[Closed] Hatred for the Daily Mail

Class

No more politically-slanted than say..the Guardian 😯

And given the swastikas in your link I'm surprised the "anti facists" haven't demanded that the Mail is banned outright.

Why do some lefties burn with hatred so much? Take two topical issues at hand, namely immigration and racism. If popular opinion is to be believed then one seems to be the preserve of the left (pro-uncontrolled immigration), the other of the right (all right wingers are racists) Racism isn't out of control in any way compared to immigration, yet it's the left who seem most angry and filled with hatred. Ironic that aint it.

Aint it "Hope not Hate" etc?

Sir, I suggest you are a closet right winger stoking up a fight...

Enfit - immigration is not uncontrolled in the UK - that is the point. We have some of the tightest immigration controls in the world. We take a very small number of non EU immigrants. What is happening is the right wing press whip up a [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic ]moral panic[/url] in order to further their racist agenda, to sell more papers or simply following the herd.

The effects of Racism are less than they were - due to the effect of the left you so hate agitating over this for decades. However it remains a htreat as embodied by the BNP

Spherical male objects

And TJ do you honestly believe you're views on racism are balanced?

Daily Mail readers should be sent back to where they came from.

And i include my Mum when i say that. 😀

enfit. Your? Yore? Yaw? 🙂

My views on racism are totally balanced. I am oft misrepresented on here tho. I call racism where I see it. People on here often claim I have called racism where I haven't.

What I said about immigration is completely true. We take a very small amount of non EU immigrants and less asylum seekers than other countries. A simple fact.

We need immigrants to run our services. Another fact. Without them our services would collapse.

We take a very small number of [b]non EU[/b] immigrants

How many EU migrants then TJ? Does the Govt know yet, after their "wildy innacurate" intial forecast of, I think, 49,000ish... Since access to the UK for EU residents [b]was[/b] unrestricted since 2004, it can hardly be termed "controlled".

I'd love it if reality reared it's bulbous tip and the pro/anti immigration arguments could be discussed without the red herring of Racism. It's boring.

EDIT

We need immigrants to run our services. Another fact.

No, we need livable wages for those working in our services, unless you believe there is no option but declining living standards for those doing so. Remind yourself, it's not a demographics problem. There are plenty of potential bin men and nurses here already, we either don't want to pay them or train them.

EU immigration is uncontrolled by its nature. EU involves freedom to travel within the EU. Hence all the brits retiring to Spain. A similar number to the working EU immigrants who come to the UK IIRC - a few hundred thousand.

I'd love it if reality reared it's bulbous tip and the pro/anti immigration arguments could be discussed without the red herring of Racism. It's boring.

There might be some legitimate concern about immigration, but the Mail and Express certainly don't have anything to do with it.

yet it's the left who seem most angry and filled with hatred

one can be angry without hatred...

dr dolittle
are you suggesting communism, all wages to be equal??

A similar number to the working EU immigrants who come to the UK IIRC - a [b]few hundred thousand.[/b]

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5273356.stm ]From the BBC in 2006.[/url]

I'd also suggest that the retirees moving to Spain are quite likely to have the capital to look after themselves should they require help, and bar putting pressure on housing in the area they relocate to, do not negatively impact the population of Spain to quite the same degree that a young immigrant workforce that is able to work for peanuts for a few years then return home with their earnings has on a young workforce that has to consider the longterm practicalities of living here, and has no other country in the EU to move to and earn the same nest egg.

but Dr Doolittle what is it you dont like about foreigners? why dont you want them working here

dr dolittle
are you suggesting communism, all wages to be equal??

Does it look like I am?

I'm suggesting that declining material standards of living for a large proportion of the country could be avoided, or at least decreased, by real training opportunities and better wages for those doing service industry jobs, and that mass immigration leads to lower wages for these people.

I'm also saying that I'm really tired of how that cannot be discussed without cheerleaders for the NeoLiberal Right throwing accusations of "Racism" around with glee abandon knowing full well that it will shut down any dissent.

I watched one of these "Let's all bugger off to Spain" type programmes about a chap doing the whole reverse immigrant thing. He was a taxi driver in Britain and wanted to move there with his wife and two young children for the usual reasons - Britain too expensive, weather, too many bloody foreigners etc.

He decided to support himself by becoming a pool cleaner, a low paid job about which he knew naff all, and spent the entire programme muttering about how crap Spain was, how he was treated shabbily because he was foreign etc. His kids went into a Spanish school and his wife set up a part time business doing beauty treatments. The programme only covered a few months but I expect that sooner or later he got fed up and came back to Britain. 🙂

but Dr Doolittle what is it you dont like about foreigners?

