[Closed] Have we done this yet? Israel/Eugenics

But why would they do that?

But why would they do that?

Maybe something to do with this:

Nearly 100,000 Ethiopian Jews have moved to Israel under the Law of Return since the 1980s, but their Jewishness has been questioned by some rabbis. Last year, the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who also holds the health portfolio, warned that illegal immigrants from Africa “threaten our existence as a Jewish and democratic state”.

- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html

*gasps*

😯

their Jewishness has been questioned by some rabbis

Its quite frightening
To consoider what they went through and to see what they are willing to do to "protect" their way of life [ like the ayrans????*]
Those who learn nothing from history are doomeed to repeat the mistakes

* They are not Nazis but they do seem have a line in the sand way beyond what is acceptable in order to defend themsleves

Ps You cannot even criticise them

"Having visited Auschwitz twice - once with my family and once with local schools - I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza."

What israel does in the name of "defence" is indefensible - that they would do it to their own people is the only news here

Those who learn nothing from history are doomeed to repeat the mistakes

It's amazing how little the jews learnt from the holocaust.

Hitler.

There you go, somebody can do the Godwin post.

It's amazing how little the jews learnt from the holocaust.

What, all Jews?

thx1138 - Member

It's amazing how little the jews learnt from the holocaust.

What, all Jews?

Posted 3 minutes ago # Report-Post

Okay then, those living in Israel who support the policies of their government,and those not yet returned to somewhere they once were nomadic farmers 300 years ago but are quite happy with how Israel is getting along.... So shall we just call it the majority?

The thing is, surely Israel can't have it both ways. They constantly try to conflate the state of Israel with Jewishness, so that any criticism can be dismissed as anti-semitism, but then when people do use the two interchangeably people cry anti-semitism again.

So shall we just call it the majority?

I met a lot in Queenstown. All under 30 not one liked their governments policies or so they told me. So I would say in my experience no not the majority.

Did I mention I went to Queenstown?

lets not confuse Israelis with jews per say.

They were Jewish by heritage. They also thought I was Jewish.

*heads off to Israel*

😯

So shall we just call it the majority?

Let's not.

Let's instead try to find out the truth behind such misinformation, propaganda and lies.

And let's not look at the issue in such a binary fashion.

I'm not really going to Israel or think that any of this is good (but I do look Jewish; apparently)

Awful stuff, out of the 50's, but sadly not unknown today:

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/15/uk-aid-forced-sterilisation-india ]Over there..[/url]
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7954633/Mother-speaks-out-against-council-over-forced-contraception-bid-on-daughter.html ]and over here[/url]

That Indy paragraph doesn't make much sense to me- first sentence speaks of immigration under the Law of Returns, the second of illegal immigration. Do both refer to the same group? Can someone clarify.

There's a lot of secular and moderate Jews in Israel.
Sadly, they seem to be getting increasingly marginalised under the present administration.
Let's not confuse the current government, the State of Israel and Judaism.

RS thats a long chat and for another threa dbut lets not pretend they are not all interlinked either.

Let's instead try to find out the truth behind such misinformation, propaganda and lies.

What your misinformation and propganda
Is it really your view that the majority of jews within israel oppose israel [ the context was set as within israel by duckman]
Is this an attempt to not discuss what they have done and do and get into a debate about how many support israel?

And let's not look at the issue in such a binary fashion.

I have yet to see you answer the question/speak on the original issue whether Binary or otherwise
Could you give us a view on that please rather than malke us debate how may jews in israel support what their govt whilst lecturing us on "misinformation"

Let's not confuse the current government, the State of Israel and Judaism.

Genuine question: are the "current government" not the government of the State of Israel, and therefore its perfectly reasonable to talk of them in the same breath?

Is this an attempt to not discuss what they have done and do and get into a debate about how many support israel?

No. I'm merely asking for people to be more open-minded and informed about the situation, rather than making ignorant offensive comments.

I'm 'Jewish'; I am from a Jewish family although I do not practice the religion. I am opposed to the actions of the Israeli government, as I am opposed to the actions of the UK government in many areas. As do many of my friends and family, Jewish or otherwise. Please don't think that 'all us Jews' condone eugenics, genocide and ethnic cleansing. Because we don't.

Let's not confuse the current government, the State of Israel and Judaism.

Thank you.

thekingisdead, do you believe Blair represented the views of the UK when he invaded Iraq?
Would you class the views of the Government as the views of the country?

I'm 'Jewish'; I am from a Jewish family although I do not practice the religion. I am opposed to the actions of the Israeli government, as I am opposed to the actions of the UK government in many areas. As do many of my friends and family, Jewish or otherwise. Please don't think that 'all us Jews' condone eugenics, genocide and ethnic cleansing. Because we don't.

I think you're looking for an insult that hasn't been thrown.

