I'm with Mefty completely on this one, his understanding of the subject at hand is very good. I'm an atheist as well and I'm finding myself agreeing with him the more I read around the subject.
I don't think evolution is incompatible with Christian faith at all.
overly sure WTF the pope is trying to say but it is not correct from an evolutionary standpoint
Eh? There's nothing in there that contradicts evoloution, just determinism if you're a physicist who believes there's an underlying pattern to quantum mechanics.
it not really surprising someone religious knows more about religion than someone who is not religious.
I still think cougar has a point.
There's nothing in there that contradicts evoloution
Apart from the bit where god made humans and the earth was made from [gods i assume ] love.
Apart from the bit where god made humans and the earth was made from [gods i assume ] love.
He doesn't really implicitly say that god created humans does he, he's basically saying that he set off a chain of events that led to our creation through evolution. That doesn't contradict the basic tenant of evolution at all really.
I think the third instalment of the bible trilogy will be the best.
In summary.
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Our new profit
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Just kidding,
Civilisation would have long destroyed its self by then.
I'm sure I mentioned the contributions of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas in a previous religion thread but clearly my remarks fell on stony ground
Yeah.. Every time we do this we get some great contributions from our well informed residents and each time the everyone seems to forget what they've read and we start from scratch.
Yeah.. Every time we do this we get some great contributions from our well informed residents and each time the everyone seems to forget what they've read and we start from scratch.
Maybe we're just reinterpreting them?
I think these threads do gradually move forward. Certainly, if you look at recent ones compared to a few years ago.
He says says explicitly and more than once.He doesn't really implicitly say that god created humans does he
> http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/god-is-not-a-magician-pope-says-christians-should-believe-in-evolution-and-big-bang/
He [ god] created human beings
That doesn't contradict the basic tenant of evolution at all really.
“God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life,” the pope said. “Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”
Have you read the full article?
Someone started it - it was created and it powered by love , if this does not contradict evolution it certainly re writes it.
@ mike these threads are less shouty and each thread seems to bring out at least one person of faith to argue their case. No one convinces anyone of anything as we all know all the arguments and have made our choice
No one convinces anyone of anything as we all know all the arguments and have made our choice
They've changed my views.
Someone started it - it was created and it powered by love
This is what lots of Christians have been saying for ages. Once you decide that Genesis is allegorical you can agree with science but say that God steered things in mysterious ways. The God Of The (Increasingly Small) Gaps becomes a steering force for the science.
So from what I can gather the christian faith can be pretty much whatever you interpret it as, the bible can be interpreted to be entirely compatible with anything science learns, in fact you can even sometimes clearly show that it in fact predicted it and finally the pope can follow the current Zeitgiest and change doctrine to try and stay relevant and that's all fine. Funny this isn't what I was taught for 10 years as a very active member of the church.
OK then, glad I'm not a believer I'd have trouble keeping up with what I ought to believe.
“God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life,” the pope said. “Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.
This seems like a pretty scientific claim to me I assume he has proof?
molgrips - MemberYeah.. Every time we do this we get some great contributions from our well informed residents and each time the everyone seems to forget what they've read and we start from scratch.
Which is why I've pretty much given up on these threads.
The prime example in this one being from yourself:
molgrips - Member[b]
Maybe if they focussed on the being nice to each other bit and let the scientists do the hard sums we might get somewhere.
[/b]That's what they do nowadays generally.
I'd love to have a sensible discussion about religion on here.
Give us a shout when you genuinely want to do so and I'll be happy to oblige.
im with the Other 100% of this planet as in I DONT REALLY KNOW! there are theories and beliefs BUT they are just what some people think.
Pint? 😆
To digress: thanks for all the name checks. I feel truly humbled.*
Back on subject: In my opinion, from observation, the reason why otherwise intelligent-seeming people believe in religious stuff is usually down to three things.
1: Indoctrination as children (cementing in the belief before the development of adult critical thinking kicks in).
2: Extreme grief leading to the grasping of the last remaining straw.
3: Mental breakdown (eg: the conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus).
Carry on.
* Other offers may vary.
You forgot societal pressure.
And a lack of balanced scientific education.
But most of all, you forgot human nature.
Believing in something pleasant with no basis in fact is a lot easier than confronting reality.
And do us a favour?
If your going to behave unpleasantly toward people, don't complain when they mention it.
