I can't remember the last time I heard a prominent Anglican leader telling me I'm wrong
Cool so there are no sins or rules to being an anglican
Most excellent news Molly , most excellent
a lack of proof that God exists isn't the same as proof that he does not exist.
Make up anythign - just make sure it is neither true nor testable and you can say that
Spaghetti monsters, unicorns, invisible flying fish, etc . All of them you would consider ludicrous but one. Its not a good way to lead your life- believing in things that you cannot disprove - I may as well claim in a previous life we were married as you cannot disprove that either ergo its true.
By all means keep your faith but that is all you have faith not evidence and not proof
Oh and the atheist molly to argue your corner....in that respect I do agree that god does indeed work in mysterious ways
I can't remember the last time I heard a prominent Anglican leader telling me I'm wrong
The [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10828762/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-Justin-Welby-says-gay-marriage-is-great.html ]current Arch Bish thinks gay marriage is wrong[/url], which means he disagrees with me.
Make up anythign - just make sure it is neither true nor testable and you can say that
Spaghetti monsters, unicorns, invisible flying fish, etc . All of them you would consider ludicrous but one.
There's a huge difference between believe in spaghetti monster and belief in God. That is - belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions whilst the SM does not.
There's a huge difference between believe in spaghetti monster and belief in God. That is - belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions whilst the SM does not.
Pastaphobe!
And, I think you're confusing Santa Claus and God.
JHJ, just trying to figure out what point you're trying to make with those photos. The middle one in particular; a lightning strike, presumably on the highest point of the Vatican during a storm, with some random photo of his Popeness superimposed on top.
The bottom one; doves of peace released: local avian hooligans getting stuck into the poncy new interlopers, bit like street kids having a go at the local public school nobs.
Again, not seeing a point, here.
There's a huge difference between believe in spaghetti monster and belief in God. That is - belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions whilst the SM does not.
So your "huge difference" boils down to number of followers? I can absolutely assure you that TSM brings happiness to plenty. What else have you got?
belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions
Can we start a tea-based religion? I bet that a nice cup of tea brings happiness to more people than religion. It even comes with its own inter-sect fighting, about milk-addition order.
JHJ, just trying to figure out what point you're trying to make with those photos.
I'm sorry, I assumed you knew the lightning strike on St Peter's basilica occurred when Pope Benedict resigned, which many say is in relation to Child Abuse allegations, hence why he can't leave the confines of the Vatican...
Or about La Resurrezione, the eery sculpture depicting Jesus rising from a nuclear crater in the Vatican.
Of course, the attack on the doves could be pure coincidence, as could the pope publicly admitting that at least 2% of the clergy are paedophiles...
but it is perfectly possible that He did set evolution (or even simply the universe) in motion then let it take its course.
So if we don't actually have the answer to something we say "God did it"?
There's a huge difference between believe in spaghetti monster and belief in God. That is - belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions whilst the SM does not.
Nobody has beheaded anyone in the name of the SM AFAIK. Nobody has even threatened anyone with eternal torture for not believing in the SM. Which is probably where pastafraian missionaries are going wrong.
There's a huge difference between believe in spaghetti monster and belief in God. That is - belief in God brings happiness and solace to billions whilst the SM does not.
How dare you be so disrespectful to a sincerely held belief
Not in terms of how true or testable it is
None of them can be proven to be false which was my point
The amount of people who believe it , no matter how sincerely, a truth does not make.
I understand the difference between proof and faith, and I have faith, not proof. But a lot of people go on about there not being scientific proof of the existence of God, but I don't need proof to have faith. I'm not asking anyone to join me in my beliefs, but it would nice not to have people insinuate that I'm thick or deluded 🙂
I have been worshipping at the shrine of the SM this very evening with an offering of a nice tomato sauce and lashings of parmesan. No altar wine in the house sadly.
I understand the difference between proof and faith, and I have faith, not proof. But a lot of people go on about there not being scientific proof of the existence of God, but I don't need proof to have faith. I'm not asking anyone to join me in my beliefs, but it would nice not to have people insinuate that I'm thick or deluded
I've found that it's difficult to discuss religion without making people feel like I'm implying that they're thick or deluded. This is why I try to avoid discussing it with my (Christian) wife.
I suspect that a few on here will assume that anyone religious is thick and/or deluded, but (I hope) the majority of us don't.
it would nice not to have people insinuate that I'm thick or deluded
If it were anything but god you would say the same and what would you say if i believed and talked with and thought something that was not real made everything and helped me in life like say the invisible fish?
It illogical and unwise hence folk mock your choice as thick and deluded
FWIW the diagnostic manual for mental illness has to say culturally non accepted beliefs or else religious beliefs would tick all the criteria for mental illness
That is how unwise the choice is.
Of course you find it offensive but I dont find being told I am a sinner who will spend an eternity in hell for disagreeing with you all that nice.
I suspect that a few on here will assume that anyone religious is thick and/or deluded, but (I hope) the majority of us don't.
to be clear there is no causation between actual intelligence and this belief. Many many bright and wise people believe it and many idiots are atheists.