What makes you think I don't like foreigners? The people I dislike in this situation are all White British politicians.

Dr doolittle - there can be a debate about immigration which is not racist - as you show above. However the norm is that people objecting to immigration are being racist. Therefore it is hard for those who use kneejerk reactions to separate the two issues.

oh you only dislike the people that let the foreigners in, well thats different

[i]cheerleaders for the NeoLiberal Right [/i]

I'm losing track. Do you mean Jeremy? 🙂

However the norm is that people objecting to immigration are being racist.

Many are, I don't doubt it. Since 2004 however, and the "unexpected" influx of EU residents, a new situation has arisen, that which I have attempted to allude to above. My observations lead me to believe that there are many who would in the past have considered themselves "liberal" or "of the Left" and are now indulging their twitchy knee and shutting down what is a debate about how Govt policy further disadvantages those already at the lower strata of British society. Of course this technique is also being used by the establishment unaffected by this change and set to profit from more people going for the same amount of work. Supply and demand.

oh you only dislike the people that let the foreigners in, well thats different

100% correct. Well done.

Dr dolittle i believe you are complaining because immigrants are taking british workers jobs

have worked very summer between uni in various factories/crappy agency jobs in fair luton i can confirm that by far and away some of the laziest workshy freeloading scumbags i have ever come across are white and english, with george cross bumper stickers and a suspect a family tradition of criminal activity and milking every kind of free benefit they can out the system.

The presence or absence of immigrants is irrelevant, quite frankly id be happy to have any of the dilligent conscientous nigerians, poles, columbians etc who work in my hospital over the afore-mentioned white english lay-abouts

i agree that education, training and a huge increase in the basic wage are whats needed, eg thousands of poles travel to east anglia every year to pick crops because the locals wont do the job, is it really fair to deny someone who wants to work the opportunity to do so because they werent born here when the brits dont want the job

by far and away some of the laziest workshy freeloading scumbags i have ever come across are white and english

He did say 'some' though.
Plenty of lattitude for other races or countries to have workshy freeloading scumbags too 🙂

fair one, what race were the others?

Dr dolittle i believe you are complaining because immigrants are taking british workers jobs

I tried my hardest to expain my position. If you don't understand it or think the situation described is a good thing, well there's little I can do.

Dr Dolittle - I understood your point. I don't agree with you completley and there are complex factors that you don't account for but its a clear and rational point without xenophobia IMO

there are complex factors that you don't account for

Such as? I'm fully cognisant of the purpose of "the free movement of labour" within the EU. That is what this boils down to. I'd suggest "The Grapes of Wrath" as a starter if I was a pretentious type.

As for the knee jerk hate spew courtesy of Kimbers above, I'd suggest cancelling the subscription to whatever loathsome NeoLib publication jerks his chain.

Dr dollitle. One of the main sources of jobs for EU immigrants is in care homes. There is not a free market in care homes as there is a cap on fees ( from state funding which is the bulk of funding). Much of what happens is regulated as regards to the number of staff on duty and so on - the result is wages are depressed and cannot rise to increase recruitment as there is not the money to do so.

Same with NHS - wages cannot rise without government agreement.

Therefore the influx of people willing to work for these wages does not depress the wage levels as the wage levels are held down by other direct and indirect means.

That is one factor. In this case the influx of immigrants does not hold down the wages

In this case the influx of immigrants does not hold down the wages

True dat. I wonder why the Govt would spend [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4943870.stm ]£100,000 of tax payers cash[/url] on training each nurse, then suggest we "need" others from the EU to do the same job.

My experience is observing skilled tradesmen with many years of experience undercut by young men from EU countries without the same outgoings or long term cost associated with living in the UK. Now I suppose for certain sections of society this is a good thing, until that is the end result of unemployment and financial stress decides to climb in through their kitchen window and pinch the Philippe Starck lemon squeezer.

I was in Cologne over 'that' new years when Europe changed to the Euro. We went to a nightclub (dont recall name) and the change over from Marks was flawless. Got home and read my mums (think Hyacynth Bucket) Daily Mail, which had a report from that same Cologne nightclub about how the change over went. What a load of tosh- they said there was mass confusion and que's comeing out of the door.
What a load of ****locks! 🙄

My experience is observing skilled tradesmen with many years of experience undercut by young men from EU countries without the same outgoings or long term cost associated with living in the UK.