You know how you come across.
We know you know.
The false outrage doesn't suit you.
I got from the article that the current scientific explanation of how we came about is true but god started it and it was all him.
But does he believe we are the finished product or merely at a stage some where along the line.
And I got that god was a force rather than a being so that with my other point above questions whether we were made in gods image although I know if that was meant literally anyway.
we were mad in gods image
I think that speaks for the fundamentalist/extremist religious views
And do us a favour?
I see you're comfortable being the unelected spokesperson for everybody. I'm not sure all would be happy with your representation.
It IS big of you, however.
Unfortunately, you're not a moderator so I shall ignore your advice and carry on doing exactly as I please. Deal with it or not, as you wish.
Societal pressure. I'm not convinced that this brings about sincere believers, just those paying lip service as a means of avoiding censure.
Lack of science based education - see my point 2.
Human nature - see my point 2. Again.
You forgot societal pressure.
And a lack of balanced scientific education.
But most of all, you forgot human nature.
Most of my gfs professors at Oxford Uni were scientists and also christians.
I know someone has attempted studies on this, and there is a lot of arguing over the figures, but there are plenty of christians out there with a scientific education, Francis Collins perhaps being the most well known.
😀
It was the Northern 'us'.
Which means me.
Unfortunately, you're not a moderator so I shall ignore your advice and carry on doing exactly as I please. Deal with it or not, as you please.
I'm merely pointing out that getting all shirty when your deliberately
robust posts are taken as such could make you look like a bit of a knob.
badnewz - MemberMost of my gfs professors at Oxford Uni were scientists and also christians.
Bet they were human too.
A large proportion of humanity seems to require the irrationality of blind faith in a creator.
The rest find something else equally irrational to believe in.
Sometimes more dangerous, sometimes less.
I don't believe in god, but hope to be proved wrong.
Once you decide that Genesis is allegorical you can agree with science but say that God steered things in mysterious ways
Indeed you can apparently reverses your position on the bible and creation and the tenants of your faith and still maintain its true and god did it.
Faith is an amazing thing.
Faith is an amazing thing.
Not as amazing as pies though
Why is it that the faithful are happy to debate anything other than their evidence? I've had and seen numerous discussions on faith and never once has anyone engaged on the topic of their proof for the existence of god, they often claim it's not important or say they focus more on how they live their lives in faith etc etc, this seems weird to me. If there is a [i]personal[/i] god in the way they describe then the universe is a completely different place to the one I like to think it is.
It's a big claim so why do we never see the proof?
More pies please.
[i]Actual[/i] pies, please.
Drawing of an actual pie.
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It's a big claim so why do we never see the proof?
Who'd like to take this one? Anybody? 😆
Not as amazing as pies though
Pies and goodwill to all men.
Can I decline the goodwill and have extra pies?
never once has anyone engaged on the topic of their proof for the existence of god,
That is why they have faith
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
they accept they have no proof in the sense they and we mean it for everything else we "believe".
They cannot prove it.
You cannot prove a negative either so we have a stalemate of faith v no evidence
Pick a side.
Can I have a crumble - its getting colder and in these climes I prefer to eat a crumble with some custard.
it either that or this goody
imagine wheat and vegetable protein in a water based pastry ...nom nom nom
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Faith is an amazing thing.
Sure is
You should get involved, check it out for yourself.
Go to a Church, a Synagogue, a Temple, how about a Mosque ? ... for say... I dunno... a dozen weeks ?
Report back with what you find from your own personnal experiences.
Not sure any of the pies will be any good... if the weak tea is anything to go by... although did have a good bacon butty once.
imagine wheat and vegetable protein in a water based pastry ...nom nom nom
I think somewhere I just heard the faint sound of Binners exploding.
It's not really a stalemate though is it? If we had to prove every negative we'd be here a long time (Russell's teapot etc) the burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the person making the claim otherwise we'd never establish truths we can rely on, we'd end up making stuff up and people would abuse things....oh right...
How does the New Pope's scientific bent fit with him [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/the-pope/11193681/Pope-Francis-praises-exorcists-for-combating-the-Devils-works.html ]praising a group of exorcists for their work in combating Satan[/url]?
They'd have to get from Crawley to Wapping before the pies got cold and in time for lunch.
Perhaps if I accepted the goodwill for less pies, jesus would miraculously collapse time for me.
