders were not attending COP26. China plans to keep increasing emissions until 2030 at least.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-57483492
something I am missing here. Heat pumps you get out of them 4x the energy you put it - is that right? so if electricity is 4x the cost of mains gas you end up with the same amount of heat per pound?
Actually it is China etc that needs to change. We could be net zero tomorrow and it would make no difference.
So that makes it ok not to make an effort ?
something I am missing here. Heat pumps you get out of them 4x the energy you put it – is that right? so if electricity is 4x the cost of mains gas you end up with the same amount of heat per pound?
Yes. Efficiency drops like a stone during prolonged cold spells.
Waiting to see how my folks get on in central France with theirs . Their gov installed their system for 300euro yesterday.
ta
Heat pumps do indeed produce more heat output than electrical input. Closer to 3 than 4 stated by TJ.
This reduces energy used significantly for the same warm house but does not reduce running cost as elec is more expensive.
That may, and should, change if charges on gas increase as has been rumoured.
My view is that we all have a responsibility and should lead by example. Waiting on others to move before we think about it makes no sense to me.
We are planning an extension and trying to get my head around binning off the gas boiler at the same time instead of just moving it. Issue we have is working out if a heat pump is right for us and if there is another route we can go. The boiler is currently the only thing using gas in the house. We are also getting PV+battery so that will help make the whole setup more efficient. In theory, once all fitted we could use the house as normal and not worry about when we use energy but it'll be a circa £20-25k project so not inexpensive.
So that makes it ok not to make an effort ?
There is a Chinese proverb that says when the the parents cannot deal with external pressure they blame it on their own kids with the result of "close door beat own children".
What is happening in the west now is exactly that ... punish own people first to set an example for others while others just laugh at their stupidity for beating their own kids.
Yes, making an effort but a futile one when the vast forests are destroyed in other parts of the world and leaving nothing to capture the carbon whatever, then the west force their own people to change their habit for others (the polluters).
As above, high output, small footprint rads are between £370 and £900. For the 6 upstairs rooms, it gets expensive quickly.
All my rads fit under the windows and cost nothing like that. I honestly had no idea they got that expensive, we're in a mid 60s build so obviously have relatively big windows.
The things you learn...
china have seen the localized results their industrial growth. Seems to me like they're doing better than most.
Canadian Gvmnt for example are doing a pretty shitty job. $18billion in pandemic support to the fossil fuel industry in free money. Spending to expand the devastating tar sands, adding/increasing oil and gas pipelines, giving tax breaks to new fracked LNG projects that probably wont ever happen and pushing ahead with un needed c02 mega dam monsters for that same industry that wont use it, making hydro power more expensive to produce than it can be sold for.
bonkers.
Here again, there is encouraging news. China is getting greener at a faster rate than any other country, largely as a result of its forestry programmes designed to reduce soil erosion and pollution.
- IRC's bbc article linked above
But China!
(ignoring the fact that some of the supply problems we are having are down to a massive industrial shutdown down to a lack of power which is conversely down to the government not allowing a sizeable number of coal power stations to operate. But, you know, China.)
All my rads fit under the windows and cost nothing like that. I honestly had no idea they got that expensive, we’re in a mid 60s build so obviously have relatively big windows.
The things you learn…
It's not the physical size that makes the cost . Easy and cheap to get small double panel rads but unless your currently using small single panels to heat your room (unlikely ) then even that won't be enough to cope with heating with the cooler circulation temps
It's the size Vs output ratio.
Energy (2020) "China posted the largest increase (2.1%), one
of only a handful of countries where energy demand grew last year."
Coal -
" China and Malaysia were notable exceptions, increasing their
consumption by 0.5 EJ and 0.2 EJ respectively"
It’s the size Vs output ratio.
Yeah I know, I'm rocking double panel rads throughout with convectors and they aren't exactly small. I'm guessing (or hoping) yours are more efficient for a given size.