[Closed] Have we done the father takes council to court over school fine and wins yet?

Here's a better idea. Maybe change the tone of your posts.

I've considered your suggestion, and decided not to.

That's Ok we have other methods to encourage you.

Some friends of ours are taking their two kids on a 4 month tour of South America after Christmas. They said it was easier getting approval for 4 months off than a week!

That's Ok we have other methods to encourage you.

Ah, ok. I assume you will use the same methods for the people who were insulting me earlier in the thread.

Presumably ransos doesn't get fined if his holiday is authorised?

Are holidays that important? And if so are the fines too big just to pay?

I'm delighted that Henry and Cecily know how to order an ice cream in Italian, and can follow the complex plotlines of Bob l'éponge, but you'll have to explain why this vital life skill requires them to miss school.

Not only is your inverse snobbery stupid Ransos, it's also inaccurate when it comes to my background. I also said that despite doing this (taking children out) once, we wouldn't again, so another of your jibes misses its target again. There is also the point that insulting me is one thing - insulting my children is a different thing entirely. What will you do next - take aim at my mum too? Just for info - they can order ice cream, also ask for assistance and directions for starters.

Let me pass you some vinegar - it goes well with the chips you are obviously carrying on your shoulder.

artisinal balsamic I presume?

Sarsons malt. As for balsamic, just buy the occasional bottle of supermarket stuff. Not crazy about it.

Are lessons that important? If so why aren't the fines bigger?

If so why aren't the fines bigger?

How much are the fines, surely not so much that the tories cant keep their "hard working" buddies happy and if they arent that much why the stress?

I'd be happier if they just banned parents from asking ne for holiday work.

I'd be happier if they just banned parents from asking ne for holiday work.

🙄

if they arent that much why the stress?

I think the fines are generally £60 per child. So not much of an issue for a plummy middle class type trying to save a few grand on a ski holiday. But a bit of a kick in the teeth to the single parent of five who can't get time off at school holidays.

I think the other factor is that, regardless of the amount, people don't like the idea of being "criminalised" or their actions being reported to social services.

The head teacher at the school my kids go to was happy for my three to miss the first week of term this year. Didn't even ask for a reason. Will it realistically make a difference to their education? Will it hell.

I think the other factor is that, regardless of the amount, people don't like the idea of being "criminalised" or their actions being reported to social services.

This is a huge thing for me. I'm not even that comfortable with taking the parents of truanting children to court. Not sure what it achieves - as opposed to other action.

Not only is your inverse snobbery stupid Ransos, it's also inaccurate when it comes to my background. I also said that despite doing this (taking children out) once, we wouldn't again, so another of your jibes misses its target again. There is also the point that insulting me is one thing - insulting my children is a different thing entirely. What will you do next - take aim at my mum too? Just for info - they can order ice cream, also ask for assistance and directions for starters.

Let me pass you some vinegar - it goes well with the chips you are obviously carrying on your shoulder.

I suspect the irony of complaining about supposed insults by dishing out a few of your own has passed you by. I did try to reply earlier but my post was deleted. Oh well.

I think that if your child's education is so borderline and their prospects so fragile that the risks associated with missing a week or two of school are critical then you have bigger problems than any fines.

Serious answer:

Of course there are people with no choice.
Any system that punishes such people is ludicrous.
This needs saying?

However, people who use double standards to justify their selfishness should be fined.
It does have an effect on other students, not least the amount of time a teacher has to spend helping the child catch up.
Time usefully employed elsewhere.

rusty spanner solves 5 pages in one common sense post - well done that man!

[img] [/img]

How do we measure the double standards?

But yes this is very sensible.

Of course there are people with no choice.
Any system that punishes such people is ludicrous.
This needs saying?

 

However, people who use double standards to justify their selfishness should be fined.

So am I all right then?

No double standard here. I'm taking her out because it'll save me four and a half grand.

4.5k where the **** you going? Or did I miss the whoosh of sarcasm?

I'll be the judge, of course.

I'll need a wage.
And a car.
And I've got some holidays booked.

But I can start Monday and I'll clean out my own litter tray.

other students, not least the amount of time a teacher has to spend helping the child catch up.
Time usefully employed elsewhere

The main reason we've not taken ours out again.

I suspect the irony of complaining about supposed insults by dishing out a few of your own has passed you by. I did try to reply earlier but my post was deleted. Oh well.