I think you're looking for an insult that hasn't been thrown.

I'm not.

Rusty - i am answering this only once as I beleive it to be an attempt to move us away from srticising israel here
In your example if Blair did this once, in israel the policies of land grab, illegal nukes, assinations and general treatment of Palestiniand and illegal settlements and walls ahas been approved by all parties over a 40 - 60 year period. If th epopulus keep voting for leaders that do this it seems reasonable to assume that this is inded what the people actually want - for example here we would accpet the populus want capitlaism with varying degrees of state intervention and support as that is what we keep voting for.

The continued policies of the israeli state over generations is nothing like a one off policy by Blair - if the statees actions dont represent what they feel why do they keep winning elections on this platform

ignorant offensive comments

So on a thread about the Israels secretly enforcing contraception on people due to skin colour [ for purity of the race eh??] you want us to not be offensive 😕
The comment you seem to have taken offense at was at worst a clumsy statement that said Jews rather than some jews - why os this more offensive than what isreal did her that this is what you chose to comment on?

Please don't think that 'all us Jews' condone eugenics, genocide and ethnic cleansing. Because we don't.

Not sure if you are intentionally keeping us away from the issue or not tbh

Would you class the views of the Government as the views of the country?

In a debate on a mountain bike forum it's fair to equate the actions of a government with the State, yes. With every individual Israeli, no, probably not. I think it's normally easy to spot on a post what the writer thinks. If not, you can always ask for clarification before jumping to any mad conclusions, no?

I'm not.

I disagree but I'lll not argue it any further. Just keep a close eye on the thread for us and let us know when somebody whinging about the actions of a state is insulting your religion as I haven't really seen it yet.

The comment you seem to have taken offense at was at worst a clumsy statement that said Jews rather than some jews - why os this more offensive than what isreal did her that this is what you chose to comment on?

It was at best 'clumsy', yet it's a tired old line that's trotted out every time there is an issue with Israel. For the record, I think the current Israeli government is an abhorrent, vile, disgusting regime which stifles true democracy in Israel (Isreali friends and family are somewhat more vehement in their criticism). This story is yet another in a seemingly never-ending catalogue of abuses committed by the Israeli government and state (by 'state' I mean institutions such as the police and military).

I'm not defending the Israeli government/state in anyway. Quite the opposite. So please don't assume I am, merely because I objected to a 'clumsy' statement. Am I not allowed to do so?

yet it's a tired old line that's trotted out every time there is an issue with Israel.

So is crying anti-semitism all the time.

And as above - unfortunately the Israeli state has been quite successful in conflating Israel's actions with the Jewish people, as a shield against criticism.

the article doesn't say that the government ordered the use of birth control, but it does say that it has ordered the practice to cease.
but I imagine any such health 'policy' wouldn't be a written one.
either way, it's utterly atrocious, and no way of reducing the influx of illegal immigrants.

And as above - unfortunately the Israeli state has been quite successful in conflating Israel's actions with the Jewish people, as a shield against criticism.

Backed up to the hilt by America and other so called civilised nations.

True that The US unswerving support of , and aid to , Israel is not helpful
Neither is their much criticism from other jewish groups [ i know htere is some but its only a minority.
FWIW the US has vetoed more UN security mandates than all the other nations combined and iirc 80% of them were related to Israel.

If iran [ or any other country in the region]did what Israel does we would be at war - political assainations abroad, illgal nukes, land grabs from its neighbours, UN violations etc
There is no moral principle at work here that i can see and its daft to scream racist if we question what they do
I dont get why the west allows israel to do this its indefensible

So is crying anti-semitism all the time.

So 'all Jews' are 'crying Anti-Semitism' all the time then?

I'm not.

I dont get why the west allows israel to do this its indefensible

Money and power. Same as why terrible working conditions/Human Rights abuses/hunger/disease/war are overlooked in many other parts of the World. I assume none of you criticising Israel own anything made or produced in China/India/Africa then?

Brilliant.

So 'all Jews' are 'crying Anti-Semitism' all the time then?

Another straw man argument there. Where on earth do you think I said that?

I assume none of you criticising Israel own anything made or produced in China/India/Africa then?

Are you including yourself in that? Are only Jews allowed to criticise Israel? 😕

You can't say anything negative about one thing without simultaneously criticising everything else in the world worthy of criticism? 😕

I'd watch out there grum, you will prove that black is white, and get killed on a pedestrian crossing.

Another straw man argument there. Where on earth do you think I said that?

I didn't say you did. I was merely using the logic displayed by another poster of lumping all those of a particular race in together.

Are you including yourself in that? Are only Jews allowed to criticise Israel?

I have no problem with you criticising Israel.

Money and power. Same as why terrible working conditions/Human Rights abuses/hunger/disease/war are overlooked in many other parts of the World. I assume none of you criticising Israel own anything made or produced in China/India/Africa then?

