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Token gesture, which makes little impact but will help some reasonably affluent people install heat pumps so that the industry can understand the real problems with widespread heatpump retrofits and start to design solutions for them - doesn't seem like too bad an idea...
e.g. if
They’re ugly, noisy, things and there’s no way local councils will allow them in AONB or listed buildings.
...will either the suppliers have to find quieter engineering, less obtrusive designs or councils have planning exemptions imposed on them...?
Would I rather we spent £450M on helping the poorest get more efficient heating - yes. But I don't see it as an either or.
will either the suppliers have to find quieter engineering, less obtrusive designs or councils have planning exemptions imposed on them…?
To be fair that should apply to windows and doors on listed buildings as well if they are to be retained as dwellings and not reclassified as museums.....
That would be a low hanging fruit to improve significant quantities of older housing stock.
Time to renew our housing stock with uber insulated and efficient buildings.
Basics like solar gain, terraced or flats to be dominant new form of housing, super insulation and air tight, draft lobbies and covered outdoor drying spaces, cycle storage front and centre for all, using greenery to reduce pollution, slow windspeed, shade in summer, etc etc.
Note I didn't suggest buying another piece of technology to support us carrying on as usual.
I live in An AONB which for good measure is also a conservation area. I’ve got Air Source installed without any of issues. Make of that as you will.
If installed correctly Air Source provides an excellent method for hot water and heating. It does seem a lot of comments are from the I’ll informed who have got a mate of a mate who spends £1k a week on electricity blah blah. House is 4 bedrooms and total energy usage (we only have electricity) is 9100 kWh per annum.
Saying that installation requires a lot of plant to operate (mine includes 3x500l tanks in the loft), ideally oversized rads, good level of insulation and a suitable location for the outside unit. So it’s certainly not for everyone.
They’re ugly, noisy, things and there’s no way local councils will allow them in AONB
Well I live in an AONB and run the shower and heating together; large water tank required.
I understand the general principle of these devices, but is the intention that they will completely replace standard gas/oil fired boilers, or supplement them?
While I'm sure this technology has its place, I can't help but feel the government is going for the 'sexy, new tech' solutions (I realise these are neither exactly sexy or new tech, but....), rather than getting the existing buildings to require less energy in the first place through better insulation, windows etc.
If you cut down the amount of energy required, then you don't have to work so hard to adequately heat the same houses.
Government are hoping to shift the non-commodity costs from electric to gas over the next decade and think they can drive down the cost of heat pump by 30-50%, so by 2030 the financial benefit should of heavily swung from gas to electric heating
super insulation and air tight
I see this mentioned a lot. I live in an 80s house, have added loft insulation etc, but have windows in most rooms open just a crack all year round as it gets stuffy otherwise (pets, children, cooking smells etc). How does this work with an airtight house?
Now I’m not an expert in this but, I think there are mumblings about shifting some of the green energy taxation from electricity (where it mainly is today) to gas (where it mainly isn’t) reflecting the CO2 emissions.
The burning of gas to make electricity would still get taxed an therefore green electricity would be naturally cheaper than carboniferous electricity.
How does this work with an airtight house?
You close the windows and use your preferred method of heat recovery ventilation.
The difference is insulation and air-tightness –
Both difficult to do in a 1860’s end terrace with a massive gable end wall, stone floors, high ceilings, uninsulated attic room.
Similar here though we don't have an attic room and so have insulated up there. We also have access under the house so have managed underfloor insulation. In addition though we have 4 oval and 1 rectangular leaded glass windows in the gable wall.
We had a break in a couple of years ago and I asked the guy who came out for a quote on the windows (he had a business encasing stained glass into custom double glazing units). Off the top of his head he came out with 5k per window. Then we'd just need to put an artifical skin or something on the outside walls to get up to some sort of workable spec for an ASHP. Most houses on our street appear to be built similarly. Looks to me like we'd be paying extension prices to switch away from a gas boiler though without the added bonus of actually having an extension built. There is the slight issue of where that sort of money is going to come from too.
Based on a data set of what -august to October on one of the warmest years for a long time ?
It does when we’re comparing our old house in Hampshire with the new one on the West Coast.
The in-laws renovated a house, insulating it to the hilt, had ASHP installed, cost them a fortune to run, would of been far cheaper to go with oil.
They're part way through a new build now and are going with GSHP this time.
