[Closed] Have I borke the law, am I a thief?

Let them know they can come and collect the item at a specified time convenient to yourself.

However, you will first need to invoice them for admin, storage and processing fees which come to £600. You require this to be paid prior to releasing the item.

+1 for Mr C. They delivered it, too bad.

You're either a troll or a thief
Are you really surprised at the replies?
How would you like the shop to screw you for £600, say by taking your money then going bankrupt before delivery?

Oh, FFS! You're all missing the important part!

ON-ONE MUST BE IN THE FURNITURE BUSINESS! 😉

However, you will first need to invoice them for admin, storage and processing fees which come to £600. You require this to be paid prior to releasing the item.

This was my Dad's idea. Tell them its in storage at their cost, charge them £50 a day, plus admin and tell them they are ringing you on a premium rate number and send them an invoice for thousands.
My wife is calling them back today to see how they want to proceed. The unsolicited goods link is a very good point.

nonk - Member

Makes note to self

Never ever deal with pete1979 the guy is complete nobber..

Cheers Nonk, looking back through your posts I doubt I would deal with you anyway. Most of your items were overpriced and I suspect thats why you were unable to sell them.

Peter just at the minute in the debate with your furniture store you are both equally wrong don't risk making your self into the Prat by trying to capitalize on their error or you could end up at least out of pocket.

all the mis delivered and returned stuff gets auctioned.

Wow. Simply wow, I know it must be difficult for them but to simply sweep all that revenue/stock under the carpet in this day and age- no wonder Argos is struggling.

Bad korma innit...

This could fall under 'Theft by finding'. If you 'find' something where you can't reasonably identify the legitimate owner then you can keep it with a clear conscience - you find a tenner in the park, how can you reasonably trace the owner. I recently had a delivery of car wheel trims - addressed to my house but not to my name, no return info on or in the package, non of my neighbours by that name, name not in the local phone book - so I can't return or forward to anyone. It didn't give me a choice other than to keep or dispose of them as if they were mine, I couldn't offer or return them to anyone else.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding ]"Theft by Finding"[/url] is where the owner of the goods are easy to identify - if the tenner in the park is in a wallet that also contains a name and address for instance.

Friend of mine was cautioned for using a old shopping trolley to move his scaffolding clips about. He'd found it years earlier on a derelict site he was working on but because it said "Sainsburys" on the handle it was obvious who the owner was - even though he hadn't taken it from them and it probably hadn't been in their possession for years prior to him acquiring it. So he could have left it where it was, or taken it returned it to the owner, but taking and using knowing it is someone else's is theft within that definition.

no wonder Argos is struggling.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/16/argos-dixons-christmas-sales-online-retail ]Struggling? Really?[/url]

AFAIK, don't they sell more Apple products than any other retailer? There's something I like about Argos - they were doing "Click & Collect" before the term was even coined. 🙂

Does opinion differ depending on the source, value and type of item?

Quite a few years back I bought a one ticket for a sold out festival off ebay so I could go with a group who bought their tickets earlier. I paid about £90 over the face value - just short of double the face value. Couple of days before the festival 2 tickets show up.
[Limmy] What would you do? [/Limmy]

RM.

Just answer their calls and arrange collection.

It's not a "victimless crime" - as has been said, someone will be getting a shoeing for this, they might not get sacked right away, but it will go against them.

It's also a big amount of money worth of stock. If they had failed to deliver to you after taking your money (i.e. the boot on the other foot) I am sure you'd be crying all over the forums.

We need to break this stupid assertion that it's ok to rip off a company. It's not.

Question is,do you have the money to pay for it if they ask for it,want it,demand it,feel like they have been hoodwinked and take you to court for thieving it knowing full well you have it,not like it can get lost in the post is it?

Bad korma innit...

Stop trying to curry favour...

Bottom line is you KNOW what you've done is wrong, or you wouldn't have asked.

Do whatever you want, but be prepared to live with the consequences.

and shocked at your assumption that people on here would go bent for 600 quid.

Slippery slope, you pretty much accepted that you'd be dishonest just that we need to haggle some more over price 😉

nonk - Member
Makes note to self
Never ever deal with pete1979 the guy is complete nobber..

Keeping quiet about it is a morally grey area (light grey tho), fobbing off the person on the phone is pretty dodgy, but I assume your wife only did that so you could decide how to [s]play it[/s] 'fess up and offer to pay - all IMO obviously.

Those mentioning someone at the retailers may get into trouble over this, are you sure? Sounds a bit melodramatic, probably due to a computer glitch, I know every **** up with an order I've had has been blamed on those pesky computers

probably just a computer glitch

More likely a Computer Embolism (clot on the keyboard)!

