[Closed] Has anyone been on the Alpha Course?

I rest my case. Gotta go. 'bye!

he's got experiments to conduct.. 8)

I really like the forum, but the God-bashing that goes on here is surprisingly ignorant.

To be honest I feel an obligation to present an anti-religious, anti-faith (anti-christ, if you like) viewpoint from time to time. Simply because some, not all, of the religious feel an obligation to put their side across. It's all about balance.

As long as there are organisations, like the christian church, who (1)peddle a view that is (in my opinion) nonsense and (2) feel a need to bring everyone else round to that view, I will do my bit in countering it.

It's the evangelism that I object to, not the believing in nonsense. I have no issue with judaism for example. I think they're wrong but they don't want to convert the world so let them get on with it.

And let's be clear about Alpha. It is not a service to society provided by the church to allow us to think [u]neutrally[/u] about the big issues. It is an evangelical tool. If it didn't have a positive conversion rate it would have been dropped long ago. It's no better that a scientologists 'personality test' or time-share sales (in the hereafter).

STW is not anti - religion it is just anti spouting nonesense again persuade us of your case we could be convinced with evidence if you could produce it.
Granted we are not exactly at the cutting edge of philosophical debate but I am happy to discuss St Thomas Aquinas or David Hume if required.

ps as your book of truiths defines faith/your belief as

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

I think it's ignorance of other peoples beliefs..

I feel slightly exasperated, it is kinda en-vogue to be an atheist.

But in my opinion it is a easy option and pretty lazy in post-modern society. Were as religion was for the masses before popular science had evolved to become part of popular culture.

[url=

It's the agnostics who are lazy in my opinion. I'm a pretty active and committed atheist. Depending on how you phrase it, it's a pretty big question (Where did we come from? What is life? etc) and it deserves serious consideration.

The agnostic "I don't really know" (a la Mavis Riley) is a bit weak. Maybe we should prod them with pointy sticks 'til they join one camp or the other.

I suppose deep down my concern is that, until someone comes up with an atheist Alpha course, the undecided/unthinking will only ever be pulled one way.

As Bart Simpson asked...

Will cavemen go to hell?

STW is not anti - religion it is just anti spouting nonesense.

Unless you happen to believe that 'religion' = 'spouting nonsense'.

As Bart Simpson asked...

Will cavemen go to hell?

And spend eternity discovering fire?

I'm glad we're all agreed that faith and religion is bunkum, and that gullible people will believe anything put in front of them that seems to denote order where there is chaos, and this is a useful way of controlling the sheeple through fear...

[img] [/img]

I'm with loulaBella...

Interesting how all these threads so quickly degrade into personal insults/childish playground put-downs... from people who spend above average time in the wonder of creation too

Or maybe the problem is you're all riding in trail centres 🙄

[img] [/img]

And spend eternity discovering fire?

from people who spend above average time in the wonder of creation too

exactly, is this wonderful planet with all the amazing forms of life on it, the beautiful skies and mountains spinning through a huge and spectacular universe not enough for you? Can't you take it at face value and just enjoy it with out demanding a "why" all the time like a toddler smacked up on Sunny-D and demanding reasurnace that you are some how "special".

And to respond to [b]erbii[/b], yes I am special and I do make a difference. I know this and the people who matter to me know this. Outside of that I really could not care and don't expect the universe to care or give me special treatment either.

SSP

@Singlespeedpunk but in your own words your experience was 'amazing'.
Isn't God amazing?

Gotta make you think doesn't it?

So all amazing things that can't currently be explained are due to god?

Pretty sure that was how things like the thunder gods and so on were thought up....