Were these the same tradesman who have been making huge amounts of money charging what many would call exorbitant rates. Isn't this meant to be how free market capitalism works?

[i]I'd suggest cancelling the subscription to whatever loathsome NeoLib publication jerks his chain. [/i]

well i only subscribe to dirt, its noy very neolib afaik

My experience is observing skilled scientists with many years of experience from EU countries (and beyond) without the same outgoings or long term cost associated with living in the UK coming to our labs bringing expertise and knowledge to the world class leading institutes in this country.
They are here because they are the best candidates for the job are they taking the jobs uk graduates could be geting? yes
do they help make uk institutes among the best in the world?-yes
I also see the queues of polish casual labourers waiting to be picked up by builders coming off the a4 at hammersmith in the mornings both groups contribute to our economy, they are here to work let them, if uk workers arent competitive enough they will have to raise their standards, surely this is good for them and all of us
the protectionism you want drdolittle will weaken the country

Were these the same tradesman who have been making huge amounts of money charging what many would call exorbitant rates.

I couldn't possibly say. They were charging the going rate for the skills that those paying for them didn't have, that's free market capitalism for you... You wouldn't be one of those middleclass types who can't understand the value of blue collar skills, would you grumm? If there were [b]huge amounts of money to be made[/b], why oh why did you not avail yourself of the opportunity rather than storing up so much bitterness against those horny handed sons of toil?

EDIT.Since I'm in a supposing mood, I'll suppose you think that the hourly rate of a plumber is unrelated to to the dearth of affordable training courses and modern apprenticeships in the UK, and that it was therefore essential to bring in folks from eastern European countries "to do jobs the British don't want to do"? For "exorbitant rates"? Crazy logic.

By the way, I'd love to see an immigration policy for the UK similar to that of Australia or Canada. Then kimbers could rest easy that his favourite source of cheap labour, ie everybody apart from those lazy,

white and english... workshy freeloading scumbags

This is the best bit

if uk workers arent competitive enough they will have to raise their standards,

And what exactly do you mean by "competitive" Kimbers? You don't mean "cheaper" by any chance, do you? That would mean that instead of improving this country, they are simply leading the race to the bottom in wages and working standards. I'm sure that's not what you meant though, I really get the impression that your unoriginal NeoLib/Nulabour ideology is well thought through and altruistic to the core.

You wouldn't be one of those middleclass types who can't understand the value of blue collar skills, would you grumm? If there were huge amounts of money to be made, why oh why did you not avail yourself of the opportunity rather than storing up so much bitterness against those horny handed sons of toil?

Not really no, and I'm certainly not bitter - never had much skill or interest in the 'trades'. I just think some people have had it pretty cushy for quite a few years and are now quite bitter that it's not going to be quite so cushy any more.

They were charging the going rate for the skills that those paying for them didn't have, that's free market capitalism for you...

And now they (and you) are whining about it when the system doesn't work out quite as favourably for them.

BTW - 'horny handed sons of toil' - pretentious expression of the day I think, well done! 🙂

I just think some people have had it pretty cushy for quite a few years and are now quite bitter that it's not going to be quite so cushy any more.

Ahh, middleclass schadenfraude...again I'll ask, why do you resent someone with a decent income...are you a communist?

BTW - 'horny handed sons of toil' - pretentious expression of the day I think, well done!

How about "pearls before swine", in the context of humour?

why do you resent someone with a decent income...are you a communist?

I've no problem with decent tradesmen making a decent living - however the shortage of some tradesmen in certain areas meant muppets and cowboys could also make a decent living. Not a good thing surely?

Why do you resent foreign workers so much?

[i]I'd love to see an immigration policy for the UK similar to that of Australia ...[/i]
of that of I have no doubt dr
[img] [/img]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3023107.stm

Why do you resent foreign workers so much?

Although I've endeavoured above to make this clear, and I certainly do not feel obliged to do so, I'll say it once again.

I do not dislike foreigners, foreign workers, workers from abroad or any other possible permuation of the above. I am aware however of the negative effect of the open border EU immigration policy and what it has resulted in for many people in this country. I dislike intensely the political grouping that introduced a policy with no democratic consent that has made the lives of a great section of the population much more difficult than it was already or needed to be. I also feel obliged to challenge people that repeat without apparent thought the mantra of cheap=good, flexible=/=bend over and accept the new shiny face of Mandelson and co's shafting by global financial "NGOs".

however the shortage of some tradesmen in certain areas meant muppets and cowboys could also make a decent living.