I don't think they are overlooked actually. The disgusting treatment of the Palestinian people by the state of Israel are crimes against humanity. What happens in other parts of the world doesn't justify the murder of civilians, illegal land grabs , assassinations and violations of nuclear non proliferation treaties.

Personally I'd say its the responsibility of all people of jewish origin, regardless of where they live, to put pressure on the state of Israel to remember the lessons of the past and change the future.

You are either complicit in genocide or you aren't.

So depressingly predictable.

So depressingly ignorant: Palestinian = good Israeli = bad.

I can't really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let's call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

What happens in other parts of the world doesn't justify the murder of civilians, illegal land grabs , assassinations and violations of nuclear non proliferation treaties.

Israel is not the only nation to do such. Which is why it's important to focus not just on one nation, but all those committing atrocities. Do not for a minute think that I am defending Israel in any way by saying this, however. I welcome such criticism of what I see as a vile, corrupt hateful regime.

Personally I'd say its the responsibility of all people of jewish origin, regardless of where they live, to put pressure on the state of Israel to remember the lessons of the past and change the future.

What about all other people then? Do they not have to do anything? It is the responsibility of ALL people, regardless of origin etc, to denounce behaviour like that of the Israeli government, as well as that of many governments including our own.

hels - Member
So depressingly ignorant: Palestinian = good Israeli = bad.

I can't really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let's call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

Completely facile.

Israel is not the only nation to do such. Which is why it's important to focus not just on one nation, but all those committing atrocities. Do not for a minute think that I am defending Israel in any way by saying this, however. I welcome such criticism of what I see as a vile, corrupt hateful regime.

It is the only one that's doing so with over $2Bn annually of military 'aid' from arguably our staunchest military ally.

I can't really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let's call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

i reckon quite a few of us have as it goes. What makes you think we are all proud of our imperial past? Or our attempts to create it in the present for that matter? We have the chutzpah alright. Its chutzpah thats needed from the average citizen that changes things, is it not?

What about all other people then? Do they not have to do anything? It is the responsibility of ALL people, regardless of origin etc, to denounce behaviour like that of the Israeli government, as well as that of many governments including our own.

yep, you are right. I reckon that concerted protests by people of jewish descent living outside of Israel would send a pretty powerful message to Israel and perhaps more importantly to Her Western paymasters.

So depressingly ignorant: Palestinian = good Israeli = bad.
I can't really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let's call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

Probably best you not bother given what else accompanied that statement.

I don't think they are overlooked actually. The disgusting treatment of the Palestinian people by the state of Israel are crimes against humanity. What happens in other parts of the world doesn't justify the murder of civilians, illegal land grabs , assassinations and violations of nuclear non proliferation treaties.

Personally I'd say its the responsibility of all people of jewish origin, regardless of where they live, to put pressure on the state of Israel to remember the lessons of the past and change the future.

You are either complicit in genocide or you aren't.

So depressingly ignorant: Palestinian = good Israeli = bad.

I can't really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let's call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

Israel is not the only nation to do such. Which is why it's important to focus not just on one nation, but all those committing atrocities.

Personally I'd say its the responsibility of all people of jewish origin, regardless of where they live, to put pressure on the state of Israel to remember the lessons of the past and change the future.

What about all other people then? Do they not have to do anything? It is the responsibility of ALL people, regardless of origin etc, to denounce behaviour like that of the Israeli government, as well as that of many governments including our own.

The fact that other states are bad or that this country once did bad things is in no way a justification for what Israel is doing now nor is it a logical respoinse to criticism of israel - its a rather obvious attempt at obfusication to stop comments about israel and make us "defend"

I can't really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let's call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

Yes I have a degree in history thanks. You do realise what an incredibly poor argument this is don't you? You would if you thought about it for more than a second surely.

yet another potentially interesting thread for debate de-railed by the usual suspects moving away from the original post and creating pointless tit-for-tat arguments to test their wiki-skills.

You cannot criticise Israel for your contry once had an empire - Grums right written like that it is a realy bad argument - if it is indeed an argument

I reckon that concerted protests by people of jewish descent living outside of Israel would send a pretty powerful message to Israel and perhaps more importantly to Her Western paymasters.

That you don't appear to be aware that this already happens, on a large scale, shows just how ineffectual such protests seem to be:

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Well I try but when i dio i get called anti semitic .

Really? When was the last time this actually happened?

Where are these 'Anti-Semites'? Tehran? Gaza? No, Stamford Hill actually:

[img] [/img]

Please don't think that Jews are not speaking out against the Israeli government, because it's simple not true.

brakes, why don't you bring it back on track with one of your razor sharp insights? There's a first time for everything.

on a large scale

You'll have to define your idea of "large" for us.

