[Closed] Have we done the tube drivers pay deal?

Lets be honest you do not get it!

Performance is seperate to annual adjustments, it has to be. Performance/promotion pay is not linked to affordability (well in theory) annual adjustments are!

You mean that many public sector workers did very well out of the Labour party's borrowing splurge, most of which was spent on their own little client state of the union members. Unions which in turn funded the Labour party. Oh, what a merry little dance......

Oh no, a little bit more cash goes to ordinary workers - how awful and corrupt. While of course you are quite happy for the Tories to bend over backwards for their already vastly rich chums in the city, as long as they cough up.

The influence of the City over the Conservatives has been laid bare by new research showing that more than half of the Tory party's donations since the general election have come from individuals and businesses working in finance.

Hedge funds, financiers and private equity firms contributed more than a quarter of all the Tories' private donations – which this year poured in at a rate equal to £1m a month – the study by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism has found.

The figures show an increase in the proportion of party funds coming from the financial sector, raising fears that the City's financial influence over the Tories is on the rise as key pieces of legislation are discussed by the coalition government.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/sep/30/city-conservatives-donations

I was flabbergasted to discover in Saturdays papers that over half the Tory parties funding came directly from the City. Who'd have thunk it eh?

I'm sure that has nothing at all to do with the Vickers report's recommendations being kicked into the long grass by Gideon, never to see the light of day.

Business as usual instead then is it?

Great! What could possibly go wrong?

So should i get more pay if less people die when i'm working OR less pay if I manage to kill most of them?

The influence of the unions over Labour is as bad as the influence of "big business" over the Conservative party. Neither is healthy, that's pretty obvious. One difference is that "big business" generates revenue, the public sector spends that revenue. As such, there needs to be responsibility on that spend. I don't think the RMT take that in to account at all.

I was flabbergasted to discover in Saturdays papers that over half the Tory parties funding came directly from the City. Who'd have thunk it eh?

Not only that but if you pay 50 grand or more you get to join the 'leader's group'

The Leader’s Group is the premier supporter Group of the Conservative Party. Members are invited to join David Cameron and other senior figures from the Conservative Party at dinners, post-PMQ lunches, drinks receptions, election result events and important campaign launches.

It's all very democratic unlike the evil trade unions and their 'elections' and 'ballots'.

The influence of the unions over Labour is as bad as the influence of "big business" over the Conservative party. Neither is healthy, that's pretty obvious. One difference is that "big business" generates revenue, the public sector spends that revenue. As such, there needs to be responsibility on that spend. I don't think the RMT take that in to account at all.

Another difference is that the Unions represent the interests of ordinary workers and are democratic and accountable. Whereas the 'leader's group' is an unelected, unaccountable group of rich people representing their own interests and trying to make themselves even richer.

The influence of the unions over Labour is as bad as the influence of "big business" over the Conservative party. Neither is healthy, that's pretty obvious. One difference is that [s]"big business" generates revenue, the public sector spends that revenue[/s] one I support is not as bad as the one you support. In fact its ace

The influence of the unions over Labour is as bad as the influence of "big business" over the Conservative party.

Is it balls. One lot are all about the rights of workers and 'ordinary people' and the importance of democracy, the other lot are all about power and influence being gained through wealth, and maintaining that status quo.

The thing that most sticks in the throat of Tories about someone like Bob Crow, is that he has achieved a position of power and influence based on his own meritorious rise through the ranks of a trade union, something the Tories despise (unions tend to damage the rich's ability to make even more money at the expense of their workers).

He hasn't achieved his position because he went to the right schools, or was in the right club, or because daddy had the right connections. He's just the son of a toilet cleaner, who's done good for himself and commands the respect from many people as a result. An oik who's risen out of the gutter. A constant thorn in the side of capitalists.

Our society needs more people like Bob Crow, and less people like David Cameron.

the other lot are all about power and influence being gained through wealth, and maintaining that status quo

Some might argue that some of the unions (or some of the reps at least) aren't so different 😉

Our society needs more people like Bob Crow, and less people like David Cameron.

Very true though I'd argue that you could replace DC's name with a significant number of politicians. probably the entire cabinets on all sides.

Fair point Clubber. The current Labour lot are a mostly shower of shit too.

TBH I'm trying but I can't off the top of my head think of one senior politician from any of the parties that it wouldn't apply to...

Anyone note that the Tories announced that you'll have to pay to take your employer to a tribunal now? Or that you only accrue the right to do so once you've been continuously employed for 24 months (instead of 12)?