Hmmm evidence...well regarding the New testament as a historical document: If you compare the number of manuscripts available to study, from (just to stay on track an Alpha reference) there are about 5000 Greek, 10000plus Latin and over 9000 other manuscripts apparently available to verify it. This compares to 20 on Livy's Roman History and 10 on Caesar's Gallic war - do you question them? It is far and away the most verifiable ancient document there is.
Now - what is in it...another matter. Maybe best summed up by C.S Lewis in Mere Christianity:
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that
people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral
teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we
must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus
said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a
level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the
Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the
Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a
fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His
feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising
nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to
us. He did not intend to."
Again I say - everyone should make up their own mind. It is obvious that some already have!

What always makes me chuckle (as a Christian) is the "science PROVES God doesn't exist" line taken by a lot of people....does it really?...in what way exactly does it PROVE it?...to quote our own Mr Woppit "all you have to do is show me the evidence".....

The agnostic "I don't really know" (a la Mavis Riley) is a bit weak. Maybe we should prod them with pointy sticks 'til they join one camp or the other.

There is no evidence of a 'god', nor is there evidence of there not being a 'god'. As it happens I'd be surprised if there was a 'god'.

I'm open-minded enough not to believe what I was told at Sunday School as a child. I do not believe a word of the organised religions(all of them claim to be one-true-way to heaven which must be wrong for a start...).

[b]Does rejecting all religion make me an atheist[/b] or [b]does the fact that I don't worship a god because I see no reason to make me an agnostic?[/b]

What always makes me chuckle (as a Christian) is the "science PROVES God doesn't exist" line taken by a lot of people....does it really?

A religious person says "god exists"

A non-religious person says "how so? What is the evidence?"

The religious person says "er, because I want to believe it" (Which, as a non-christian, makes [b]me[/b] chuckle)

The non-religious person says "Hmm, I'm not convinced..."

What always makes me chuckle (as a Christian) is the "science PROVES God doesn't exist" line taken by a lot of people....does it really?...in what way exactly does it PROVE it?...to quote our own Mr Woppit "all you have to do is show me the evidence".....

I am happy your ignorance makes you chuckle

You cannot prove a negative 🙄

This is exactly why I said the best thing to do with Religion is ridicule it.

Pointless to try and have a reasoned argument.

I sincerely hope that one day if enough of us laugh hard enough they will go away and maybe think about why we are laughing.

sorry bizarrely double posted with a temporal difference
Computer Gremlins or the hand of God ...hard to tell

erbii, why doe it take the exsistance of god to make something amazing? Would amazing stuff be mundane with out a god there? Can't you enjoy this world and your life with out having to "thank" some one for it?

Please re-read what I wrote in the post above before replying again.

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus
said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a
level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the
Devil of Hell. You must make your choice.

Well mental illness would explain it, but please refer back to my first post in this thread that good people will always do good things and evil people will do evil things. But to get good people to do evil that takes religion.

SSP

errrrr.....
agree to disagree, Im off to the New Theatre Royal now where my 'Christian church' are raising money tonight for a local hospice, us Christians are awful you know!

What always makes me chuckle (as a Christian) is the "science PROVES God doesn't exist" line taken by a lot of people....

Anyone who tells you that is as deluded as the people that tell you that a daffodil/sunset/hope/laughter/etc PROVES there is a god.

My atheism is a belief. It's not that I don't believe in god; I believe there is no god. But it's incredibly difficult to prove a negative.

Where science and god have a problem is with people who take the bible too literally e.g. universe created in 6 days, water into wine, people rising from the dead etc.

errrrr.....
agree to disagree, Im off to the New Theatre Royal now where my 'Christian church' are raising money tonight for a local hospice, us Christians are awful you know!

Good for you however lots of others are also doing selfless deeds without the promise of everlasting reward!

Well done loulaBella, what do you want a lolly?

No, eternal salvation and to avoid hell. I thought we'd done that one 😛

@SSP ur the one that had the experience man! What makes u so sure it wasn't
a blessing sent from god, he could have chosen u to be his messenger..

erbii, ok I am the son of god, worship me by sending dontations so I can buy new bike stuff. Oh and have Sundays off for biking and cake.

