[Closed] Have we done the tube drivers pay deal?

How can we be in a country where a train driver is valued more than a senior reg.

So yer average tube train driver probably earns a good bit more than yer average STW right winger. Is that why they're all frothing about it?

I think this is the key.

Some of you guys are so wound up in your own froth that you become parodies, and so, so funny, and particularly as the wage war that is being wonderfully exploited by the evil rail unions is in all forms a Tory creation (as stated above by darkcove) - ace, isn't it?
..and I don't know a single poor doctor (I know some tired ones) - but I don't see them handing back the enormous pay increases imposed upon them by the last government.

So yer average tube train driver probably earns a good bit more than yer average STW right winger. Is that why they're all frothing about it?

I know a lot of doctors, who I now realise are paid less than a train driver, and I now consider that a sick joke.

only one out of every thousand applicants actual make the grade and qualify

They may get 1000 applicants for every job but I don't believe only 0.1% capable of doing it. Need some evidence.

I think that all of the 'I'm in chrage ot x lives' etc ...is absolute twaddle. Just becuase you have a certain responsibility that does not make a job either difficul or risky.

It is basically supply and demand. The more difficult jobs may pay more due to this but equally these jobs may be more fulfilling. Engineering is a typical case here but the relatively low pay does hinder the supply of high calibre candidates.

What is different is the market forces are distorted by the power of the unions. This is wrong.

That must be it - nothing at all to do with the bully boy tactics they used to get it.

The fact is, unions are one of the few forces left in society acting for the interests of ordinary workers against the vast vested interests of big business. The government (of whatever party) have pretty much given up. And yet people swallow the right-wing propaganda (strangely enough mainly pumped out by the same vested interests) that unions are evil.

And all this 'paid more than a doctor' stuff is a smokescreen anyway. Carlos Tevez gets paid £250,000 a week to kick a ball around and can't even be bothered to do his job. Sadly that's the capitalist world we live in, I thought you right-wingers were all in favour?

So yer average tube train driver probably earns a good bit more than yer average STW right winger. Is that why they're all frothing about it?

And they're working class. That must really hurt.

Ive not added to this so far and it is completely irrelevant to rail worker pay but have to answer to aP - I'm married to medic and am interested to see when my wife can expect her pay rise foisted upon her as you have mentioned?
Perhaps you are referring to the ill advised and highly publicised new GP contracts of recent years? if so then maybe it is similar to the rail union in having being savvy and negotiating well for its members - as the government I believe realised shortly after the deal was struck that it wasn't as good as they hoped?
Also comparatively my wife is a junior - (middle grade reg) who if we work out hourly rate me as a nurse would be better much off if I did her crazy long hours not to mention all the reading/ study/ exam crap done in own time but expected or is noted and held against you.
For typical example she did on call days last weekend friday to sunday alledgedly 09:00-21:00 in intensive care - friday did 08:00 to 23:30 for pateints needs, saturday 09:00- 22:30 and sunday 09:00 -21:45 - all the extra bits free of charge to the trust because patient care doesn't just stop at clocking off time, or have regulated guaranteed breaks - often she gets in having not having time to eat from leaving house at 07:00. The above example is not unusual in medic, more the norm - I'm sure these tube drivers put just as much effort into being grumpy surly arses?
Sorry bit ranty but I love when people with no real experience of the job or conditions feel can target medics, aye some are highly paid but is a long, antisocial, non-family friendly and exhausting route to get there so why shouldn't there be appropriate remuneration for 15-20 years effort to achieve that??

Grum, thats not true at all for the vast majority of us. The unions did great things in their time which was the industrial revolution. They ensured that not only pay but conditions, working hours and health and safety were improved for the benefit of all. That is an admirable achievement.

The problem with many unions and the RMT is probably the worst is that they have not modernised and evolved. It is still a class war against the oppressive goverment/employer/big business etc.

Unions can only remain relevent in a modern society if they work with business and government. They need to understand that for employees to maintain good wages, conditions and so forth that a company needs to be successful. There will be hard times where workers need to share some of the pain for the greater good of the company.