It's not a "victimless crime" - as has been said, someone will be getting a shoeing for this, they might not get sacked right away, but it will go against them.

As I've said previously. Someone at a local bikeshop put a bike through the till at 10% of the price it should have been. The mistake was spotted later on and the shop tried for quite a few times to get hold of the customers. Eventually after writing to him he replied. He said he'd pay but not the full price but a fair price.

What a price ****ing cock.

Now the shop was Evans. Some might say its a big company-tough they can take it but then every day they'll be getting dodgy credit cards, staff stealing, mistakes, shoplifting etc etc ontop of this.

The person who entered the price at 10%. I don't know what happened to him but what if he was in his probation period still? Manager looking to reduce staff hours etc etc etc?

Don't listen to the vast vast majority, it sounds like they're all jealous you've got a free piece of furniture.
Enjoy your [s]swag[/s] luck.

For me it doesn't matter if the business is Barclays, a small coffee shop giving you change for £20 instead of £5 or a small bikeshop. I believe in paying a fair price for everything.

Binners will remember this one- years ago I noticed a newly listed set of Marzocchi forks on Ebay by a Peaks-based bike business. I hit buy it now and received and email from the shop saying 'hey I made a complete mistake on the price but I will honour it'. I called them and refused to take it at the price but the bloke INSISTED, was abit of a too-and fro. I wanted to pay more and he insisted so I relented, paid and just didn't feel comfortable so eventually sold them to binners at the same price I'd paid.

Oim considerably more honester than yow!

I called them and refused to take it at the price

Sucker.

A certain large internet retailer double delivered a telly to me, I got it returned and got credited for it. I mailed them twice to point out the mistake and then gave up. It seemed easier to ignore than deal with.

I now think of it as reclaiming some unpaid corporation tax and redistributing it to the 'hard working families' and sleep easily 🙂

I called them and refused to take it at the price...

Now that's just stupid.

by chance its from DFS? ..i am in the stock team, and i am looking for a missing sofa since xmas 🙄

have you checked behind the sofa?

heisenberg - Member

by chance its from DFS? ..i am in the stock team, and i am looking for a missing sofa since xmas

Haha, no. Its not.

"and shocked at your assumption that people on here would go bent for 600 quid.
so what your basically saying is I'd have to offer you atleast a grand to "go bent"?"

I once in the spirit of inquiry worked out my price to go bent given that I would never be able to work again in the job I sort of love. It was significantly more that £1000 just for it to be economically worth while . Now knowing I would lose the respect of crankygirl I would not go bent at any price.

i am in the stock team, and i am looking for a missing sofa since xmas

Have you looked behind the..oh, wait.

Mr C has hit the nail on the head, but people continue to speculate and judge the OP. Could be a few apologies due here.
OP, I think keep it and give em the rods if they want it back. Send out unsolicited goods, it gets kept, tough shite.

have you checked behind the sofa?

Which one? The OP has several.

£600 sofa = £100 Vat that doesn't then go to pay for schools and healthcare. Plus a few pounds of corporation tax on whatever profits might be declared by the company. No such thing as victimless crime, even when dealing with large (greedy) corporations.
This means that your theft isn't just from the company, it's from all of us too. Please take it on the chin, pay for the sofa and re-adjust a bit.

just to be very clear it would be dangerous to rely on a 2005 article in the guardian to understand the current effect of the unsolicited goods act 1971. legislalion.gov.uk is as clear as mud but implies the you get to keep stuff if 6 months have past and you serve notice and do all the right things rule has been repealed . the act never made it a crime to send unsolicited goods. It did make it a crime to demand payment and refuse to accept return .In any event it is really a weak argument to suggest goods you have ordered and then cancelled are unsolicited.

Those mentioning someone at the retailers may get into trouble over this, are you sure? Sounds a bit melodramatic, probably due to a computer glitch, I know every **** up with an order I've had has been blamed on those pesky computers

Updates -

My wife called the woman back who was quite to the point and said we need to pay for the item. My wife informed them that we would like to return it. The woman said this is not possible. My wife has said to call back tomorrow as she does not have access to the funds to pay it at this moment.

Now, I was happy to pay for it, but to be told that there is no possibility of a return. Is this right? The lady on the phone said that it is outside of the return period. But surely that is now there problem?

You are in the right this time.
The order was cancelled, they delivered by mistake, you accepted delivery by mistake, so they must take it back if you don't want to pay for it.
IMHO

Now, I was happy to pay for it, but to be told that there is no possibility of a return. Is this right? The lady on the phone said that it is outside of the return period. But surely that is now there problem?

This is where you get your haggling skills out the cupboard. They obviously don't want it back, as they cannot sell it as new for the same price....plus the hassle of collecting it, but they cannot compel you to pay for it due to them delivering by mistake.