Off to do some smiting now...

His Holiness SSP - the incarnation of the flying spaghetti Monster*

*ladies will be touched by my noodly appendage.

Think something needs to be clarified, being a Christian isn't all about doing 'good things' to make sure you get to heaven, it's about knowing God and His love. Plus He knew none of us would make it to heaven on that premise anyway, and being as He loves us more that we can imagine, He offers us eternal life at no cost to us, all we have to do is believe in Him and accept His gift. In the knowledge of this gift who wouldn't want to 'good things'?

(For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2 v8-9)

all we have to do is believe in Him and accept His gift.

so why the need for church? The above sounds like something any person who believes in god can do for themselves without any need for someone to tell them how to do it - eg all the dogma which, let's face it is just people dressing up in silly outfits and saying mumbo jumbo.

"Being a Christian isn't all about doing 'good things' to make sure you get to heaven, it's about knowing God and His love"

My goodness is that the time I really must go over there now, goodnight..

I think Zerodown said it best in their hymn "Empty Promised Land"

[i]Because ego won't permit belief in our mortality;
so we manufactured our delusioned lie;
We believe with much conviction in our useless superstition
that our lives are bigger than life.[/i]

Why does "he" want us to believe in him? If he cared that much about our belief he could just stick his head round the door and say hi, then he'd get my attention. Would make everything much simpler. Besides he did it lot's in the old testament, why not now?

he did it lot's in the old testament, why not now?

"Gott ist tod"

Or at least irrelivant...

Pretty sure that was how things like the thunder gods and so on were thought up

I thought thunder and lightening was Santa making Christmas presents?

There's something we need to tell you about Santa.

How come all the 'atheists' on here are so horrible and full of snide sarcastic putdowns about Christians?
You dont see me writing derogatroy comments about you and your beliefs. I'm not trying to convert any of you, if your happy then fair play, live and let live and all that jazz.
Yes my faith is a crutch, and whats wrong with that?
It helps me cope day to day with caring for my severly handicapped son, it gives me reasoning, solice and comfort. After approaching my doctor about 'not being able to cope' with my son (I should point out he is doubly incontinent, has no communication skills, most days smears s*** around the house, screams for extended periods of time, bites/scratches himself and others...... the list goes on) there is no cure, no medecine that can change his/our situation. I was taking anti deppressants for a long time and having CBT and it just wasnt working because at the end of the day Joel is still there and he doesnt change.
My faith gives me strength to carry on, I sing hymns to myself as I scrub shite off his bed at 3am and it stops me from crying and giving up. I dont really find Richard Dawkins that comforting in these times of stress unless I had a life size model of him to beat up when the rage gets too much 🙂 only kidding
It works for me and I love Jesus
[img] http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HPoM4jgXtKE/RncsjxNkvII/AAAAAAAAAEU/eycRn6UdXgA/s400/jesus%2Bdino.jp g" target="_blank">http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HPoM4jgXtKE/RncsjxNkvII/AAAAAAAAAEU/eycRn6UdXgA/s400/jesus%2Bdino.jp g"/> [/img]

& we luv u LoulaBella 🙂

Fair enough , if it's what you want to believe and it makes you feel better.... I can't say I can see [u]any reason[/u] to believe in any of it though.

What those of a any religious persuasion have to realise is that having 'blind faith' is not inherently superior to not having 'blind faith' and that other people should not be forced to 'respect'/accommodate other people's unfounded beliefs and dogma-led demands. Just because someone in the distant past (when many things that are now understood were thought to be miracles or works of supernatural beings) wrote down a story that had been passed by word-of-mouth over generations, it doesn't make it true.

Don't forget, religion is very influential. Remember, we live in a state with an established church to which the vast majority of the population does not actively belong or believe in, if they spend any time thinking about it.