I suggested (Albeit strongly) that you have a chip on your shoulder - which if you don't you do a great impression. That would be the only 'insult' I've made - insult singular not multiple. If I wanted to truly insult you I would not waste time making an aside - I would leave you in no doubt. Note, also I haven't cast any insults in the way of your children - and wouldn't. As for irony passing me by - can you not help being patronising?

4.5k where the **** you going?

France. See the image in the earlier posts.

It's the difference between a £2,760 holiday and a £7,436 holiday - same resort/hotel/flights.

I suggested (Albeit strongly) that you have a chip on your shoulder - which if you don't you do a great impression. That would be the only 'insult' I've made - insult singular not multiple. If I wanted to truly insult you I would not waste time making an aside - I would leave you in no doubt. Note, also I haven't cast any insults in the way of your children - and wouldn't. As for irony passing me by - can you not help being patronising?

I very much doubt there's anything you could say that I would find insulting.

You seem to take exception to what is quite obviously a construct made for the purpose of satirizing your overly-earnest self-justification. Unless your children really are called Cecily and Henry (in which case I shall be buying lottery tickets forthwith) then it's difficult to make any conclusion other than you trying extremely hard to find things to be offended about.

I wouldn't take my children out of school for a holiday.
We all value education yet it hardly sets a good example for them, sacking it off just to go on your jollies.

I'd simply choose a holiday I could afford.

The "setting a good example" aspect is obviously a concern.

But then I'm not sure that being a slave to the system and happily paying three times the odds for "a holiday I could afford" is a particularly great example either. 🙁

Smashing the system by taking a cheap holiday. Who knew it was so simple.

I'd simply choose a holiday I could afford

Just in case you missed it. I don't always get holidays when the schools are off.

France. See the image in the earlier posts.

It's the difference between a £2,760 holiday and a £7,436 holiday - same resort/hotel/flights.

£3k for a week in France!

Unless your children really are called Cecily and Henry

you missed Tarquin 😉

mine are going youth hosteling with their Dad, Mum won't slum it there so it's just me and the monsters

But then I'm not sure that being a slave to the system and happily paying three times the odds for "a holiday I could afford" is a particularly great example either

Rusty Spanner - Member

Serious answer:

Of course there are people with no choice.
Any system that punishes such people is ludicrous.
This needs saying?

However, people who use double standards to justify their selfishness should be fined.
It does have an effect on other students, not least the amount of time a teacher has to spend helping the child catch up.
Time usefully employed elsewhere.

Drac - Moderator

Just in case you missed it. I don't always get holidays when the schools are off.

Nope, I didn't miss it. Our circumstances are different. 🙂

£3k for a week in France!

Indeed. Bit nippy!

But £7.5k, if you decide not to "stick it to the man", is considerably nippier!

Hence the man sticking.

I very much doubt there's anything you could say that I would find insulting.

I wouldn't doubt it too much. I just generally try not to offend - please don't infer a lack of capability to offend through absence of evidence.

You seem to take exception to what is quite obviously a construct made for the purpose of satirizing your overly-earnest self-justification.

Overly-earnest? By whose standards?

Self-justification? I'm not justifying anything for myself at all. Not one thing. If you read my posts, I have said in summary:
1). Wouldn't take my children out of school again as I now have a greater appreciation of the disruption it could cause
2). Don't think fines are the answer to any type of absence
3). I can't pretend to understand everyone's circumstance
4). Some parents find it hard to get time together with their families
5). Education is not limited to the classroom
6). That you criticise others, implying bad parenting for taking action you wouldn't - without knowing their familial situation or parenting approach or capability

I have then taken issue with your 'construct' that I have spoilt, over-privileged children and am used to getting my own way due to a sense and reality of entitlement. You call it a construct I call it an insult - targeted at my children in part.

any conclusion other than you trying extremely hard to find things to be offended about.

Yes, you taking a cheap pot-shot at my children as a means to getting to me - offends me. Does that really surprise you?

Here is a radical idea. Try responding to what I have [i]actually[/i] written - rather than responding to [i]what you think I have written[/i] or you would [i]like me to have written[/i] to aid your intellectual 'construct'.

Maybe you could try being less generally objectionable - you may find life is better that way.

you missed Tarquin

Shsssssssssh. We don't talk about Tarquin. Ever.

