[Closed] Has anyone been on the Alpha Course?

Actually, yes. Leaving aside all the harm she did with her so-called "charity" work, she went to her grave a broken woman - said she hadn't "found christ" despite all her years of self-denial and prayer...

So Mother Theresa had it all wrong then?

According to Christopher Hitchins yes. He claims she was not a friend to the poor but a friend to poverty.
She also said the greatest threat to the world was abortion. I disagree strongly with this.

Mr Woppit

By the way, C. S. Lewis was a pompous half-wit who couldn't write for toffee.

I disagree. It might be your opinion but you state it as a fact which is not true.

Tiboy - Always great to know another Christian 🙂

Ok, I'll stop trying to be clever, and say what I mean.

There is a saying I heard: "The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for Saints".

It's understandable, when observing people like FoxyChicks neighbours (and there's plenty of them), to conclude that if Christianity is all it claims to be, then people who proclaim themselves Christians should be better people than everyone else. Without knowing the starting points of these people, you could conclude that Christanity is rubbish, and that Christians are inconsistent with their own high standards. The thing is though, attaining a certain standard of goodness is not a pre-requisite for becoming or staying a Christian. Surely, by the nature of what they promise and aspire to, churches will be full of broken and immature people, who have a long way to go emotionally, spiritually and morally?

... she (Mother Teresa)went to her grave a broken woman - said she hadn't "found christ" despite all her years of self-denial and prayer...

So she's burning in hell right now?

By the way, C. S. Lewis was a pompous half-wit who couldn't write for toffee

I disagree. It might be your opinion but you state it as a fact which is not true

I don't know if he was a pompous half-wit (he seemed OK in the film about the woman who broke her leg) but I doubt history will record him as a truly great writer, philosopher or theologian.

TMH - I reckon the Narnia Chronicals, Out of the Silent Planet trilogy and his theological books make him a great writer to a great many.

Does that have any relevance to debate? Writing well doesn't make an opinion more or less valid.

FYI, C.S. Lewis used to be an atheist, then later recanted and became a Christian. The film mentioned above is "Shadowlands", a personal favourite.

clubber - I just took exception to Mr Woppit's remark. 🙂

sfb - Shadowlands is a fav of mine too.

Ok, another one for debate

- I find it impossible to believe in the god that some people have made up for whatever purpose and written about in the bible. (I can quote the origins of the bible above as fact as that's what I believe 😉 ). I honestly have tried to see if I could believe but cannot - it all just seems so obviously made up by people.

- the bible says that man has free will

- the christian god has therefore made me in a way that means I am damned to hell right from the start (unless of course I had been brainwashed to think otherwise)

That doesn't sound like a loving god to me?

FYI, C.S. Lewis used to be an atheist, then later recanted and became a Christian.

- the christian god has therefore made me in a way that means I am damned to hell right from the start

No it was either the snake or the wife. Something about an apple.

Actually it was about Adam and Eve's disobedience and it was a fruit - it doesn't mention an apple.

You can't make someone love you so God gave us free-will so we could choose.

You're either for Him or against Him but the offers there (until you die). Truth of the matter is that God loves you.

Alpha is a good course and very non-threatening. There's no harm in just asking questions (but maybe there are some on here who are afraid of the answers).

You're either for Him or against Him

simplistic. If a god does good stuff I don't mind it but how would I ever know? I choose indifference. It seems to me unnecessarily anthropomorphic to refer to a god as 'Him', unless you're suggesting there are more than one and they have sex ?

(but maybe there are some on here who are afraid of the answers

I'm certainly unwilling to be told the 'answers' at length...

sfb - your questions would be typical of those being raised at an Alpha course - I reckon you could do worse than try it!

As for me, well to believe in a God means also believing in a Devil and I also believe in The Trinity of God - but once again, these are the questions being raised on Alpha.

tyger - Member

You're either for Him or against Him but the offers there (until you die). Truth of the matter is that God loves you.

There it is again. What is this "[i]Truth[/i]" of which people speak? Surely the truth of the matter is that some people want to believe that their god loves them and that they practice various rituals and traditions that have been developed over the years by other people in order to please the god in which they strongly believe.