And why was there a shortage if huge amounts of money were to be made? Because the pathways for training haven't changed in 30 years. And since Thatcher's well documented disgust for the (potentially unionised) working class, continued by Major and taken to the nth degree by Blair, our pathways and funding, let alone facilities for training in the trades has and continues to be neglected.

I'd rather see real, not for profit training centres training those who need it in this country rather than the £3,000 mickeymouse courses jobcentre staff are required to refer customers to. And I'd also like to see a repeal on the refuted ideology that all service jobs should be contracted out to profit making companies, hopefully so that those doing the jobs could afford to live a life of a standard recognisable to their parents.

When you stop giving a shit about this you may as well just give up on the UK, or whever you live. It seems lots of people have already done so. If you can find anything Racist/xenophobic in this well that's your problem.

Not really interested in getting into this discussion but as a point of information Dr Dolittle you might want to check the meaning of neo-liberal.

fwiw doc i totally agree with you on the vocational training issue and that it is something successive governments have done and will(whoever gets in) continue to completely neglect.

I'd love to see an immigration policy for the UK similar to that of Australia ...
of that of I have no doubt dr

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3023107.stm
br />

Charming Kimbers. You lose an argument and think no one will notice the conflation of immigration with refugee? Even the average STWer isn't that stupid.

And Nico, I'm well aware of what a Neo Liberal is. I wouldn't have used the term otherwise.

i thought youd like that

and funnily enough i dont see that ive lost, but then neither do you

i thought youd like that

and funnily enough i dont see that ive lost, but then neither do you

Yes, I know I've been wasting my time.

if a house in this country costs £150,000 you need the average person earning enough to be able to afford this. If you have a group coming to this country with the sole reason purpose of living as cheaply as possible whilst saving they will not have the same overheads as someone trying to buy a house and raise a family.

Depress wages the population can't afford housing people start to bitch etc.

It is arguable that wages are to high or to low with knock on consequences to prices cost of servies etc. What is less arguable is that the cost of housing in the UK is too high. And before anyone trots out the argument of supply and demand forcing prices up. Yes, but the supply issue is down to government policy restricting the supply of land. There is not an absolute shortage of land yet.

Right I have not read all of Drdo comment as it is quite early in the morning to get some high blood pressure.

I'd like to had some comment about your view on the EU. The shear principle of the EU is not allowing private companies to run train/gas/electricity. It is to provide for people (and sadly goods) to travel from one country to the other in complete freedom (that mean that I should not have to show 15 times my passport in heathrow). See it means I can come and vist WCA peterpoddy, TJ, al foxychick etc etc without having to go the the british consul and apply for a visa, thus allowing me to randomly decide to spend a week end in Scotland. IT also allow people that are willing to work hard to move around and to earn some money to be able to support their families. Do you think there is too much foreign working in UK? Well too bad. If they manage to find jobs it means one thing, they was jobs available.
Now about that:

and bar putting pressure on housing in the area they relocate

The Observer is really getting on my tats now. Front page leading article in the Review section this week slyly promoted a Poker playing website. Not once but bloody constant sly references.

I wouldnt knock the Mail when you have the comic's Mirror and Sun.

I am aware however of the negative effect of the open border EU immigration policy and what it has resulted in for many people in this country.

I concur, well actually not. What I do not like in the EU "open market" is that the perfectly good working structures of public services are being dismantled to the profit of private companies, bringing down the service and increasing the cost for the consumers.

As for people comming to the Uk to work and therefore bringing down the cost of the trade. I suggest you do something. Sit at the end off one of this shinny building around liverpool street station. Now ask someone with a nice tie and suit if he'd like to have a job where he can earn around 4000£ a week. Now tell him the job is manual (plumber, builder) etc etc and see him run away.

"Rich" EU countries can only benefit from EU open borders in terms of workforce. See thousands of polish people (IIRC correctly pols is actually quite a insulting term) come to France to fix people boiler and sink. I say they should bugger of, afterall they are stealing the jobs of ours spanish immigrant ;-).

£4000 a week plumbing?

Yes please, how do i sign up?

I dont think so! These jobs are purely made up by papers to get people irate about what others (dont actually) earn.

Incidentally, if britain werent that rich compared to other countries, this situation would be reversed. It will be interesting to see the attitude of some of our EU brothers and sisters when jobs are being offered to british people in sufficient numbers to impact wages.

oups I mean month rather than week sorry 😉

anyone who is interested in free migration, I have a mate who does work for a charity that you will find interesting (those who disagree will find it even more so)

http://www.worldwrite.org.uk/

Interesting bunch of nice people but far to easy to wind up after a few drinks.