As mentioned, ASHP needs underfloor/larger radiators with larger pipe work (micro-bore is no use). That £5k isn't going that far is it.
the air conditioner comment is related to air-air heat pumps that are 'reversible'. The most comkon ASHP are air/water that heat radiators and cant be used as air con.
just more bullshit form the heat pump industry that isnt triaged out by the media as they themselves dont really know what they are reporting on.
Heat pump design and specification is a very technical process that needs to be done right to maximise their efficiencies. until we get a 'fabric first' approach to the government policy that deliveres a suitable housing stock, any mention of £5K per house is just rubbish.
Internal/external wall insulation, triple glazing and MVHR will likely be needed in any house built pre-2006, and in some since depending on the builders standards.
once you've done all that, you can get a heat pump to work efficiently. it will be cheaper than the original gas system but only because you've reduced the amount of energy needed.
The most comkon ASHP are air/water that heat radiators and cant be used as air con.
I wondered how this works. Does it make your radiators really cold? 🙂
I have a ashp installed, it’s utterly ****in useless, this idea if carried out before bringing insulation up to modern standards will do the grand sum of **** all good
The housing partnership that took over Dumfries & Galloway council housing stock received a green initiative grant to remove coal/open fires from the houses that were not on mains gas, aka greenwashing. They claimed it would be cheaper to run and provide sustainable heating and hot water solutions. Utter ****ing bullshit dressed up as "look at how green and environmental our housing stock is"..............I'm convinced someone on the board of DGHP got backhanders to ensure the refit went ahead.
In 2013 DGHP removed my open fire with back boiler/6 radiators which gave enough heat to have windows open in winter whilst sitting in pants and fitted a Daikin altherma heat pump system and new radiators (undersized) to my uninsulated and draughty late 80’s built 1 bed bungalow in Galloway, part of some bullshit government scheme to claim they were going green, there is no gas supply where I live. My electricity costs went from £10ish to £40+ per week in winter as the system doesn’t work in low temps nor with the build quality in the house. Two years ago they fitted a Tesla power wall battery to attempt to offset the running costs, saved a couple of £ but still bloody useless.
So I knocked back through the bricked up fireplace and fitted a wood burning stove/lined the chimney as I have access to unlimited seasoned logs from a friends farm/forest. This caused much upset from the housing association and they threatened me with eviction, I threatened them with an independent energy study on my home, they shut up pretty quick.
In a new house built to modern insulation standards with underfloor heating I imagine they are a great choice but not in a 40yr old draughty poorly constructed and insulated bungalow, especially as I have secondary progressive MS and need heat & warmth otherwise my muscles go into spasm (clonus).
Talking of modernising housing stock, there's an interesting rule in Ireland. All houses are rated as BER [letter], with BER A being the best and most energy efficient and BER F being most old draughty places. Oil heating is incredibly prevalent here, even in the cities.
But if you're doing any sort of renovation work to "more than 25% of the envelope" of a house, you have to bring the whole building up to BER B2 standard, which is getting close to passive house level.
Interestingly, an architect friend suggests that ASHP counts a lot in the tallying up of points for for your BER rating though, because it's counted as "efficient". So even though it's expensive, not very good etc, the incentive is there to gradually bring the old housing stock up to standards, including ASHP.
But it all does rather smack of how the EU incentivises diesel cars because they're "green", using a measure of green that completely ignores the fact that you can actually taste the fumes after you've stood behind a diesel car for 30s...
I'm on the right thread, yeah?
^ that Irish rule is the kind of thinking we need.
Drafty, uninsulated, damp and oversized house issues need sorting by reducing need for heat, not throwing more energy from another technological wonder.
We need to be replacing housing stock that isn't able to be upgraded. Upgrading what we can. Building new amazing levels of low energy need.
Here is another thought - why are we using the energy companies to fund a reduction in energy use? It's a bit like asking a drug dealer to reduce demand - they are selling something that isn't good for us, we are addicted too, and they have every reason to thwart and profit from the government plans.
It does when we’re comparing our old house in Hampshire with the new one on the West Coast.
Arguably energy use over a period where heating hasn't been needed due to high ambient temperature and a super energy Effcient house Coupled with a ashp that could be 200% efficient in high ambient....once we have some good old prolonged Scottish weather it'll be relevent data. As it stands you could have been heating your house with anything the costs would be minimal.
matt_outandabout
Full Member
^ that Irish rule is the kind of thinking we need.