The poor, unlucky inhabitants of the world who happened not to be within reach of the founders of a particular religion/existed before the founders became enlightened/died before a religion changed its rules to suit the times were/are presumably condemned to an eternity of damnation.

Or maybe it's all baseless and untrue?

As for me....I also believe in The Trinity of God

sfb - your questions would be typical of those being raised at an Alpha course - I reckon you could do worse than try it!

I wish - were I able to believe I could marry my g/f. Unfortunately it would require a lobotomy 🙁

I'm intrigued by the idea that God must be something one can see or touch in order to believe in, rather than say as a concept which exists only in the mind (for that is where concepts can only exist).

It isn't possible to see sub-atomic particles, but much of science - certainly physics - is based on their existence and behaviour. Must I deny them until I can see them with my own eye, and even if I can see them, what should I do with them?

Dwakins: intelligent man, but simplistic evangelist.

I have no faith, nor any desire or need for faith. But I do not dismiss those who do on the basis of their having faith alone. I judge others by their behaviour toward their fellow man. I might, say, follow a Mills-ian approach, and view the World in an entirely utiliarian way, or I might apply the Leviathan and the concept - look, there it is again - of the war of all against all.

I shall, irrespective of the religious beliefs of any, look at human behaviour on the basis of what it does to others before I decry the faith, atheism or agnosticism of those people. We are often little more than what we do, and so adopting the playground mindset of "prove it", either way, does not move any of this forward in the context of human relations, other than to demonstrate that unwavering belief in anything or nothing is of little use when, for example, I come to mourn the passing of a loved one or celebrate the joy of a newborn child.

So, returning to the OP's question, should he go on the Alpha Course. Naturally, but also stop by the nearest mosque, synagogue, greyhound track and pub. Tell us which helped you, in your situation, the most.

Good luck.

sfb -

I wish - were I able to believe I could marry my g/f. Unfortunately it would require a lobotomy

One of my best friends is a lecturer with and Physics degree and a Theology degree and he believes the same as me as a Christian. You don't kiss your brain away by taking a step of faith.

Ourmaninthenorth. I refer you to my argument earlier about the tangible impact that unprovable belief has on our everyday lives.

Often the argument is raised (and it has been several times within this thread) that people should be allowed to believe in whatever invisible friend gives them comfort. However it is far more complex than that and when political and economic decision are being made based on no evidence (and in this way it is unique) then religions have an obligation to prove the existence of their gods.
I would rather have the additional hospital please?

Theology degree

Hardly a respectable academic qualification is it? The hijacking of apparent scientific method to study the unfathomable and made up!

Ah but Britain's best ever pole-vaulter went the other way so I reckon it's honours even

Do you mean Jonathon Edwards? He was a triple jumper.

surfer - Do you know anyone who has done a Theology degree and do you know what's involved? Personally I would never "dis" anyone's qualification.

surfer - Do you know anyone who has done a Theology degree and do you know what's involved? Personally I would never "dis" anyone's qualification.

I do actually, although not a close friend. The area of study was vague (by definition) and they were totally focused on their study through their previous belief in god.
They produced nothing of academic worth and simply embarked on a journey of reinforcing their beliefs.
I would absolutely question the validity of any theological study and see it as a wholesale waste of time and resource.
Last I heard they were undertaking a PHD. What this can contribute to the body of "scientific" data out there is hard to fathom. I see the study of the Tooth fairy as a more valid area, at least it may have a spin off for the study of dentistry.

I am 100% sure that I don't want to go on an Alpha course, ever.

But the modern vogue for rude, shouty reductionist atheism is incredibly tedious. I wouldn't want to go on a Dawkins course either. 🙂

You don't kiss your brain away by taking a step of faith.

I would have to eliminate my sceptical intellect to achieve it.

But the modern vogue for rude, shouty reductionist atheism is incredibly tedious. I wouldn't want to go on a Dawkins course either.

Not aware their was one?
Its hard not to reduce religion to the belief in an invisible friend. When it controls resources that can be best used elsewhere and negatively impacts the lives of millions then its hard not to be a bit "shouty"
Or maybe you thing Atheists should treat religion with "respect" or deference?
Not for me thank you.

You don't kiss your brain away by taking a step of faith.

I think it was Hemingway that said "all thinking men are Atheists" whether true or not if furthers your argument not one bit.