That you don't appear to be aware that this already happens, on a large scale, shows just how ineffectual such protests seem to be:

really? how large is large then? Is there a concerted boycott of israeli products? are there large scale demonstrations in the US? Are there any political parties? you know as well as I do that the political batleground is in america. What is happening there? These are all genuine questions by the way. I'm not going to spend 5 minutes on google looking for ways to justify my argument. Crazy!

Let's not confuse the current government, the State of Israel and Judaism.

By for example suggesting that a cartoon of the leader of the government is anti-semitic?

Is burning an Israeli flag anti-semitic then? To me it's an example of the conflation we've been talking about.

Really? When was the last time this actually happened?

I usually reply by criticising China and Saudi so I can start to collect nations/races I supposedly hate

Can we not flame the poster. they seem vastly outnumbered and not being that controversial or pro Israel on here - its nioce to have a rational voice of dissent rather than something like hles to dela with or some pro Israel can dow hat it likes views [ still time for the workers to do that tonight mind]

Can the attack hounds just stand down a little please as he is no supporter of israel

brakes, why don't you bring it back on track with one of your razor sharp insights? There's a first time for everything.

perhaps I don't have any, but you knew that already.
but I would be interested in those of others, if anyone would care to share them. unfortunately, those who profess to know about the subject would prefer to resort to petty squabbling rather than providing anything of readable value.

aracer - Member

"Let's not confuse the current government, the State of Israel and Judaism."

By for example suggesting that a cartoon of the leader of the government is anti-semitic?

It's entirely possible that a cartoon of Bibi could be anti-semitic...are you talking specifics?

You'll have to define your idea of "large" for us.

I've personally been to several large demonstrations in central London, with crowds numbering tens of thousands. Such events are rarely reported in the media, however. MP Gerald Kaufman has often publicly criticised Israel (and been denounced by others who are unable to listen to such views).

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sir-gerald-kaufman/gaza-israel-palestine_b_2164599.html

So there are many who oppose Israel. Just because you aren't aware of such things, don't mean they aren't happening.

Did the Israelis steal the Pally's potatoes? Because, there's no forgiving that if they did.

Tens of thousands? Really? Have you any reports of such demos? Serious question btw.

I often get accused of anti semitism for criticising Israel.

I've been accused of the same, called a 'self hating Jew' and other not quite such nice things. Such accusations won't stop me speaking out, and they shouldn't stop you or anyone else, either. If anyone accuses you of such, challenge them to prove it.

Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

History is just that, of the past. Hopefully you evolve into better people over time; by acknowledging the past and learning from it.

It's not a strong defence to say 'Well, your countrymen did worse 200 years ago'.

It's entirely possible that a cartoon of Bibi could be anti-semitic...are you talking specifics?

Bad taste given the date of publication but it seem slegitiamte to say the "peace Wall" is built apon the Arbas - not least as tehy are stealing their land

What is worse is we have folk being accused of anti semitism [ wehn it is not] then apologising. Its odd you can say what you like about mad Mullahs and Arabds and suicid ebombings etc but Israel if you do you must say sorry
see also the lIb dem MP whom I linked to originally who had to apologise and that was basically factual and true and in no way a polemic.
i fear that we are trying to get to the point where one cannot criticise Israel - whether this is nefarious design or not I dont knwo

perhaps I don't have any, but you knew that already.

I didn't. But I do now. 🙂

For the moment we're sorting out separating criticism of the State of Israel from anti-semitism. Check back in a bit and we might be on track. (I doubt it though...this could go on for ages. Took nearly a page to clarify that we could leave human rights abuses by other states aside for now.

Some 'interesting' perspectives and comments here:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/london-wont-pull-bus-ad-campaign-for-iran-linked-anti-israel-march/

Ironic use of the word 'perspective' for that link, thx1138 (named after the film?)

I assume the one in the Times

Indeed - I thought the reference was obvious - if you've missed that fairly high profile story, then are you really well enough informed to contribute to this debate?

Not that I necessarily think the cartoon was reasonable or fair, but it hasn't half got everybody out with the "anti-semitic" complaints, when the only obvious justification for that is a similarity to nazi propaganda (when the artist in question has used similar style for other subjects) and the fact it's about the leader of the Israeli government.

It looks like Ethiopian Jews have more of right to be in Isreal than a lot of the Europeans who have holiday homes there.

, Queen Sheba decided to visit him, taking with her gifts of gold, sapphires and ivory. Although she was received with honour, on the last night of her visit Solomon tricked her into sleeping with him and she returned to Ethiopia pregnant with a son. Beynalekem was born in Sheba’s capital Aksum and when he grew up he went to seek his father in Jerusalem. Solomon recognised and acknowledged him as his son and educated him in the art of kingship.

[url= http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/aoa/s/the_story_of_solomon_and_sheba.aspx ]The story of King Solomon and Queen Sheba[/url]