I think Dr Dolittle is largely correct. But I have the luxury of working in a regulated profession that it is difficult to break into coming from elsewhere in Europe (it is also difficult for me to move) and I therefore enjoy the luxury of cheaper plumbers and a top-notch lemon juicer.

If you have a trade from which you've always earned a decent enough wage, and you live in one of the countries of the EU where practising that trade gives you a higher standard of living than it can in other countries, you gain absolutely nothing from free movement of labour. The advantages of being able to go to work as a plumber in Poland are non-existent (unless you particularly fancy going to Poland). For the Polish plumber, the advantages of being able to go to France, Germany or the UK are enormous.

I get cheaper plumbing and don't have to compete significantly with Polish lawyers. British plumbers just get less money. The only advantage is a supposed medium term increase in everyone's wealth and opportunity. But this may be illusory, and it is entirely understandable for the casualties of it to wonder who did this to them, and why. 😐

Lardy are you a plumber?
Is £50K odd P/A reasonable? £40K?, £30K?

BD

A cracking post. This pretty much sums up the problem and why there will never be agreemant on what is right.

The strongest proponent who i talk to is the one with the most restrictive barriers to entry to his proffession and whilst he is anaimated with regard to free movement of people he gets a little more reserved when challenged on the question "what if foreign quals and bodies were recognised to do your work?"

On the cotrary the biggest supporters of limiting migration are those who have few barriers to entry. That said, if your having a foreign plumber do gas work. Make sure they are CORGI because there arent to many around.

Nope not a plumber. But work with a lot.

Question you have to ask.

Are you self employed? Corgi? Doing domestic work? if yes to these then £60k would not be unreasonable (prob more per annum). But then you are your own company and have to do all the assoc work plus find your jobs etc..

Working for someone else (paye)on domestic work? a LOT less!

Working for someone else (PAYE)on comercial (site) work? Even less.

ts the last one there where Ive found most of the non british labour. Take any trade and apply the same principal and those at the bottom will have found the amount they earn drop over recent years.

So anyone fancy answering backhanders question of how much is reasonable for your average plumber to earn?

Edit: too late!

60k is plenty of money for anyone to be earning - so people now have to work for say, 20-30k a year? The tears are literally rolling down my face.

grumm, I completely agree.
£60K is a lot of money for a plumber to earn, self employed or not.
I'd suggest that $40K is plenty for any self employed trade (gas fitter),
£30K for more traditional plumber types. I've been on site with Polish workers and have no issue with them at all. They're polite, hardworking and also have good standards although I'd not agree to say they're better or worse than Brits as that would be racism. It's the other side of immigration that I have issue with.

Grumm

Why the judgement about what is a reasonable amount of money to earn?

I have mates who own shops and earn multiples of 60k when all they do (at a basic level)is buy something and sell it on? Is this overpayed?

As well as the skill these people are being paid for enterprise and the risk of self employment.

My veiw for the record is that managed migration is good. We should invite people from all over the world to come along with the skills that WE NEED. If you dont have the relevant skills then no entry.

Why the judgement about what is a reasonable amount of money to earn?

Well the argument against immigration from people like DrDolittle seems to be that it's somehow unfair that tradesmens' wages are being suppressed by cheap foreign labour. I am suggesting that in many cases the wages may have been artifically high, and that the cheap foreign labour is simply restoring some equilibrium to the market.

I am suggesting that in many cases the wages may have been artifically high

I believe that on average, wages, as percentage of GDP, have reduced by about 25% in the last 30 years. This is one of the most important reasons for the huge growth in recent decades of credit dependency. And goes to the very heart of why Britain was so affected by the 'credit crunch'.

Credit controls were lifted 30 years ago and credit became very easily available, precisely because Britain moved into a low-wage economy. The government slogan 30 years ago was, 'we have been paying ourselves too much for doing too little'.

.

We should invite people from all over the world to come along with the skills that WE NEED.

Do you think that it is morally justifiable to poach skilled health workers from poor third world countries ?

I believe that on average, wages, as percentage of GDP, have reduced by about 25% in the last 30 years.

Any basis for that? I 'believe' that on average people are wealthier now than ever before.

We should invite people from all over the world to come along with the skills that WE NEED.