There also needs to be an undestanding of sustability which is sadly lacking from many left wing figures. Pensions, pay and conditions need to be sustainable for the long term and crucially not at the expense of others ...i.e. the young/private sector.

What the RMT is doing is distorting the free market. This either pushes wages to an unsustainable level and/or provides inequality between workers with comparable skills and responsibilities. This is why there is so much hostility to the RMT on here and in the general public at large.

jumpupanddown /ranos - What part of my statement was incorrect? Seriously? Explain it to me... Choosing to see history through a leftist 'working class hero' squint doesn't change reality. The luddites were against technological change that has without doubt changed the world for the better. Removing drivers from the tube driving equation would make them more reliable and stop millions being held to ransom by a few individuals.

Repeating the same thing over and again doesn't make it true. Please do some reading on the Luddites - what they lost, the effect of societal changes on the average working person, then try and tell me that the life of the average working person was made better. You would do well to look further than a couple of lines from wikipedia.

It's ironic that the thing that really did improve the lot of the working person was trade unionism, a point that, as with many other things, seems to have passed you by.

I dont see unions as evil, or bullys, I just dont see public sector unions working with their employers.
It still seems to be an us v them attitude.
whereas in a lot of private sector based unions I see a lot more co-operation happening in what are the most dire econoic times the country has seen in decades.
and I feel management in these public sector organisations are as much to blame for the poor working relations.
I dont see it as political.
Ideally the less political the situation the better the relationship,

What the RMT is doing is distorting the free market. This either pushes wages to an unsustainable level and/or provides inequality between workers with comparable skills and responsibilities. This is why there is so much hostility to the RMT on here and in the general public at large.

We don't have a free market. If you believe that's what we should have, I advise you to move to DR Congo.

whereas in a lot of private sector based unions I see a lot more co-operation happening in what are the most dire econoic times the country has seen in decades.

And where has this spirit of cooperation got us? An increasingly unequal society with ever more power and money controlled by the few, a huge drop in union membership, and worsening terms and conditions for the average person.

Whatever you think of Bob Crow (and I don't care for him much), his supposed militancy seems to be achieving rather more for his members. The operator's income ends up with the shareholders & management, or the workers: think of Crow as redressing the balance a little.

On a wider note, the pay settlement for the drivers works out to inflation plus a little bit. Is it really so outrageous? Or is it just jealousy?

yet people swallow the right-wing propaganda (strangely enough mainly pumped out by the same vested interests) that unions are evil.

Unions can only remain relevent in a modern society if they work with business and government. They need to understand that for employees to maintain good wages, conditions and so forth that a company needs to be successful. There will be hard times where workers need to share some of the pain for the greater good of the company.

There also needs to be an undestanding of sustability which is sadly lacking from many left wing figures. Pensions, pay and conditions need to be sustainable for the long term and crucially not at the expense of others ...i.e. the young/private sector.

This is all well and good, except..... we keep hearing about how we need pay restraint etc, yet corporate pay continues to rise rapidly, while ordinary workers get nothing. The ratio of pay discrepancy between executives and ordinary workers in most companies has risen massively over the last couple of decades, and continued to rise rapidly even during the financial crisis. The unions are literally the only force acting against that.

Ransos ....you really are a dinosaur. The world has moved on, its not about us and them anymore. Private sector unions work together as that is in the best interests of their members, i.e. to maintian jobs and growth.

The only reason public sector/essential service unions such as the RMT are so antagonistic is beacuse the company cannot simply be dissolved. Even more reason to shrink the public sector with extreme and idealogical idiocy like yours.

An increasingly unequal society with ever more power and money controlled by the few

Frodo - is this what you want? Because that's the reality of what is happening right now, and as above the unions are literally the only force acting against it.

Grum. I agree the pay divide is too large. The problem is however executive pay that is not justified by results or skills. The answer is to address this issue. It is not feasible to close the gap from the bottom, this is simply not affordable.

"Ransos ....you really are a dinosaur. The world has moved on, its not about us and them anymore. Private sector unions work together as that is in the best interests of their members, i.e. to maintian jobs and growth.