For the life of me I cannot understand how an otherwise wise and sentient human being can believe, To me its like a grown up still believing in santa.
I dont find being told I am a sinner who will spend an eternity in hell for disagreeing with you all that nice.
I have faith that isn't going to happen.
Bless you
It illogical and unwise hence folk mock your choice as thick and deluded
Some folk mock. Not all.
Thankfully, there's a new wave of atheists who are rather less confrontational than the Dawkins and Hitchens devotees.
For the life of me I cannot understand how an otherwise wise and sentient human being can believe
I wonder if there's a genetic component? I remember thinking it was all nonsense back in primary school, and my eldest has reached the same conclusion. I just can't see a way to reconcile a belief in the supernatural with what I see and experience.
But, I know lots of very intelligent Christians, including at least one with a physics Phd.
Dont flatter molly he is neither intelligent nor a PhD 😉
Indeed not all but some [ and clearly I am guilty of the charge]will mock
At school - a c of E school i remember thinking if god made me who made god. It does not answer the ultimate question and at least one of us came from nothing and we know we are here and have an explantion.
I also remember being very scared to say I did not believe in god [ aged 9 ish ???] as i expected harm to befall me.
I've never told anyone they will spend an eternity in hell for anything, and that is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church, either. The church actually defines hell simply as "absence from the love of God".
I have a PhD in biochemistry and yet I have faith - strange, eh?
Interestingly, I wouldn't have thought that an atheist would be bothered about hell or being threatened with going there. Presumably hell is as much a "supernatural" concept as heaven, or God to an atheist?
Interestingly, I wouldn't have thought that an atheist would be bothered about hell or being threatened with going there. Presumably hell is as much a "supernatural" concept as heaven, or God to an atheist?
Ditto for someone being worried about being called an idiot, if they felt they were going to spend eternity in God's presence?
I never said i was bothered i said it was offensive the fact it wont happen is neither here nor there.
As for what you have done I would hope you have left the judging to god
but it is pretty clear in its message to me
31 x“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the 3holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 yAll the nations will be gathered before Him, and zHe will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the asheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, binherit the kingdom cprepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 dfor I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; eI was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was fnaked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; gI was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, hinasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, i‘Depart from Me, you cursed, jinto the everlasting fire prepared for kthe devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer 4Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, linasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And mthese will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I wouldn't have thought that an atheist would be bothered about hell or being threatened with going there.
For someone who is actually an atheist, you're right. As threats go (I saw one on FB only today, saying that gay people were sinners and going to hell) it's a pretty weak one. Where it has power is with people who are easily influenced like, say, children.
Yeah the "new" pope
Hitchens said it best.
Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse."
Especially true of the Catholic church
On the subject of faith, how do you argue a logical point with someone who believes that logic doesn't apply on this one point? Cognative dissonance eh, gotta love it.
I've mentioned this before, but I used to work with a polymath, one of the most intelligent people I've ever met (and I have a peer group full of geeks). He was the sort of guy who'd decide to teach himself Russian for fun. He was Christian.
I had a lengthy chat with him about how he rationalises it, and he says that he puts his faith in a 'box' separate from everything else. I'm explaining this poorly, but it made some sort of sense at the time.
he says that he puts his faith in a 'box' separate from everything else
That seems like a tactic for avoiding cognitive dissonance.
Maybe it is. Seemed to work.
Proof again that the one thing tolerated by STW is rudeness towards those who have faith. Highlight that someone is ignorant of the facts on how taxation works....down comes the hammer. Claim that having a brain and believing in religion are incompatible, no problem. The mods even join in.
At least be honest that religion is the one thing were abuse and rudeness is sanctioned on here. It does seem to keep Woppit and others regularly amused and entertained. So silver lining.....
Why the hang up about hell? Hell is merely perpetual separation from God (as Vicky points out above). Perhaps the question should be, how can you have a brain and get concerned about being separated from something that you know doesn't exist. That really is stupid.
Look it's dead easy, just prove the god theory for the exisitence of all things is true and I'm instantly a believer, if not just say I've no idea and I'm equally happy, anything else is intellectually dishonest isn't it? We can't just believe things because they're written down in an old book without any shred of empirical evidence to back them up. Science at least admits when it's wrong it's taken the pope 500 years to admit gay people might actually be human, under massive duress and despite the fact the clergy are fabulous, well thanks a bunch.
Proof again that the one thing tolerated by STW etc
Oh, get over yourself.
The one thing tolerated by STW is open debate and freedom of speech. Two, the two things tolerated by STW are...
I can guarantee you that we look into every post which gets reported. Care to guess how many have been reported for this thread? Clue - we've responded to all of them.
I've no idea what the 'taxation' comment refers to, but I'm happy to check if you can enlighten me.
If you can show me where the abuse you refer to is, I'll be more than happy to investigate, as I have no doubt will the rest of the moderation team.
I don't think any atheists are concerned about hell - it's by definition an empty threat in an atheist context - though we probably object to being threatened and coerced.
the one thing tolerated by STW is rudeness towards those who have faith
The religion threads on here have been, by and large, pretty affable. Certainly no worse than any other.