Imagine what they'd do if there were no unions!

i liked the way the Tory audience applauded the announcements like it is a good thing your employer can be more unreasonable for longer without risk.
One wonders why they need this protection if they are just nice to people.
Its good to know George has not taken his eye away from the big issues.

The current Labour lot are a mostly shower of shit too.

IMO they should make the minimum age for MP's 35+ and they must have worked in a non-political environment for at least 5 years prior to standing.

Does anyone here really want to be on a tube train driven by a thick numpty?

No but they end up driving buses instead

If only the rest of us had a [s]union as effective as the RMT[/s] job where we could hold the country to ransom!

If only the rest of us had a [s]union as effective as the RMT[/s] job where we could hold [b]a small part of[/b] the country to ransom!

Ewan... I can say with absolute certainty that the Victoria Line trains have drivers, both the old ones and the brand spanking new ones. I had a small part in the build of the new Victoria Line trains, and spent a lot of hours testing them up and down the Victoria Line itself.

clubber - Member

TBH I'm trying but I can't off the top of my head think of one senior politician from any of the parties that it wouldn't apply to...

Caroline Lucas?

should have said any of the main parties 😉

I know discussion has moved on but thought I'd add that I know a tube driver who lives next door to my sister. His opinion on his pay is that "It's f****** ridiculous, but if they are crazy enough to pay it, I'd be crazy not to take it!" Fair enough I guess! By coincidence my sister earns exactly that wage - she is number 2 in the immunology and tissue matching dept at Guys (if you have an organ transplant in London or your new organ has come from there, her sweaty little mitts have probably been all over it!). Had to have a first class biomedical science degree, a masters, further professional qualifications, line manages 7 people, runs the sub-dept budget of £2m, works some pretty unsociable hours, has quite a bit of stress at times of transplants and obviously if she gets it wrong properly balls up someone's life. I guess she is just a mug.

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=380 ][/url]

Funkynick, found my source - from Christian Wolmar's 'The Subterranean Railway'

The Victoria line is pioneering in one key respect: the trains are driven automatically from a control centre. The person at the front is really a guard with the ability to make emergency stops.

Is my book wrong?

did you study history at Mcdonalds university of the ill informed ?

Yawn....

If only we could remove bankers and replace their sorry greedy pin-striped arses with technology eh? - might stop the world being completely ****ed by a few individuals.

£48K?

If they've negotiated that salary, then **** it, fair dues to them.

Removing drivers from the tube driving equation would make them more reliable and stop millions being held to ransom by a few individuals.

While I can believe this conversation is happening, I find this whole being held to ransom bit a bit OTT.

Being held to ransom is bankrupting the entire banking system and then going cap in hand to the Government to use public money to bail them out knowing full well if the system isn't bailed out, we are all pretty much screwed.

One union that has more bargaining power than others and off go the right whingers about union power and how it can bring a country to its knees or inconvenience millions, while conveniently forgetting that the city and it's cohorts were actually far more successful in this particular action than the unions ever were.

Divided you fall.

Ah, so because the bankers did it (in general by screwing up, rather than deliberately), it's all right for the tube drivers to do it too (on purpose because they know they can get away with it)?

But they're not though are they so shut up.

so shut up

Well, if you will insist on bleating on the same blinkered, prejudiced right-wing crap, then what do you expect?

I mean, swallowing the Tory line that unions are evil etc etc etc, and swallowing the right-wing media's demonisation of unions, their leaders and members don't strike me as a particularly intellectual feat.

Change the record. You, and all of us, should be grateful we have unions in this country. Or would you prefer there to be none, and business allowed to do what TF it liked with it's workers?

So you are comparing that one union in one city in the country has the same potential to bring the country down like the bankers did?

So the tube drivers get a pay rise, and the bankers/hedge funds etc, made horrifically bad investments that bankrupted themselves causing an international calamity.

How the hell are you lumping these two together?

How the hell are you lumping these two together?

You, and all of us, should be grateful we have unions in this country. Or would you prefer there to be none, and business allowed to do what TF it liked with it's workers?

Maybe it's you who should change the record.

This story is nothing to do with banking, so let's leave that issue for another time.

All jobs should be paid based on what it costs to get qualified, capable staff. Not what the staff want, or believe they are worth. If the firm pays any more, it will be inefficient. If the firm pays too little, its staff are free to find another firm willing to pay the market rate.

I'd love to get paid £2m a year to do bike guiding in the Alps, or to train naked supermodels at swimming. Unfortunately, a lot of other people are willing to do that as well, so the rates are so low you have to pay to do these jobs.