The only reason public sector/essential service unions such as the RMT are so antagonistic is beacuse the company cannot simply be dissolved. Even more reason to shrink the public sector with extreme and idealogical idiocy like yours. "

So, rather than answer my post, you have chosen to respond with silly insults. That's all the evidence we need that you have well and truly lost the argument. If you really can't see that the weak state of unions in the private sector is a significant reason that employers are driving down on terms and conditions, there's no hope for you.

Edited to add: if you want to call someone an "idealogical idiot", learn to spell it.

Good on them....there is plenty of money out there if you have the right skills and are prepared to move around for it.

Grum. I agree the pay divide is too large. The problem is however executive pay that is not justified by results or skills. [b]The answer is to address this issue.[/b]

And how do you suggest doing that? The unions campaign about this issue BTW, not sure I've ever heard anyone else talk about it.

It is not feasible to close the gap from the bottom, this is simply not affordable.

It's not affordable because we have to pay ever increasing salaries to executives?

market forces are distorted by the power of the unions. This is wrong.

Grum, thats not true at all for the vast majority of us. The unions did great things in their time which was the industrial revolution. They ensured that not only pay but conditions, working hours and health and safety were improved for the benefit of all. That is an admirable achievement.

The problem with many unions and the RMT is probably the worst is that they have not modernised and evolved. It is still a class war against the oppressive goverment/employer/big business etc.

What the RMT is doing is distorting the free market. This either pushes wages to an unsustainable level and/or provides inequality between workers with comparable skills and responsibilities. This is why there is so much hostility to the RMT on here and in the general public at large.

A lot of executives are not in unions so who is negotiating their pay rises? 😉

Seriosuly though, companies like Honda, Nissan UK have some of the best working relationships in the country and Honda were on short weeks and everyone went along with the pay cut to safeguard their jobs, can you imagine the strikes and complete breakdown of the company if Bob crow had been in charge of their union?

the sooner the politics is taken out of unions and management the better.

"And how do you suggest doing that? The unions campaign about this issue BTW, not sure I've ever heard anyone else talk about it."

Quite. Since the unions were cut down in the 1980s, the only people with the power to address this problem, are the people who benefit from it. And with turkeys not being keen on Christmas, don't expect it to change anytime soon.

I've seen a lot of comments on these pages about how unions should work with their employers. Well, unions have been significantly weakened now for at least 25 years, and so in most cases have been doing exactly that. Where has it got the average working person? Less job security, loss of pension rights, and watching the rich get richer.

Of course a two-way system of co-operation, if we had a German style system, with union representation on the board, things may improve, but there seems to be no appetite for that on the part of employers.

Executive pay is agreed by the owners of the business - they think they have to pay the amounts involved to have the right people at the top which they think is important. The lower down the tree the less this matters as there are more people able to do the job. So footballers and Jonathan Ross get paid huge amounts of cash and supermarket shelf stackers may have to rely upon the minimum wage.

But we're all human so maybe we should all be paid the same no matter what we do? Are we not all equal?

If you really can't see that the weak state of unions in the private sector is a significant reason that employers are driving down on terms and conditions, there's no hope for you.

The UK private sector unions could force employers to pay everyone double what they do now and an extra ten days holiday - problem is, they wouldn't have any jobs left, as their products would no longer be competitive in a global market.

The public sector does not have this problem, their captive audience of "customers" has money taken off them by force of law (ie. tax) - and if they run out of that, the government borrows billions to keep them in business.

But we're all human so maybe we should all be paid the same no matter what we do? Are we not all equal?

Why would you bother with the stress of being a doctor, or the danger of being an oil rig worker, if you got the same money for no stress stacking shelves in a supermarket?

my only problem with unions is the same problem I have with solicitors, if someoene else is representing me, then their interests come in to the equation and that is not always in my best interest.

So I think employee representation at board level, not necessarily union representation.

and dont get me started on solicitor salaries 😉

"The UK private sector unions could force employers to pay everyone double what they do now and an extra ten days holiday - problem is, they wouldn't have any jobs left, as their products would no longer be competitive in a global market.