How come all the 'atheists' on here are so horrible and full of snide sarcastic putdowns about Christians?
You dont see me writing derogatroy comments about you and your beliefs. I'm not trying to convert any of you, if your happy then fair play, live and let live and all that jazz.

As much as you would have us believe that its not really true is it?
Millions die in Sub Saharan Africa due to the Churches approach to condom use leading to the spread of Aids. The church even forbids condom use amongst married couples.
The Church has tried to ban stem cell research which is one of the most promising areas of scientific research because of their religious views. This has fortunately been overturned by the new administration in the US however years have been lost.
In the UK the belief in invisible friends allows the church tax free status which indirectly reroutes much needed funds away from schools and hospitals.
So this "cant we all just be nice" attitude makes by blood boil and is disingenuous and I suspect you know it
You also dont have a monopoly on ethical behaviour so dont (as many of your type do) try the claim you invented it and without god we would all rape and kill each other or that society would go into meltdown. Many other secular countries do OK and IIRC it seems to be your "good" books that preach infanticide, rape and genocide in large portions!

[img] [/img]

[i]He offers us eternal life at no cost to us, all we have to do is believe in Him and accept His gift.[/i]

You'll have to make this clear to me, sorry. Do I have to have belief to get into Heaven, what if no-one has told me about him, do I still get in? What if I'm the nicest, most generous person on the planet but still don't believe in god, do I get in then? I wouldn't want to go to hell, I just want to make sure I'm doing enough. What if I just don't believe and no amount of doctrine will make me believe, am I bad? Am I going to burn?

I'm pretty sure it's statements like that which get atheists backs right up and generate all this abuse, you might want to rephrase things, just trying to help.

[i]In the knowledge of this gift who wouldn't want to 'good things'?[/i]

I'd be very worried about someone who only started doing good things after they discovered god. You're either a good person or you're not, god can see inside you and tell you know, he's all powerful. You're not going to pull the wool over his eyes by doing good things.

He offers us eternal life at no cost to us,

isn't that very evil ? Eternal ?? How soulcrushingly boring would that be - and no escape ?

I feel slightly exasperated, it is kinda en-vogue to be an atheist.

But in my opinion it is a easy option and pretty lazy in post-modern society.

I'm struggling to understand what that means. Does post-modern mean we already know everything ?

It's the agnostics who are lazy in my opinion. I'm a pretty active and committed atheist.

I used to think I was an atheist, but then I realised that was too didactic and in fact I don't care how many gods there are. I'm too lazy to bother trying to interact with or take notice of beings too inaccessible to converse with

Lou belle your book is less than flattering or inclusive about what will happen to those of us who do not follow it be we just simple non believers or God forbid( pun intended) Gay.

This is what happens to those that have not followed god which you do by following Jesus

In John 14:6 Jesus saith, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I am NOT damming you to anything.

PS it also asks you to do be nice to us in your book

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. Peter 3:15

How come all the 'atheists' on here are so horrible and full of snide sarcastic putdowns about Christians?

I'm in love with a Christian...
I'm not sure horridness correlates with religion either way

I'd be very worried about someone who only started doing good things after they discovered god

I'm not sure about this. I'd be happy they were nicer and not care why. After all, it's not the thought (which is always open to speculation) that counts but what you actually [b]do[/b]

When a bad thing or situation occurs I often hear the faithful ask god to give them the strength to carry on but few people curse god for putting them in the shit in the first place.

I appreciate that faith gives some strength but that doesn't stop it being untrue.

I reckon God would be the first to dismiss religions as, at best, well meaning but ultimately misguided attempts by groups of humans to ensure their interpretations of God's word are followed on earth, and at worst sets of rules invented by humans to control other humans.

Either way, religions were invented by humans, for humans, and as such they are as flawed, fragmented, inconsistent and corrupt as any other human invented system.

few people curse god for putting them in the shit in the first place

Oh yes they do. Don't know about other Religions, but Suffereing is one of the biggest issues that christians struggle with.