All together now: "What friend we have in Allah, all the little children of the world..."
the burden of proof ALWAYS lies with the person making the claim
It does, but the flaw in that argument is that it assumes proof is required or desired. "Faith" replaces that, the answer to "you can't prove it" is "correct, and?"
Go to a Church, a Synagogue, a Temple, how about a Mosque ? ... for say... I dunno... a dozen weeks ?Report back with what you find from your own personnal experiences.
Did that when the attempt was being made to indoctrinate me when I was about 12.
Thought it was bullshit then. Still do.
So you still think like a 12 year old ?
Not moved on?
Not evolved your thinking with maturity in the last 30 odd years?
🙄
JY - looking at that picture I felt like I did when I found out [s]God[/s] santa wasn't real.
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How could you? Wheres the humanity?
Surely that abomination finishes this debate once and for all? If that can exist, then there is no God!
Ah Binbins, you just need an open mind.
Faith is an amazing thing.
Sure isYou should get involved, check it out for yourself.
Go to a Church, a Synagogue, a Temple, how about a Mosque ? ... for say... I dunno... a dozen weeks ?
Report back with what you find from your own personnal experiences.
I have 23 years experience of close involvement with an Anglican church. I met my (now) wife via the youth group. We attended several youth events, including ones where Steve Chalke talked, and where the "Toronto blessing" filled the room and Spring Harvest. I got confirmed. At no point did I see or experience anything that suggested to me that it was true.
We were married in the church, and I attended on Sundays for about a decade while our kids were young. I helped run the tech desk, and was on the rota for serving coffee after the service. I count several ordained people among my friends/acquaintances. My wife did a couple of turns on the PCC, completed a short theology course and is employed as a school chaplain. At no point did I see or experience anything that suggested to me that it was true.
For a bunch of people who supposedly believe that they have a personal relationship with the almighty creator of the universe, they have a surprising number of petty arguments about unimportant things. Very few of them think particularly deeply about their faith.
I have seen a huge range of views and opinions within just that one denomination. I count some of them as friends, and get on very well with them. Some of them are truly awful people.
Report back with what you find from your own personnal experiences.
What makes you think i have not done it? I thought it was just us who did the patronising?
god also seems to send spectacularly different messages to those who do find it...just saying like. If it was real I would expect somethign approaching unanimity/agreement with those of faith.
Not evolved your thinking with maturity in the last 30 odd years?
Yes. It's evolved into an even firmer disbelief in obvious bullshit.
To save all this time and energy squabbling, can we all just agree this is the best bit:
Have you read the full article?
Someone started it - it was created and it powered by love , if this does not contradict evolution it certainly re writes it.
@ mike these threads are less shouty and each thread seems to bring out at least one person of faith to argue their case. No one convinces anyone of anything as we all know all the arguments and have made our choice
What we've got here is failure to comprehend.
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Again, he does not state that god directly made humans, he states that god created humans through the process of evolution. This is a step forward for the Christian world and something positive that us atheists should acknowledge instead of deride, we have long claimed that what separates science from religion is that science evolves, I don't see why we shouldn't let religious folk evolve their theology as well.
Anyone who claims the superiority of their own beliefs (even you cannot say why the material universe exists at all and what set off the series of events that led us to come into being) is nothing more than a charlatan. Let me be clear, the opposite to a religious fanatic is not aggressive and poorly informed atheism but a cynical and questioning attitude that cares not whether there is actually a god.
Perhaps next he'll be telling us how his god evolved...
He might do if the physicists looking for signs that we are living in a simulation come up with positive results.
That would wind up all the atheists and theists as we'd have a god or gods, just technically not the one we wanted and I'd die with a shit eating grin on my face.
he states that god created humans through the process of evolution
No, he says god created human beings and everythign else. I have now quoted it three times
He [ god] created human beings....“God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life,” the pope said. “Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”
He says god made us then we evolved....it snot even vaguely ambiguous
I don't see why we shouldn't let religious folk evolve their theology as well.
It's that bit about being perfect and always right that means that a [ abrahmic] god cannot evolve. God cannot really change its mind on stuff.
Anyone who claims the superiority of their own beliefs (even you cannot say why the material universe exists at all and what set off the series of events that led us to come into being) is nothing more than a charlatan.
Yah its ranty tom time- does a little dance.