There isn't. But if there was it would be run by and for dogmatic and tedious berks with mad eyes and ordinary, decent people wouldn't want to go. 🙂

"Do you know anyone who has done a Theology degree and do you know what's involved?"

yes and it was a joke, he even states that himself and he's a vicar, well ex vicar anyway...gave it up to be a technical author.

I work in an environment, where not only is christianity discouraged, but we now actively try to avoid employing avid christians on the grounds that their judgement is fundamentally flawed, and good intentions or not....they are more trouble than they are worth in the environment I work in. A few years back one was even been disciplined for trying to persuade one of our clients to attend the alpha course.

I'm an atheist and will stay one, and don't bother telling me to go on an alpha course cos it might open my eyes, that's on a par with telling me to believe that the earth is flat or the moon is made of cheese and there's a course I could go on which will explain it all to me, just plain stupid.

So, in answer to the original op's question. no I haven't and I wont be doing either.

There isn't. But if there was it would be run by and for dogmatic and tedious berks with mad eyes and ordinary, decent people wouldn't want to go.

Sounds like there would be little room for us Atheists then given it would be filled with religious zealots and their apologists pretending to be "objective" !
You know the type.

I'm not sure how [u]not[/u] being an adherant of religion automatically makes a person a "disciple" of the non-deity-worshipping Richard Dawkins.

Non-belief was around before he wrote a book, although he possibly voiced what a lot of people thought, but didn't know how to articulate.

Not having blind faith is not the same as denouncing a god. Given evidence and rational explanation (which is not something associated with religion), many people would be prepared to change their views in response to the evidence.

jahwomble - sounds like a nice place where you work!

surfer - I can tell you're very proud of your qualifications. 🙂

In case anyone missed it, [b]jahwomble[/b] is a ghostbuster...

surfer - I can tell you're very proud of your qualifications.

Not really but they are "robust"

Ah thanks sfb!

more of a ghostburster really 🙂

"t helps me cope day to day with caring for my severly handicapped son, it gives me reasoning, solice and comfort. "

Perhaps your son would be better off being cared for by professionals? You wouldn't need your jesus crutch then. I'm sure it's very comforting but as I said before - being comforting doesn't make it true. You have to prove the case, and that has not yet been done.

Jeusu loves you, everyone else thinks your a **** MrWhoppit!
'pwned'
Chapter 2 vs 6 the Gospel according to LoulaBella

everyone else thinks your a **** MrWhoppit!

I don't. It's as well not to claim what to know what 'everyone' thinks, when many of us are not even self-consistent in thinking.

<wake up mode>
"ghostburster"
Now that is interesting - can i borrow your Tesla coil please?

I work in an environment, where not only is christianity discouraged, but we now actively try to avoid employing avid christians on the grounds that their judgement is fundamentally flawed, and good intentions or not....they are more trouble than they are worth in the environment I work in.

Unless you work in a mosque, isn't it illegal to disciminate on religious grounds?

yup, you'll need a big boot though..........

isn't it illegal to disciminate on religious grounds?

I wasn't aware there were any laws on religious discrimination - and why would they be suspended in a religious institution ?

Do you mean Jonathon Edwards? He was a triple jumper.

Ah yes. I know he's a triple-jumper. I had an image in my head of him triple-jumping while my hands typed 'pole vaulter'. Maybe there are forces beyond our comprehension at play?

isn't it illegal to disciminate on religious grounds

Other than where it is enshrined in law, I thought that too. Having said that if your religious beliefs make it impossible to do the job, e.g. a jewish/muslim pig farmer, then it would be a difficult one to prove.

"t helps me cope day to day with caring for my severly handicapped son, it gives me reasoning, solice and comfort. "

Perhaps your son would be better off being cared for by professionals? You wouldn't need your jesus crutch then. I'm sure it's very comforting but as I said before - being comforting doesn't make it true. You have to prove the case, and that has not yet been done.

Ummm sorry just felt a little angry at your remark.
Yes some days im barely able to cope, others and in fact always Joel is an amazing gift from God (expecting a few remarks on that one :).