Offer them 75% of the value. Seems fair.

Just tell them to come get it.

They cancelled, they delivered.

You never bought it so how can it be "out of the return" period.

a £600 sofa will likely only 'cost' them 200 --or even less --there is staggering mark ups on these things--very basic soft wood frame with some padding and a cover--huge amount of marketing --offer them 200 -take the money or take the sofa--say you won't charge them storage if they are prompt..

Prior to Xmas you ordered a sofa. Then the sofa was delivered in error. You said nothing and kept the sofa hoping never to have to pay for somebody else's property that you planned to keep. You have accepted the item and used it for a month. When contated by the supplier you have evaded and then lied about not being in a position to pay. It has been pointed out to you that the only way you are not a thief is if you do not realise that ordinary decent people would think it was wrong to try and take advantage of someones mistake to keep 600 of goods that were not yours.

The only way you come out of this ahead is if the supplier is lazy or stupid. Why not pay for the product you wanted delivered in the timeframe you wanted at the price you agreed. Said product being more to your taste than the alternative.

If you've used it pay the price you originally agreed.

If you've kept it unused in original packaging then tell them to come and get it.

Just feels like someone trying to get something for nothing by tying themselves in moral knots about nuances.

Now your at this stage then you need to tell them they have to collect it as you cancelled the order and have evidence that you did unless they can come to some sort of arrangement. Make sure you return it as it was delivered though don't take the protective covering off and don't use it.

Shouldn't have accepted delivery in the first place course it would have been a lot easier.

Edit: Dyslexia fixed.

Now your at this stage then you need to them they have to collect it as you cancelled the order and have evidence that you did unless they can come to some sort of arrangement. Make sure you return it as it was delivered though don't take the protective covering off and don't use it.

[img] [/img]

Did I miss when this was defined as a sofa?!

I mentioned it somewhere earlier in the thread.

The sofa was unwrapped by the delivery driver the day it was delivered. Too late for it to be classed as unused.

Why didnt you refuse delivery?

hora - Member

Why didnt you refuse delivery?

I wasn't home. My wife wasnt 100% sure we had been refunded it. The fact is we accepted the delivery.
Immediately after it was delivered my wife phoned me to say it had been delivered and I just thought 'cool, free sofa. I'll check to see if it was refunded'.

My wife wasnt 100% sure we had been refunded it.

Yeah we get that but she still could have refused it.

My wife wasnt 100% sure we had been refunded it.

Yeah we get that but she still could have refused it.

True.

So are you going to pay for the goods you accepted and used?

crankboy - Member

So are you going to pay for the goods you accepted and used?

Probably not. It depends on what the lady on the phone says tomorrow. If she gets all matter of fact about paying for it then i'll say come and get it. Then buy another. From them.

Why not just do the right thing and pay for the sofa that you are enjoying the benefit of? Your last few posts suggest an intention from the outset to steal the sofa.

You're not proving any point other than showing yourself up.

*Edit: I doubt very much the "unsolicited goods" ruse would stick. All that has to be proven is that you DID place an order and so solicit the goods and make payment for said goods, and that the extra item is as a result of a despatch error, not sending unsolicited. I know that if this happened at my work, I'd be gunning for you.

Why would they bother to collect it? You accepted delivery and have used it. It would be cheaper and easier for them to sue you and add the $80 fixed costs to their profit.

I'm definitely going for troll. Surely nobody can be proud of being such a **** - and also being wrong.

Does seem to have gone from;

"If I legally have to pay I'm going to"

to

"I'm not paying regardless"

I'm definitely going for troll. Surely nobody can be proud of being such a **** - and also being wrong.

10/10 though. I'm loving it so far. Totally amoral with wife and parents who are at least as bad. Only waiting to hear if he's got kids now

Op is playing the long game.

You should break it and send it back under warranty. Ask for a refund due to not being fit for purpose!

[img] [/img]

Op is playing the chaize longue game.

You've got a sofa you wanted for a price you were happy to pay. So pay for it, enjoy it and sleep well, safe in the knowledge that you simply carried out a transaction whereby money is exchanged for goods. Which is basically how it works.

Op is playing the chaize longue game.

Sofa, that is the worse pun I have heard today. You didn't even try to cushion the blow...

[img] [/img]

So is the link Mr C provided accurate? If it is why is the OP getting a hard time exactly, its them that have committed an offence (if the link is correct)

Either way hes clearly not a thief, but his morals are slightly dubious. That said, I'd be sorely tempted to take Jamie's advice and haggle. Especially if its been reduced subsequently

Either way, if you can prove you cancelled the order you definitely don't need to pay for it and keep it. You may well legally have to return it however.