I think science is more robust than a mythology and , to use your terms, superior. If I said the earth evolved from cheese and stands on a tortoise resting on the souls of the unborn angel unicorn is it really unfair to call the other alternative scientific view superior? Are you this charlatan?
Let me be clear, the opposite to a religious fanatic is not aggressive and poorly informed atheism but a cynical and questioning attitude that cares not whether there is actually a god
I dont think indifferent ambivalence is the best thing but you are free to use it as your "weapon" of choice - do you really think folk discuss things where they dont care what the answer is 😯 I also do not think you need to be a religious scholar to dismiss religion.
I do agree you dont beat militancy with greater militancy. I dont see any militancy[ whoppit apart obv] on here - some passion perhaps but that is not a bad thing.
I have seen a huge range of views and opinions within just that one denomination
Oh so they weren't all brain washed muppets then ??
god also seems to send spectacularly different messages to those who do find it.
Does it ? How so ? I'd honestly like your option based on the evidence you have from the wealth of experience you’ve gleamed from your time with people of faith in a place of worship.
Just like Mike has
Why is it that the faithful are happy to debate anything other than their evidence? I've had and seen numerous discussions on faith and never once has anyone engaged on the topic of their proof for the existence of god,
Because it's probably not really the point.
If you discount Creationism, as many Christians do, then it's very easy to insert God into what we know about the universe without contradicting anything. Let's face it, you know absolutely nothing about why the big bang happened, neither does anyone else. So why not have a god in the picture?
Who created God? I don't know. What created the universe? I don't know that either 🙂
Why is it that the faithful are happy to debate anything other than their evidence? I've had and seen numerous discussions on faith and never once has anyone engaged on the topic of their proof for the existence of god,
Sorry nicked the above from Mols... not sure who the orginal poster was.... but...
Oh I don't know about that... I'm given my views at various times.
Thing is God is personnal so what works for me may well be and probably is completely different from someone else. It doesn't matter... God is also just a word... A rose by anyother would smell as sweat.
This discussion seems to occur quite regularly on STW these days, with no real progress made. I don't know whether that reflects the real world or not, or just the views of some mountain bikers 🙂
Nothing much to contribute from me except to note that asking [i]why[/i] we are here rather than [u]how[/u] are we here doesn't seem to me to be the sign of weakness that some may think, and asking the question might be something essential to human nature that the scientific viewpoint isn't capable of understanding.
Also, as its unlikely that science will ever answer the why, this debate will run for ever more.
He says god made us then we evolved....it snot even vaguely ambiguous
Bollocks, that is willfully misinterpreting the translation to suit your own agenda. He's said that creation required beings that evolved, where the **** did he say creation requires humans that evolved.
It's that bit about being perfect and always right that means that a [ abrahmic] god cannot evolve. God cannot really change its mind on stuff.
Humans can change their interpretation of him.
Yah its ranty tom time- does a little dance.
I think science is more robust than a mythology and , to use your terms, superior. If I said the earth evolved from cheese and stands on a tortoise resting on the souls of the unborn angel unicorn is it really unfair to call the other alternative scientific view superior? Are you this charlatan?
I'm a freaking biologist mate, I spend my spare time reading the writings of enlightenment thinkers like John Locke for a bit of light entertainment, who the hell are you? I never said that one side was more superior than the other, I said you cannot claim superiority for your own beliefs in regards to matters that science cannot address.
molgrips - Member[b]Why is it that the faithful are happy to debate anything other than their evidence? I've had and seen numerous discussions on faith and never once has anyone engaged on the topic of their proof for the existence of god,[/b]
Because it's probably not really the point.
In your opinion.
If you discount Creationism, as many Christians do
But many don't.
So lets hear your views on their devoutly held faith in it.
Thing is God is personnal so what works for me may well be and probably is completely different from someone else. It doesn't matter... God is also just a word... A rose by anyother would smell as sweat.
So you created your God to suit you as an individual?
And God can't 'also just' be anything.
It's either just a word, or it's not.
Please clarify.
🙂
Nothing much to contribute from me except to note that asking why we are here rather than how are we here doesn't seem to me to be the sign of weakness that some may think, and asking the question might be something essential to human nature
I agree it is fascinating to just stare in winder at the whole show
I feel sorry for folk who never ever think about this
that the scientific viewpoint isn't capable of understanding.