Just listening to R4 - the whole glib "it doesn't make a difference if they miss a few days" thing makes my teeth itch. Who has responsibility for catching them back up?

been avoiding this thread but the report today has made me tip my 2p in:

I hate this 'let Head Teachers decide' thing.

It's a nightmare for them, as soon as they say yes to *anyone* for any reason the rest of the parents assume they have carte blanche to take kids out and kick off if they're refused.

Either it's always ok to take a kid out of school or it's not.

Allowing heads to 'exercise discretion' is just trying to make someone else take the blame for refusals.

I hate this 'let Head Teachers decide' thing.

It's a nightmare for them, as soon as they say yes to *anyone* for any reason the rest of the parents assume they have carte blanche to take kids out and kick off if they're refused.

Either it's always ok to take a kid out of school or it's not.

Surely you see the difference between a smart pupil with an otherwise perfect attendance record being taken out for the last week of term, and a pupil with poorer attendance who struggles a bit at school who want to go 4 weeks into the term?

I might also see a difference in letting an otherwise not particularly sporty/active pupil take time off for a ski trip, or the difference between visiting a significant family/cultural/religious event rather than simply sitting beside a pool.

Why would head teachers who know the pupils, know the planned learning that week and possibly even know the parents' circumstances not be in a position to form a judgement - or even to "publish" a set of principles they will follow.

[i] the difference between visiting a significant family/cultural/religious event rather than simply sitting beside a pool.[/i]

As a head you probably can, there do seem to be a significant number of parents who can't though.

Interesting to see the usual lines of argument here.

Some teachers, Many without kids and some who don't want to take their kids on holiday saying it is bad, and always bad.

Some saying - "they are my kids, so I get the final say in everything" [they aren't and you don't]

And some in between.

As an adult and parent and an adult learner one learns just how good some teachers are, and how bad others are, and how badly schools deal with the bad ones. Also how much end-of-term class time is wasted until year 9 or 10.

The idea that a teacher, by losing 3% of their year's lessons with [b]any [/b]given child, is going to be given a huge mountain to climb to "catch-up" the child is laughable.

The whole issue, IMHO, requires some common sense.

Children who are performing well, motivated and able to self-task to work in the school holiday, and who are going on a holiday which is either educational, or stretches them in terms of sport, physical skills or self-sufficiency, should be allowed to go.
Those who aren't perhaps shouldn't - except for once in a lifetime opportunities.

This requires a sensitive and intelligent approach, something which Governments seem less inclined to allow teachers. And sometimes there seems a dogmatic jobsworth attitude of some Heads who are often failing children in much more harmful ways, by tolerating mediocrity in their staff.

The idea that a teacher, by losing 3% of their year's lessons with any given child, is going to be given a huge mountain to climb to "catch-up" the child is laughable.

Children who are performing well, motivated and able to self-task to work in the school holiday, and who are going on a holiday which is either educational, or stretches them in terms of sport, physical skills or self-sufficiency, should be allowed to go.

And would you agree that the parents are the *wrong* people to make this call? As your view and a professionals may vary hugely.

If people find school rules so hard why don't they home school? As they obviously find formal education timetables too restrictive and the parents know best 🙂

Personally my son will not miss a day of school so I can have a cheap holiday, but then again I come from a working class background (my father was taken out of school at 14 to put food on the table, as school wasn't for our type...) So I appreciated 'free' schooling for what it is and its impact on how your life pans out.

I didn't realise (somewhat stupidly) that it doesn't and can't apply to private schools.

So if you're properly middle class it's OK anyway 🙂

Well put, richc

Millions of parents in the world would give their soul to have their kids get the education ours do. So that their kids could have the chance to have a lifestyle that includes even the word "holiday".

Unless you have very special family circumstances (Drac) I don't see why a term time holiday is a requirement of modern life.

I have fixed holiday I had some in Jan then April and finally some in September this year non of it in school holidays. I asked the head for permission to take kids out for a week and it was granted after I got a letter from work proving I wasn't lying for her files. Kids are only 6 and 8 at the moment so they didn't miss much but as they get older unless my leave happens to fall right they will end up having no holidays as she told me that it wouldn't get granted had they been older:(

I have no problems with the term time rules but there should be a system in place for workers with fixed leave periods.