Why the hang up about hell? Hell is merely perpetual separation from God (as Vicky points out above). Perhaps the question should be, how can you have a brain and get concerned about being separated from something that you know doesn't exist. That really is stupid.
As stated above, grown-up atheists aren't bothered by hell at all. But, we are bothered that those who are more vulnerable are threatened by it.
Why the hang up about hell?
Simple really. If you believe your boss is planning on torturing someone for eternity you're not going to see them as an equal. Quite the opposite. You might as well enslave them or get on with the torturing early. Or just send them off to the big fella.
You wouldn't have IS without this belief system.
Oh, get over yourself.
QED
grown up atheists aren't bothered by hell at all
Easily falsified above, unless you are saying that others aren't grown up. But that would be rude wouldn't it?
You wouldn't have IS without this belief system.
And people mentioned ....oh forget it....
Proof again that the one thing tolerated by STW is rudeness towards those who have faith
It is rudeness against the belief not the person
FWIW you can still be very rude about AS and wendy ball and lots of other things as well. you can even be rude about whoppit and others being "amused"
Claim that having a brain and believing in religion are incompatible, no problem
Every single one of us has rejected that point and sated we dont think it is true. And some think the believers are not great with evidence.
Hell is merely perpetual separation from God
I think you need to take that one up with the disciple of christ / bible
Why is it that those of faith just ignore the bits of the book they have no interest in defending? Like say hell or killing gays or marrying your brothers wife ?or say taking slaves and concubines after battle?- i can quote for all of those if you really want.
Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Not just being separated from god according to the bible.
The context was given as well. Would you like some more ? I can use the OT if you prefer.
You cannot just pretend this is not in the bible.
just in case there is any doubt - yes, yes they do. I know a c of e bishop and there is no doubt at all that he does. i've also met a couple of archbishops and if they don't believe then they fake it very well.I always wonder if anybody at the rank of bishop or above actually believes in God and the afterlife
Unfortunately i suspect that the qualities that make you a good minister/priest/whatever are not necessarily the same qualities that make you suitable to run a global organisation
grown up atheists aren't bothered by hell at all
Easily falsified above, unless you are saying that others aren't grown up. But that would be rude wouldn't it?
I can see someone who said being told they were going to hell wasn't nice, another who said it was offensive, and someone's who's questioned the effect it may have on believers' actions to know that non-believers are damned.
I can't seen anyone who was troubled by the thought of being roasted by Old Nick.
As for non-grown-ups, I was thinking of children not insinuating that anyone with a faith isn't a grown up.
Easily falsified above,
Where's that, sorry?
But that would be rude wouldn't it?
I don't know, you're the one making unsubstantiated claims about rudeness and getting your moral compass from a book. Does it have anything in there about straw men?
Yes, we're rude and horrible but seriously where's the evidence? It's a pretty big claim after all. It's not like guessing the colour of someones y-fronts. The claim is not only that god exists but that those of faith know what he wants, likes and takes a dim view of - That's the bit I find hardest to understand, why would the omnipotent creator of the universe get upset if I cracked one off or ate shellfish or pork or coveted my neighbours oxen etc etc ?
I'm not exhorting anyone to believe in God, I'm fine with people being atheists (I was married to one for 9 years, and have a lot of atheist friends as well as some religious ones). I have never threatened anyone with "hell", and I don't even secretly think people are "going there". I have 2 children and although I've told them a little bit about Orthodoxy, I've never dragged them to church or indoctrinated them.
I don't understand the constant prodding from some atheists that there is no proof that God exists. So what? I'm not asking you to believe in him!
For the record, I hope I've never belittled anyone with faith on a thread on here; some of my best friends are religious. Well, my wife's an Anglican* and my sister's girlfriend is a Catholic.
*she'd dispute this, but it's the best 'label' to put on her
FFS. Another kwality cut and paste-a-thon full of the usual ****tery all round.
Why not talk about bikes or something instead, eh? Go on, try it. You might even enjoy it.
I'm always intrigued by the religion threads. As a non-believer myself, the number of members of this forum who must have had horrendous first hand experiences of the abuse of people in positions of religious authority to generate so much bitter hatred of religion astounds me.
Socialists don't get so much hatred for the actions of the Stalin, seems to be purely a religious thing that stokes the fires.
I don't know, you're the one making unsubstantiated claims about rudeness and getting your moral compass from a book. Does it have anything in there about straw men?
Keep leading by example cougs. How do you know where I get my moral compass from? What makes you think it's "a book".
Again QED, so comments about no brain are not rude???
Anyway que sera sera....there's nothing new in this.
I don't understand the constant prodding from some atheists that there is no proof that God exists.
I don't understand the constant prodding from some theists that God exists.
Sorry, I'm being facetious now. Point is, this is a [i]discussion [/i]is it not? Can we not have "healthily exchanging points of view and learning from each other" without it descending into perceived or actual "attacking"?
As an atheist, faith intrigues me and I'd love to understand more about it because I have an inordinately difficult time in getting my head round that sort of thought process. Neither "you're all idiots" nor "we're being oppressed" are helpful starting points.