The link is incorrect try googleing the act and looking at the current version. Also unless the delivery driver pushed the sofa into the house against his wife's protests that she did not want it then it was hardly unsolicited. The op is getting a hard time as has been pointed out above his only argument to say he is not guilty of theft is to maintain he genuinely believes that right thinking people would see nothing wrong in keeping other peoples valuable property if you got your hands on it by mistake.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/consumer_problems_with_delivery_e/consumer_unsolicited_goods_e/youve_received_goods_or_services_you_didnt_ask_for_distance_sales.htm

Basically, unsolicited means that you did not order the item. I ordered the item. They told me they were unable to deliver in time. I cancelled the order with them(have proof), they delivered it (unsolicited), Wife accepted the delivery. Kept it, slept on it once, bought scatter cushions for it. They want it back. Tell me I have to pay for it, no returns. Law says otherwise. Im a thief. Morally devoid. Haven't slept well since.

[quote=peter1979 ]Basically, unsolicited means that you did not order the item. I ordered the item.

This appears to be the point where your case falls down. That and:

Kept it, slept on it once

But you had the money and wanted the sofa, what's the problem with paying now ?

Basically, unsolicited means that you did not order the item. I ordered the item. They told me they were unable to deliver in time. I cancelled the order with them(have proof), they delivered it (unsolicited)

The fact there is proof you ordered it and paid for it completely wipes out the "unsolicited" angle. All that has happened is that there has been a despatch error - and I am 100% confident this would stand up in court.

Hopefully this thread is found by the company in question so they have documented evidence of your deliberate attempt to deprive them of their property without paying for it.

wwaswas - Member

But you had the money and wanted the sofa, what's the problem with paying now ?

I had pretty much come made my decision to pay for the sofa, but following my wife's phone conversation with grotbags who told her that there was no chance or a return because its 'out of its returns period' I began to change my mind.

Also i'm worried that it will feel less comfy once I've paid for it.

Jizz on it. This is the only viable option I can see.

[quote=peter1979 ]Also i'm worried that it will feel less comfy once I've paid for it.

I expect it will also feel less comfy once they've taken you to court to get their money. Though I'm surprised it fits under your bridge anyway.

Also i'm worried that it will feel less comfy once I've paid for it.

[img] [/img]

Taking some kind of moral stand because you didn't like the way the lady spoke to your wife is a stupid response. That is a purely subjective and hard to prove thing.

The bit that is easy to prove is that you ordered and paid for a sofa. You subsequently got a pre-despatch refund but a despatch error led to you still getting it. You are now deliberately attempting to deprive the company of their property without paying for it, known in common conversation as stealing it. Just do the right thing and pay for it.

*Edit - wondering how many "well known high street retailers" as described by the OP there could be that are relevant to this situation. I'd imagine it's not many.

So basically what your saying now is, that because a member of staff, who in your wife's opinion, was a bit obnoxious, you now have a green light to steal the sofa after all.

So far you've had to ask whether you're a thief for stealing furniture, whether you can make some extra money out of them for storing the furniture you've stolen and somehow feel aggrieved and of the opinion you're now owed something because you've found the staff a bit grumpy.

**** 'em... Nick it

Anyone that gets sanctimonious with you? Poke 'em in the eye with a shitty finger..
Everyone has a price at which their morals can be compromised.. Yours is £600

don't feel bad about it, we all have a right to be proud

One unknown consequence is the fate of the staff member who is responsible for you getting £600 worth of stock for free. They make a mistake, you act like a **** and get a free sofa/bed and they have to get a new job. It does happen.

You have no contract with these people. You cancelled it and were refunded. Distance Selling Regs do not apply. There is no returns period. If they want to come and collect their property, they are more than welcome to do so at your convenience.

Personally, I would have phoned them immediately and paid up, as I actually wanted the goods. However, if a company got snotty with me because they had ballsed up and sent me an item I had cancelled, I would be highly tempted to make life inconvenient for them by only offering them the option of coming and getting it. I'd write to head office making this clear so that I have a paper trail of 'doing the right thing'.

I suspect they do not want it back under any circumstances, hence the insistence that you are in some kind of contract with them and need to cough up the cash.

+1 to [b]MartinHutch[/b]'s view.

You have no contract with these people. You cancelled it and were refunded.

Correct. But what that overlooks is that a despatch error took place and the retailer's property accidentally ended up in the OP's possession, without any contract for transfer of ownership taking place. In other words, it is still the retailer's property. By deliberately withholding something that belongs to the retailer, he is therefore stealing it.

By deliberately withholding something that belongs to the retailer, he is therefore stealing it.

Of course, which is why he should have the choice of either paying for it or returning it, rather than just one of those options. At the moment, although his posts suggest he would quite like to hang onto it gratis, he's not [i]quite[/i] crossed the line yet.