Before I had Joel I had no concept of what 'Love' (agape, might have to google agape)) is. Through Joel I have come to a deeper level of understanding of what love and patience is that I might have otherwise never experienced in my whole life. Another thing that I have realised about life (whilst were getting all deep and spiritual) is that sometimes out of the shi**est situations you can make/enjoy something truely beautiful.
I do get 'help' next year we will get our first overnight respite and I get help on Saturdays from a sessional worker, Joel is also in a special school which is amazing.
I would never just 'hand him over' to social care (although some people do because sometimes it is too much), but if my 'faith'in Gods love means that Joel can stay togehter as a family, that it helps my marriage stay strong (I should point out that about 80% of marriages with a child like Joel in the mix end in divorce)that can the way God sustains me be a bad thing?
I also would have never tried MTB if it wasnt for being a Christian, but thats another story 🙂

"Unless you work in a mosque, isn't it illegal to disciminate on religious grounds? "

No actually, there are plenty of places where it's not illegal.I work in a place founded on atheist and humanist principles. anti-theism is in our charter and everything.It's really no different than a Christian faith based organization having a policy of not employing satanists to talk to their clients.

[img] [/img]
here is Joel at the Big Bike Bash, he went on a boat for the first time, it was amazing! I have to point out again that everyone at the event was superb with Joel and there was lots 'love'in the air. You dont have to be a Christian or in a church to experience love/care and friendship for one another and I realise this.
Bikes bring people together too!
I like being a Chrictian and my church rocks
[url= http://www.portsmouthfamilychurch.org/ ]family church[/url]

No actually, there are plenty of places where it's not illegal.I work in a place founded on atheist and humanist principles. anti-theism is in our charter and everything.It's really no different than a Christian faith based organization having a policy of not employing satanists to talk to their clients.

My Mosque example wasn't meant to be taken literally 😉

Where you works, it sounds reasonable to 'discriminate' on religious grounds. However, at a guess, most workplaces are probably not founded on atheist and humanist principles with anti-theism is in their charter.

I'm an atheist, but occasionally - usually whilst riding lush singletrack at dusk - I'll admit to being something of a pantheist...

And in those moments, I take [url= http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Poetry/WordsworthTinternAbbey.htm ]this[/url] as my scripture.

"Where you works, it sounds reasonable to 'discriminate' on religious grounds. However, at a guess, most workplaces are probably not founded on atheist and humanist principles with anti-theism is in their charter. "

you can get an exemption, but it's quite hard work, but any organization can in theory do it, but you need to prove a definite need to

from the European equality and human rights commission.....

"Where there is a Genuine Occupational Requirement (GOR) to employ a person of a particular race, ethnic or national origin, certain exceptions from the regulations are permitted covering selection, promotion and training, but the employer must be able to show that there is a genuine need taking account of the type of work, or the context in which the work is carried out.

Essentially, the same principles apply to religious discrimination, but in limited circumstances, exemptions from the Regulations may apply where an employer needs to employ a person of a particular religion. There is also an exemption for 'employers with an ethos based on a religion or belief'. This allows employers to place advertisements for jobs requiring a person to be of specific religion as long as it can be justified, which is difficult. The religious requirement must be crucial to the post. Exemptions also apply for acts done in the interest of national security. "

There's also some stuff about similiar philosophical ethos and discrimination

but I can't find it right now.....:)

"Jeusu loves you, everyone else thinks your a **** MrWhoppit!
'pwned'
Chapter 2 vs 6 the Gospel according to LoulaBella "

Hmmm. Doesn't look much like a state of grace to me, but thanks for the insult.

An American comedian (I forget the name) once poked sharp metaphorical sticks at Xtians as part of his standup.

He related that after one of his shows, he was accosted by some Xtians in the carpark who said: "Hey Buddy! We don't like what you said about jesus". To which the comedian replied:

"Well, forgive me, then..."

Bearing in mind what I said about Leprechaunology, still no evidence, by the way.

This allows employers to place advertisements for jobs requiring a person to be of specific religion as long as it can be justified, which is difficult. The religious requirement must be crucial to the post. Exemptions also apply for acts done in the interest of national security.

Presumably, this is why Christian schools often state that being a Christian is not a job requirement, but supporting the Christian-based ethos of the school is.

Not quite work safe 😉
[img] [/img]

Mr Wopitt, Bill Hicks.