Even Jesus himself apparently had a bit of a wobble towards the end: "My God, my God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?"

Samuri, thanks for the advice, however the simple truth is that He (God) gave his only Son so that we might be saved, that is the gift he offers us, eternal life, spent in heaven with Him. Simonfbarnes, sorry if that's boring to you, but I can understand that if you don't believe in God and how amazing He is, then it would seem boring!? The subject of people who have never heard about God and Jesus is a very tricky one, and one which I can't give a definitive answer to, sorry. Best suggestion is to go on an alpha course and ask!
With respect to "who wouldn't want to do good things", what I was trying to explain is that when you believe in God you try harder to do good things and act in a way that reflects your faith. This doesn't mean people don't do good things before, people with no faith at all do amazing things for other people in this world.
Sorry if I've got athiests back's up, not my intention at all, just trying to explain that being a Christian is in no way at all dependent on what you do, it is wholly dependent on making a decision to believe in God and his son Jesus, and that Jesus died to save you.

And clubber, no you don't have to go to church to be a christian, you can be a christian and never step foot in a church. However it is strongly advised in the bible to spend time with other Christians as you can encourage each other this way, and teach each other.

but I can understand that if you don't believe in God and how amazing He is

I said I'm happy to believe in any number of gods, though I've now realised I have to restrict that to zero or positive integers (including infinity) only as a negative number of gods doesn't have any obvious meaning, and neither do fractions, and if one is to believe in something one had to be able to understand what it means. However my belief is irrelevant to my way of life until such time as a god makes itself known to me in a non delusional fashion. Their current status ranks with childrens' invisible friends.

Even if one or more of the gods are very amazing that doesn't constitute a credible basis for prolonged existence for me as I like to do stuff on my own account.

sorry if that's boring to you

even quite a short time contemplating wonderfulness in an environment of zero challenge or passion sounds very boring to me, and the added kicker of no escape makes the concepts of heaven or hell indistinguishable 🙁

Hi. I'm back. I'd just like to say that since my last post, this thread has resulted in just what I was talking about before. Xtians on this forum trying to justify their belief in an imaginary friend by quoting from their book of nonsense, as if they really think that is going to change the atheists minds.

If you cannot summon up a useful counter-argument, quoting scripture is not going to do it. We've already told you we think your book is nonsense.

What part of "missing the point" is it that you don't understand.

"t helps me cope day to day with caring for my severly handicapped son, it gives me reasoning, solice and comfort. "

Perhaps your son would be better off being cared for by professionals? You wouldn't need your jesus crutch then. I'm sure it's very comforting but as I said before - being comforting doesn't make it true. You have to prove the case, and that has not yet been done.

Finally, I'm getting off this merry-go-round, consider it evidence that the last bastion of the religious, in the face of reasoning intelligence, is a retreat into dogma.

By the way, C. S. Lewis was a pompous half-wit who couldn't write for toffee.

So ya boo sucks. ;o)

;o)

I don't think it's kind to call the religious types "sad and sorry goddists" - obviously their beliefs fill some need just as scepticism suits others. At root all beliefs are internal, arbitrary constructs, and for that matter you cannot tell what someone else believes as they may not be truthful about it.

I'm a bit late to this, just back from the pub. Could anyone give me a precis? Have we established which gods exist yet and which one's are the loving ones and which ones are the petty vindictive ones, and which one's have got the power. Has the book of Dave been revealed as the true source yet?

Perhaps your son would be better off being cared for by professionals? You wouldn't need your jesus crutch then.

Well. I do like being a prick on this forum, but it seems I'm an amateur.

I completely agree, that is one of the most unpleasant things I've seen posted in a forum.

it is wholly dependent on making a decision to believe in God and his son Jesus, and that Jesus died to save you.

Unles sof course you are able to give me proof that
1. Jesus existed.
2. God esists
3. Jesus was the son of God.
3. Jesus died to save me.