Poaching 3rd world workers is a good point, however there is an argument that the financial good that comes through money sent back via the foreign working diaspora outweighs this. However, no, I dont think its morally justifiable so I will add on "and is morally justifiable" to my comment earlier.

It's quite trickty to find a good graph of wages as a share of GDP over time. I am quite convinced that ernie is correct, as he generally is.

This [url=www.pwc.co.uk/pdf/PwC-Wage_inflation-July2005.pdf ]PWC report[/url] is fairly clear.

Ernie, should that not be the choice of the individual?
On the topic of the thread title, I dislike the mail the exact same amount that I dislike the guardian. My question is; is there an absolutely neutral newspaper? I do not want to read opinions or be told what my thoughts should be. I want to read factual news and make my own mind up. Suggestions welcome!

Try the sport?

There is no news in it and so it cant be biased either way.

Its interesting though that no paper exists (that i can think of) that doers not report without editorial bias. Probably because no one would read it. Deep down we either like to have our own veiws confirmed or be outraged and therefore have our own veiws confirmed by the papers we read.

I think the point that always gets overlooked in these threads is the reason the EU was originally set up. It was to rectify the inequities that caused World War 2 and to stop us Europeans from fighting each other. In this it has been singularly successful.

Some time people will wake up to the fact that wars are caused by inequality. The sooner we get our heads around that concept the better the world will be. The truest words spoken in respect of 9/11 were by Cherie Blair, when she said the only way we will resolve this is by understanding and addressing what it is that makes young intelligent men so desperate that they see an action like this as the only way open to them. Obviously she got panned by the Tory press for that bit of subversion!

BigDummy did you really just suggest that people aren't better off now than they were in the 50s with rationing etc? I see you've edited it now. 🙂

Any basis for that?

Yeah, it's based on factual information. I haven't got any links to provide you with, but if you research/check what wages were 30 years ago as a percentage of GDP, and compare them with what they are now, I believe that you'll find there has been a 25% decrease. IIRC the figures are 12% to 8%. Let me know if I've got it wrong though.

EDIT : the 12% to 8% suggests that it's in fact more than 25% - but I'm fairly sure that's correct.

[Shifted down as the edit is confusing]

It's quite tricky to find a good graph of wages as a share of GDP over time. I am quite convinced that ernie is correct, as he generally is.

This [url=www.pwc.co.uk/pdf/PwC-Wage_inflation-July2005.pdf ]PWC report[/url] is fairly clear. [might need to copy and paste: www.pwc.co.uk/pdf/PwC-Wage_inflation-July2005.pdf ]

Although this suggests you don't understand what ernie is talking about:

[i]better off now than they were in the 50s with rationing [/i]

"Genetically, paedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with you and me. Now that is scientific fact. There's no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact."

😉

Although this suggests you don't understand what ernie is talking about:

better off now than they were in the 50s with rationing

Please explain then, and while you're at it please explain how this means that plumbers should get paid at least 60k a year, and we shouldn't let in the immigrants?

I believe that on average, wages, as percentage of GDP, have reduced by about 25% in the last 30 years.

Any basis for that? I 'believe' that on average people are wealthier now than ever before.

It is possible for both statements to be true.

I believe that on average, wages, as percentage of GDP, have reduced by about 25% in the last 30 years. This is one of the most important reasons for the huge growth in recent decades of credit dependency. And goes to the very heart of why Britain was so affected by the 'credit crunch'.

Not sure how this is relevant anyway - my point is that some tradesmen charged high prices due to a shortage of their skills in the market. What is the relevance of wages/GDP to that?

So are we better off or worse?
Is gordon blairs "british jobs for british people" fair or correct? or should it be completely free market?

What is the relevance of wages/GDP to that?

I was just commenting on [i]your[/i] comment, quote : [i]"I am suggesting that in many cases the wages may have been artificially high"[/i] And just pointing out that Britain is a low wage economy in comparison to the recent past.

If you thought my point was irrelevant, fair enough - you could have just ignored it *shrugs shoulders*

🙂

So .... immigration policy is dictated by economics then, not racism ?

glad that's sorted out

"Auf Wiedersehen Pet" anyone ? the UK has been there before ....

I've rather got the impression that recently most people haven't got richer but instead have borrowed significantly more than was done before mostly due to remortgaging and cheap credit. Whilst not being in the same situation as BD I am in a legally protected profession although about half my office originate from outside the UK.
(Whilst I sit on my balcony overlooking Lac Leman, waiting for my bath to finish drawing and thinking about what wine to go with dinner - must go the Vuelta is on tv)