The public sector does not have this problem, their captive audience of "customers" has money taken off them by force of law (ie. tax) - and if they run out of that, the government borrows billions to keep them in business."

The majority of the private sector isn't unionised, so the unions can't force employers to do anything.

As for your comment about the public sector, substitute in the word "banks" and you'll be closer to the mark.

Why would you bother with the stress of being a doctor, or the danger of being an oil rig worker, if you got the same money for no stress stacking shelves in a supermarket?

Er yes.... So what jobs pay similar rates to tube drivers? Can we compare and contrast?

This is all very silly is it not? Can we all take a reality check, now is not the time to be idelogical. The nation is broke and we need to fix that first.

The reason I belive unions are outdated is the fact that they don't represent the working man, they represent their members. Far better for the unions to be marginalised and the working people to be represented by ...umm I don't know ....the Labour party? (or substitute party of your choice). That is what democracy is about.

(btw when I referred to the unions and industricl revolution I was referring to the movement which started in the industrial revolution and not a specific union).

first comparison is senior reg doctors in ITU being paid less.

Pilots earn less for ****s sake

Repeating the same thing over and again doesn't make it true. Please do some reading on the Luddites - what they lost, the effect of societal changes on the average working person, then try and tell me that the life of the average working person was made better. You would do well to look further than a couple of lines from wikipedia.

Are you seriously trying to argue that the net effect of the industrial revolution was a negative one? Really? If so, I give up!

Er yes.... So what jobs pay similar rates to tube drivers? Can we compare and contrast?

As per Drac's post, paramedics, even in senior roles managing junior staff also get paid less.

On the occasions that I have to use the tube, I am always struck by the contrast between the experience and the regular announcement that:

[b]"London Underground is currently running a good service on all lines."[/b]

It always brings an ironic smile to my face!!!

Mudshark - quick look on NHS jobs site trust doctor anaesthetics registrar in Ealing - so should have London Weighting included - start salary £48k, does say up to 75k but would struggle to find anyone near achieving this in that sort of post.
Responsibilities will include putting people asleep and more importantly waking safely, resus calls, intensive care cover, major incident cover (see not just tube drivers need to be ready for this)
Oh and that was a 1yr contract so no security after this and as is trust dr post, also called staff grade, no definitive entitlement to continuing education and in this role not working towards consultant level as not 'training post'

"first comparison is senior reg doctors in ITU being paid less."

I think that's wrong. And if GPs/ consultants earned a little less, we could pay registrar doctors more appropriately.

This is all very silly is it not? Can we all take a reality check, now is not the time to be idelogical. The nation is broke and we need to fix that first.

By ordinary workers and the poor taking the brunt of it, while rich people take more and more for themselves? Marvellous.

The reason I belive unions are outdated is the fact that they don't represent the working man, they represent their members. Far better for the unions to be marginalised and the working people to be represented by ...umm I don't know ....the Labour party? (or substitute party of your choice). That is what democracy is about.

The Labour Party doesn't represent working people - we have no real choice, the system is broken.

"Are you seriously trying to argue that the net effect of the industrial revolution was a negative one? Really? If so, I give up!"

If you managed to infer that from what I said, I advise you to enrol on a remedial English comprehension course.

Frodo - Member

This is all very silly is it not? Can we all take a reality check, now is not the time to be idelogical. The nation is broke and we need to fix that first.

Thi is simply not true. You need to start from a point of truth - the idea that we are broke is a lie put around by ideologically driven right wingers that far too many of you have swallowed

"The Labour Party doesn't represent working people - we have no real choice, the system is broken."

As an examination of the shadow cabinet shows. The days of working class people becoming Labour MPs are long gone.

Ransos that is correct, registrars paid less, fact. Guess all them medics have wasted time with their fancy book learning all those years.

Not justifying the seniors salary but wonder why should they be penalised when they run departments, have responsibilty for large budgets, and many peoples lives in their hands and have spent 15-20yrs acheiving thier specialist status?

Pilots earn less for ****s sake

Indeed - clearly pilots should get three times as much, cos they have to steer up and down, AND left and right, as well as start and stop 😀