We know you cannot prove this and so do you.
Therefore in the absence of any supporting evidence I choose to beleive that God, fairies, ghosts and Santa does not exist.

Persuade me with eveidence not superstition.

I read your post Johnnie, but to my mind it doesn't matter if Jesus existed or was god or whatever. Gods can do god stuff and humans can do human stuff without obligating each other

Have we done the bit about science not being able to truely measure objective reality due to the effect of the intention of the observer, and scientists saying allow us just one miracle (something from nothing, i.e. big bang) and we'll explain the rest? 😀

Have we done the bit about science not being able to truely measure objective reality

that's a speculative construct too as we only have us to think about it, and we're all subjective

Unfortunately the uncertainty principle and Shrodingers cat is just to much for us all.

The fact there are gaps in the knowledge of science does not make it wrong. Assume God exists and we just say so who/what made God.So something somewhere came from nothing us or God and we at least know we exist.

Gods can do god stuff and humans can do human stuff without obligating each other

[img] [/img]

"Well. I do like being a prick on this forum, but it seems I'm an amateur. "

Oh dear, that didn't come across too well, did it? Perhaps I should have been fluffier, given the difficult situation...

All I was suggesting was that, as professional palliative care is available to at least allow home carers time off to relax and recuperate, it might be a good idea to employ such.

Then the need for a religious crutch (as defined by the respondent herself) wouldn't be necessary. Or is that a bad idea?

Please don't hurt me, I'm only little.

;o)

professional palliative care

It's not terminal, you know!

No, but it sounds like loula is barely coping to me...

Tiboy - Member

...the simple truth is that He (God)gave his only Son so that we might be saved, that is the gift he offers us, eternal life, spent in heaven with Him

At the age of 14 I found that vey hard to believe and now, in my 30s, I don't find it any easier.

Please explain to me where the knowledge of this "[i]simple truth[/i]" comes from. I'm genuinely intrigued as you obviously know something that nobody else does.

Perhaps I should have been clearer just then; palliative care is for people dying at home, usually but not exclusively of cancer. Perhaps you should have a trawl back though her posts to find out what's up with her lad (no he isn't dying) and how she gets on with it. [edit: perhaps the word you meant was 'respite'.]

Though her religious/faith persuasions are news to me...

Loulabella, I can understand why you may be sensitive to criticism of Christianity or religion in general, look back and you'll see that most people who don't agree with your beliefs haven't been nasty and similarly don't expect that because of your own circumstances ( which are pretty well known here and with which I do sympathise ) you won't get picked up on comments that don't really stand up in the context of the discussion ( though I'll admit that I held off becuase it did seem harsh on you specifically).

Well, I've now read all of this thread in absolute dis-belief!! 8)

There's a family of so called "Christians" across the road from me and a nastier, snobbier, bitchier, judgemental group of people you would really struggle to find.
It would seem that their "christianity" only extends to white, middle-class, nicely-spoken like-minded types...

Sounds to me like ripe wind-up material.... Spray-can a pentagram on their front door after they've gone to bed.

Did I say that? I didn't say that.

whereas Jesus used to hang out with beggars, prostitutes (allegedly) and lepers, and insisted on turning the other cheek...

There's a family of so called "Christians" across the road from me and a nastier, snobbier, bitchier, judgemental group of people you would really struggle to find.

Imagine what they would be like if they weren't christians then....

feenster...sadly they do it all in the name of "Christianity"!!

They'd be OK I reckon...

"whereas Jesus used to hang out with beggars, prostitutes (allegedly) and lepers, and insisted on turning the other cheek... "

Allegedley.

feenster...sadly they do it all in the name of "Christianity"!!

Well, they haven't quite got the hang of it yet then, have they? Give them time.

Well, feenster...I reckon they've just about perfected it!! 😉

So Mother Theresa had it all wrong then? 😯