Possibly but it does not mean we should make up something just because it is comforting - gods was the best guess millenia ago, the best guess now is science.
Who created God? I don't know. What created the universe? I don't know that either
True but which one do you know REALLY exists?
Here's the christian god. According to South Park anyway. They may be as right as anyone else.
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True but which one do you know REALLY exists?
Define 'know'.
Possibly but it does not mean we should make up something just because it is comforting
Why the hell not?
I would rather define tedious to the degree educated physicist asking me that question 🙄 and YAWN
Or 'goal post shifting'.
If you're religious and a freemason, which takes precendent?
You have to believe in a God/Supreme Being/FSM etc to be a Freemason.
Dem's da rules.
I would rather define tedious to the degree educated physicist asking me that question and YAWN
You're the one who's engaging in tedious arguing for no point. You seem to be suggesting that.. well.. what are you saying? All religious people are stupid? That's proven empirically not to be true, so what next?
I would rather define tedious to the degree educated physicist asking me that question and YAWN
Cat got your tongue?
molgrips - MemberYou're the one who's engaging in tedious arguing for no point.
And you're the one refusing to answer perfectly sensible questions.
I'm all for people believing what they want, for a little comfort.
It's the inevitable consequences of that belief that worry me.
I'm a freaking biologist mate, I spend my spare time reading the writings of enlightenment thinkers like John Locke for a bit of light entertainment, who the hell are you? I never said that one side was more superior than the other, I said you cannot claim superiority for your own beliefs in regards to matters that science cannot address.
Tell me you can see the irony in this?
Please?
And you're the one refusing to answer perfectly sensible questions.
Like what?
That was outrage at being told what is and isn't science, what is currently addressed by science and it's place in the world by a layman.
Thing is God is personnal so what works for me may well be and probably is completely different from someone else. It doesn't matter... God is also just a word... A rose by anyother would smell as sweat.
So God is just a word for what? A general universal holistic lovely warm fuzzy feeling?
Can you explain your view on creationism?
For me, there is a huge difference between faith and 'the church', whatever church that might be. I 'might' have a belief in something but that doesn't necessarily mean I use the bible as an instruction manual for life or that whatever some pensioner in a nice gown decides is the truth, is necessarily the truth for me.
I believe in democracy, I don't believe in the UK's version of democracy. The reasoning behind this is based on what I've read, watched, listened to and learnt. I might believe in faith, I don't believe in the christians version of faith for similar reasons.
Pulling someone apart because they don't share the same view seems a bit small minded to me. Addtionally, not everyone needs to have a rational explanation as to why they feel about something the way they do. A developed society should be tolerant of anyones views, with the caveat that those views shouldn't harm/upset anyone else.
At the end of the day, as long as folk treat each other decently then where is the problem. Whether you do that as a result of your following of the bible, following what some bloke in a posh gaff in Italy says or whether you just come to that conclusion on your own, it doesn't really matter.
Can you explain your view on creationism?
Me? I don't believe in literal creationism and I don't pretend to know for certain whether there is a god or not, like Hitchens I suspect that there is no god and/or god is not worth our time thinking about, I would most likely dislike him/her even if he did exist.
In short to get an idea of the direction I'm travelling in intellectually in regards to this matter, I like Hitchens because his nuanced ad hom of god amused me to no end, whilst Richard Dawkins despite being brilliant winds me up.
Question was aimed at Moly.
But all responses welcome.
🙂
You're the one who's engaging in tedious arguing for no point.
LOl says the person when asked a simple question asked for a definition of a word he understands perfectly well. So physicist atheist which do you consider real the universe or god?
You seem to be suggesting that.. well.. what are you saying? All religious people are stupid? That's proven empirically not to be true, so what next?
I suggest you read around page 4 or 5 when we all agreed that religion was no indication of intelligence. Pointless ad hom distraction as well
Molly why do you do this define "trick " - its pretty childish tbh
Like what?
and another - we all knwo your answer and this is just so Mollgrips
Cat got your tongue?
I guess i missed your explanation of what the Popes actual words meant then
oh the irony.
I guess i missed your explanation of what the Popes actual words meant then
I guess you failed school comprehension tests, I didn't as my verbal IQ is 135.
I guess you failed school comprehension tests, I didn't as my verbal IQ is 135
Seriously?