Dawkins may be a thorough aetheist, sure of his reasoning, and able to pick apart religious beliefs in a 1000 ways....but **** me he's a tedious man.

It quite interesting how many religious people try to group atheists into a sort of 'anti-religion', with Richard Dawkins as some sort of 'prophet'.

Is the concept of rational, individual thinking so lost to those that have fallen for the hoodoo of religion that that can't see fellow humans beings as anything other than another group of people rather than the individual, free-thinking people that they are?

I have read Dawkins but I find him throughly dislike-able. His approach is as preachy and evangelical as any outspoken religious person and therefore I pay it little heed.

To be honest though I wouldn't consider myself atheist. I don't bear it much thought in day to day life as my family and friends are what is important, not whether or not some sky fairy is watching over me or not. I would probably describe myself an apathetic agnostic as the concept of religion existing or not matters very little to me now days.

My view on does/does not god exist - Don't know, don't care.

yup, I could be wrong here, but I think some Catholic schools still insist on the Catholic teaching certificate as well, which is fair enough in context....

From our point of view, in an organization which actively promotes atheism and humanism, we'd have to seriously wonder why a committed Christian would want to work for us.:)

It quite interesting how many religious people try to group atheists into a sort of 'anti-religion', with Richard Dawkins as some sort of 'prophet'.

Is the concept of rational, individual thinking so lost to those that have fallen for the hoodoo of religion that that can't see fellow humans beings as anything other than another group of people rather than the individual, free-thinking people that they are?

One could say much the same thing about many coments made on here about religious people.

Don't know, don't care.

nicely succinct 🙂 One might describe a 'relationship' with another entity based on their being completely unresponsive to be dysfunctional - far better to concentrate on real world relationships and interactions - which is actually encouraged by most religions too.

From our point of view, in an organization which actively promotes atheism and humanism, we'd have to seriously wonder why a committed Christian would want to work for us.:)

They might be an [url= http://www.google.com/search?q=atheist+quaker ]Atheist Quaker[/url] or an [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism ]Atheist Christian[/url] 🙂

One could say much the same thing about many coments made on here about religious people.

Except the concept of religion is not rational and therefore those that believe in religion are unrational.

Actually it was about Adam and Eve's disobedience and it was a fruit - it doesn't mention an apple.
You can't make someone love you so God gave us free-will so we could choose.

SFB
I wish - were I able to believe I could marry my g/f. Unfortunately it would require a lobotomy

Interestingy point on religious discrimination. Someone of any faith can demand that their child goes to a school of the same faith (paid by the state)- who will also transport the child there at the cost of the state. An atheist must just send their child to the nearest school even if it is a faith one. This is being challenged at European level. so atheists can be discriminated against as it is not a religion.

Jeusu loves you, everyone else thinks your a **** MrWhoppit!
'pwned'
Chapter 2 vs 6 the Gospel according to LoulaBella "

Hmmm. Doesn't look much like a state of grace to me, but thanks for the insult.

Except the concept of religion is not rational and therefore those that believe in religion are unrational.

I wasn't refering to just the irrational part of the text I quoted.

True. Dawkins and his type are great at trying to destroy things, but what does ever offer to go in religion's place? What can he teach me about compassion, charity, kindness?

In my opinion none of this debate, not only here but in the wider cultural sense, would not be taking place without the publication of "The God Delusion". It is, again just my opinion, arguably the most significant single book of the early 21st century not only in it's writing style which is humourus, clear-sighted and informative by turns - but at least in the effect it has had in energising the debate worldwide.

Richard is often accused as being "preachy" or "strident" and so forth. These are interesting accusations when you consider that they are based on the written word, when there normal usage is to describe oral style?

Whenever I have seen him on his TV programmes (last night is a fine example) or his Youtube appearances, the only time I have seen him move from his normal stance of reasoned and polite debate is when he has to respond to some idiot asking him half-baked questions such as: "What if you're wrong?" whilst ignoring everything he's been speaking about for the previous 20 minutes.

The criticisms say more about the critics, I feel.

C S Lewis was a barely-functioning minnow, by comparison.

True. Dawkins and his type are great at trying to destroy things, but what does ever offer to go in religion's place?

Why do you need something to fill religions 'place'?

Are you saying that without religion my life is missing something? Kind of arrogant that.