It's coming, think the thinking is that it'll be impossible to sell a home with an EPC over C from 2028 onwards. It's in that 6th carbon budget doc if I remember right. Whether the tories implement it or not is another story I guess.
Now I’m not an expert in this but, I think there are mumblings about shifting some of the green energy taxation from electricity (where it mainly is today) to gas (where it mainly isn’t) reflecting the CO2 emissions.
I'm pretty sure it is all in the electricity price, the RHI is the only one of the incentives that came out of central taxation I believe. This gave rise to the unintended consequence that incentives for other green technologies actually made Heat Pumps less attractive as they increased ratio of the electricity price to the gas price which is a key input into an evaluation. I helped raise some money for some commercial GSHP projects years ago and I made this very point to the GSHP company at the time. I think the shift is likely to be to the gas price thus raising gas heating costs but reducing electricity costs but there is no firm proposal that I have seen.
@Mefty - I think we agree.
I was referring to the 25% of your typical electricity bill that is environmental taxation. Around 2.5% of your gas bill is environmental taxation.
This balance needs to shift to reflect the environmental cost of each energy vector.
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/infographic-bills-prices-and-profits
Punish own people to save the world come to mind with all this environmental agenda. Problem is it is not going to make much difference with all the forest gone in other part of the world.
Got to start somewhere chewkw my young innocent.
Got to start somewhere chewkw my young innocent.
Sometime naive thinking is just naive.
Yes, "a journey start with a single step" all that according to Confucius but in this case the single step goes straight into nowhere when the technology is no even proven. If the technology is proven there is no need to government or whatever environmentalist to intervene.
Just moved in to a 1960s house which has no heating but is double glazed and has cavity wall insulation. It’s pretty good thermally. Scoping the options at present and it’s a nightmare, it’s like the wild west. I’ve been quoted anything from 10-18k for an ASHP and who can I trust to design and fit it properly rather than to take my money and run leaving me with a very expensive PoS? I’m deeply suspicious given the differing advice and costs. Anyone know anyone who can give trustworthy advice, design and costs in the London area? Also, anyone experience of/feedback on aircon units fitted to an ASHP for heating rather than radiators or underfloor heating?
chewkw
Free Member
Got to start somewhere chewkw my young innocent.Sometime naive thinking is just naive.
Yes, “a journey start with a single step” all that according to Confucius but in this case the single step goes straight into nowhere when the technology is no even proven. If the technology is proven there is no need to government or whatever environmentalist to intervene.
tbh the journey started 20 years ago. It's really all just a discussion about how now adays. cause it is happening here like it or not. and also perhaps not at the pace some would like.
Drafty, uninsulated, damp and oversized house issues need sorting by reducing need for heat, not throwing more energy from another technological wonder.
We need to be replacing housing stock that isn’t able to be upgraded. Upgrading what we can. Building new amazing levels of low energy need.
So, how is the housing stock going to be replaced when there are people occupying it? Are we going to get spectacular successes like the complete levelling of whole communities of terraced streets in northern cities, then walking away leaving vast tracts of wasteland when the money to build the sparkly new houses evaporates.
What about all the 30’s semi’s like mine? It’s a solidly built house, and it has loft insulation, and there was cavity insulation installed by our gas supplier, which ended up being free after they made a cockup of the order, but fortunately not the installation.
If the government offered me new, better double or triple-glazing and doors, I’d snap their hands off!
Also, anyone experience of/feedback on aircon units fitted to an ASHP for heating rather than radiators
You need an air-to-air ASHP option plus these need to be hooked up to a mechanical ventilation system which is a big box in a cupboard somewhere plus ducting to be connected throughout which recycles the hot or cold air. You’ll also need some form of hot water generation.
I think we agree.
I certainly wasn't disagreeing I was trying to put more context because you had used the word taxation, as Ofgem does. Economically what has been passed onto consumers is taxation but it has been used to pay incentives to investors, often HNWs. It has been pretty regressive taxation and I am not sure how many realise that. Re transfer of some of the burden to gas, I am skeptical of singling out gas, my gut feel is that a more general carbon/pollution tax makes more sense.
mefty
Free MemberI am skeptical of singling out gas, my gut feel is that a more general carbon/pollution tax makes more sense.
Not a fan of this, as it's always the lower end that gets hit with the financial penalties due to a lack of funds to buy the more economical, or environmentally friendly equipment.