There is a massive pool of people qualified to, or able to learn to, drive tube trains. Time the tube payed market rates. The current waste of money could be diverted to other social projects which would deliver a better return.

The current protection racket on the tube is taking doctors from hospitals, food from orphans and money from everyone's pockets, and handing it to a select few in the relevant union.

Er, I didn't introduce the bankers to this argument. Hold on a second, I'll just check back and see who it was..

And what has this got to do with you lumping unions into the same bracket as bankers?

This story is nothing to do with banking

The current protection racket on the tube is taking doctors from hospitals, food from orphans and money from everyone's pockets, and handing it to a select few in the relevant union.

Well it clearly has, but don't let that get in the way of blaming a union.

Food from orphans...dear god. 🙄

Ewan... yep, your book is wrong.

The new Vic Line trains can't be automatically driven from a control centre. There is an Auto driving mode, which drives the train at it's optimum speed profile between stations, but this mode requires the the driver the initiate the run, and it is the train itself which is doing the driving. There is some fairly hefty computer power in the cabs these days!

The control centre does have some influence over the train, but that is only by the control over the signalling, so it has the ability to make a train stop, or impose speed restrictions, but it does not have any actual control over the train.

There are also a number of other driving modes where the driver does actually fully drive the train using the traction/brake controller...

The belief that these "hero" unions have "negotiated" anything is a joke. Blackmail would be a more accurate description.

Crow is a Marxist, which to his credit he doesn't try and conceal unlike a lot of fluffy Lefties on here

So yer average tube train driver probably earns a good bit more than yer average STW right winger. Is that why they're all frothing about it?

Won't "the market" sort all this out over time ? Presumably the wage bill has to be paid for by TfL out of it's income streams. Ticket income, advertising, public funding (and this is London tax payers?). When ticket prices reach a certain tipping point then passengers will attempt to use alternative methods of transport (where possible), advertising rates will cause advertisers to go elsewhere and eventually London tax payers will get hacked off with public transport subsidisation and vote for politicians proposing to do something about it (whatever that might be).

Or is that just Ladybird / Janet and John economics ?

I believe they are vastly over paid, in comparison to other jobs in the public and private sector.

I think that they are paid about double what they are worth.

I dont feel its a difficult job and that the union has done a good job in negotiating the pay deal.
If the management want to pay the wages then they are the stupid ones, but based on the wages of the drivers they are paid more than senior reg doctors so its clearly an over paid job for the skill, level of training and level of qualification for the job.

There is a massive pool of people qualified to, or able to learn to, drive tube trains. Time the tube payed market rates. The current waste of money could be diverted to other social projects which would deliver a better return.

I was told when I did my mainline driving course that that only one out of every thousand applicants actual make the grade and qualify. Driving Trains is not a job that any idiot can do. Think you can handle the pressure of having 700 odd people all looking to you when things go wrong?

It's ironic that despite all the right wing froth on this thread the free market for our labour was created by The Conservatives when they privatised the industry. In order to retain drivers and attract the right calibre of new applicants they have to pay what is with their pay rise just above the market rate for a mainline driver.

TOC A pays 40k, TOC B pays 30k. Drivers leave TOC B in droves to work for TOC A. B doesn't have enough drivers to maintain a service. B puts it's wage upto 45k and drivers return. A is now in trouble so increases it's wage. And so it goes on.

funkynick - My book predates the new rolling stock - it's talking about the original 1968(?) rolling stock. Sounds like the Union's won that argument and we've got a less capable system in place....

It should be like the DLR - a complex railway system that's entirely automated. I don't recall the DLR ever going on strike...

I don't think they are VASTLY overpaid, probably 10-15%, but not vast. check out this link. http://www.traindrivertrainee.com/Train-Driver-Pay-and-Conditions.html. It might not be the most difficult job, but since when did difficulty come into pay, lots of difficult jobs for minimum wage aren't there.? You can't make a comparison with a doctor, he screws up and one person dies, a tube driver screws up and potentially hundreds die. So not difficult, but more responsibility perhaps

I do think that the way threats of strike action are levied and bonuses given for not striking during the Olympics is abhorrent.

Cant compare it to a doctor?
Are you ****ing kidding me?

The responsibility a doctor deals with day in day out a life time devoted to the profession, the years of training to qualify and then the endless ongoing training, and long unsocial hours, nights, weekends, not leaving until the job is done, covering crap foreing doctors, dealing with relatives telling them their relative has died day in day out, saving lives every day, are you just being a complete and utter ****?
A driver sits in the cab and shuts the door and presses go then stops the the next station opens the doors.
for ****s sake, you can not imagine the difference