What can he teach me about compassion, charity, kindness?

Are religions/the religious solely the source of compassion, charity and kindness?

True. Dawkins and his type are great at trying to destroy things, but what does ever offer to go in religion's place? What can he teach me about compassion, charity, kindness?

Suprised it took so long to get to this.
Not aware Dawkins tries to destroy anyhting, he only argues against irrational beliefs. and as the quote goes "if you dont want your beliefs laughed at then dont have such funny beliefs!"
The attributes you refer to to are not the property of religion and for every religiously motivated individual committing a kind act I am sure there is an atheist doing the same. The difference being the atheist does it from a sense of humanity and not for reward!
I know whos motivation I respect more.

"They might be an Atheist Quaker or an Atheist Christian "

they might well be, but the beliefs and ethos of both gel quite well with our ethos, so we may well let them play:)

anyway I'm off to work to proselytize my day away 🙂

[i]What can he teach me about compassion, charity, kindness?[/i]
You need teaching about them?

Junkyard:
"I am fairly sure you started the insulting thread by suggesting her child needed paliative (for dying people FFS) care. Insensitive and crass in the extreme. It is the only point with which I agree with her you are being a c0ck."

Thankyou.

You will note that 1: My subsequent response to the original critiques was to expand my (arguably, badly-put) point with an expanded explanation, followed by a correction from a helpful "threadee" with regard to the word "palliative". "Respite" being more appropriate and indeed, what I was actually getting at.

It is interesting that Loulabella subsequently went on to say that she has already taken these steps for herself so in essence, seems to agree with me.

Have a nice day.

You need teaching about them?

Ian you are right. Mine are instilled by my parents and the non religious environment I was brought up in.
I treat others as i would like to be treated, the Golden rule which was hijacked but actually predates Jesus!
I think its called being a "paid up member of the human race"

Dawkins and his type are great at trying to destroy things

why do we have to resort to demagogues or prophets - can't we work it out for ourselves ? Whatever Dawkins may or may not say (and I can't say I've ever listened to him) only describes his ideas, not necessarily any other non believers'

In my opinion none of this debate, not only here but in the wider cultural sense, would not be taking place without the publication of "The God Delusion"

I find this far fetched. I don't need anyone else to tell me how to think

In my opinion none of this debate, not only here but in the wider cultural sense, would not be taking place without the publication of "The God Delusion".

Disagree.

I've never read Dawkins and have been a (part-time) evangelical atheist (or anti-christian) [b]long[/b] before its publication.

I get drawn into the debate simply because many christians feel an obligation to proselytise. I thought the 'decade of evengelism' came to an end in y2000. Some of them don't know that. Personally I'd recommend a decade of quiet introspection for the christian church starting tomorrow.

I treat others as i would like to be treated

this is flawed, as not everyone wants the same things you want. Ideally one might treat people as they want to be treated - but that isn't necessarily easy to determine or might conflict with one's own preferences

I think its called being a "paid up member of the human race"

which before the privatisation/capitalisation of thought would have been free

I've come >< this close to running up and ticking the No box on the poster outside the church here, just to make me chuckle when I walk past it.

" In my opinion none of this debate, not only here but in the wider cultural sense, would not be taking place without the publication of "The God Delusion"

I find this far fetched. I don't need anyone else to tell me how to think "

Indeed you don't. Of course the debate existed before the book, but I would contend that the book's publication kicked it to a whole new level. I honestly don't remember this level of, media presence on the argument previously. I doubt Chris Hitchens, Sam Harris et al would now be so widely read where it not for "The God Delusion" being such a huge seller...

coffeeking - Member

I've come >< this close to running up and ticking the No box on the poster outside the church here, just to make me chuckle when I walk past it.

Me too. There's a massive advertising hoarding one near our house that went up a couple of weeks back. Had I a tin of black emulsion in the boot of the car when I first saw it I'd have done it. On reflection I'm too soft to do it, as one of the local PCSOs might have seen me setting up my ladders 🙂

Interestingly those bars on the Alpha course website opinion poll never seem to change [b]-and why is there no "probably not" option at the Alpha course?[/b]

Mr Woppit it may have been an awakening for you but you shouldn't assume the same for others.
Atheist discussion has a proud and long history, albeit not made up of bestsellers.