As for this whole heat pump funding, it's just the usual government trick of throwing a bit of money at a problem and selling it as something to help them hit their 2035 targets, it's way underfunded and underplanned for what they're after, it won't help those at the lower end either, not many are going to rip out their gas boilers and pay still have to pay more than a new gas central heating system would cost, but the positives are it will push the industry to focus on this, and hopefully push this type of solution by making the industry invest more money into progressing it.
Like everything that is a the early adoption phase, it's more expensive, it's less reliable and it's probably not going to be for all, same with electric cars, solar panels, etc, etc, it's not a one size fits all solution at the start, but hopefully by 2035 it'll be mature enough to actually be viable for most households.
it’s more expensive, it’s less reliable
Mine has a 7 year warranty and requires zero maintenance in that time.
It's only for 90,000 houses so I bet this scheme had been planned ages ago - BoJo just needed something to talk about at Cop26 as he'd not done any prep (again).
It’s coming, think the thinking is that it’ll be impossible to sell a home with an EPC over C from 2028 onwards.
Bollox
You won't be able to get a lot of homes anywhere near this standard in that time frame. The government isn't going to add to the cladding scandal by stopping another million moving.
I was reading that something like half our dwellings aren't suitable for ASHP retrofit.
My poorly insulated period terrace is probably one example. I'm not sure where one would fit it on a small property like mine. It would surely be noisy too.
Hydrogen also seems problematic given the low energy density, combustibility and need to run higher pressures. There are also big question-marks about how it's produced.
It’s coming, think the thinking is that it’ll be impossible to sell a home with an EPC over C from 2028 onwards
It would be outrageous if they applied that to existing stock. In general, building regs are not ex post facto.
Not everyone is flush with cash and many properties (particularly old ones) have a D rating or lower. It would be a good way for the government to get itself voted out.
If some government agency or fund is going to pay for it then different matter...
But hello scandal in the making as the usual cowboys get in on the act again like with blown cavity wall insulation.
Just moved in to a 1960s house which has no heating but is double glazed and has cavity wall insulation. It’s pretty good thermally.
Bet it isn't, not for what you're looking at. I have all that and more in my kids 60s terrace and it's still objectively shite. You need full external insulation (like 300mm thick extruded foam) all round, triple glazing and floor insulation, then you can start thinking about it seriously.
Or just build it with the insulation integrated into the wall in the first place.
It's time that we started mass production of skinny aerogel insulation ( U=0.015 )
I would always argue that something is better than nothing, and that perfect is the enemy of good..... but in this case, no.
This is just a splashy headline of Boris to have before COP26, and the whole country becomes extremely concerned about all things environmental for a few days/weeks. In announcing this, he gets to pretend that he's doing something - which makes it worse than doing nothing.
I'm afraid I also don't have time for "replace our existing housing stock" - it's just not going to happen.
Pragmatically, we need to increase building standards to force developers to produce better housing in the first place. Then commit (over decades) to innovate, fund and manufacture solutions to improve domestic energy efficiency. I dunno - maybe we could do this all in the UK, boosting the economy in the meantime - maybe this is where all the "green" jobs are coming from?
Heat pumps are part of that..... but maybe those wierdos gluing themselves to the M25 have got a point? Trouble is: insulation is not sexy.
Guys it’s not often Mefty and I agree but not only did we start agreeing, I agree with his clarifications.
When two idiots like us (I’m speaking for myself of course) are aligned there may well be some truth in it.
Whilst wholesale replacement of housing stock is impractical in those time scales it should be done when practical and if not mitigated as far as practicable.
So sod the single pane sash windows and period correct walls, get them insulated and glazed fit for this century.
Green is good eh. I've no idea where I'd stick a heat pump, it's huge. I saw the TV news last night. Thing is, our house is pretty energy efficient for heat, my gas is just £40 a month (less in summer) but that's my average, on a 25 year old Baxi (tiny little boiler). If the boiler broke, why the heck would a splurge say an additional £10k on a heat pump, when I'd never get that investment back. Be lucky if it saved me £10 a month in energy.
Pragmatically, we need to increase building standards to force developers to produce better housing in the first place.
I think this has been happening for new builds, no? Our house is 15 years old and is pretty well insulated for the most part. Of course it could be better, but perhaps brand new houses are, I don't know.