Surely people should take critical comments about their beliefs as a test of faith rather than an insult ? After all, if one can prove it, it stops being a belief, so there's bound to be scope for questioning.
People call me stupid and worse all the time but I never take it to heart - it's quite funny :o)
tolerance, great word often used, seldom practiced and always expected of others not ourselves.
People call me stupid and worse all the time but I never take it to heart - it's quite funny :o)
Though this thread has been tedious in the extreme, [b]your[/b] comments - or, at least, some of them - SFB have been rather interesting.
Just for a bit of balance, like. You brainless, brainwashed idiot with immaginary friends. 😉
But the goal of the Alpha course is to give people an open forum to discuss the issues that crop up in life and to see what Christianity has to say about it.
It's not. The goal of the Alpha course is to convert people to christianity.
To claim otherwise is just plain wrong.
p.s. Bear Grylls is a fraud.
brainwashed idiot with immaginary friends
now hang on, I didn't say you could slag off my [b]friends[/b] 🙁
I'm still fervently waiting for ernie to tell us why his beliefs are superior and what metric he applies...
Surely people should take critical comments about their beliefs as a test of faith rather than an insult?
There's a difference between critical comments about beliefs and name calling.
People call me stupid and worse all the time but I never take it to heart
You haven't figured out that not everyone is the same then ?
That's why I'm happy to call [i]you[/i] a ****, despite not dreaming of calling some other people that (in this case, I think you're a thick ****)
I find the clue is in how people behave. Generally speaking, people who are [i]likely[/i] to take offence, don't dish it out - LoulaBella for example.
Of course there are always exceptions ..... if I recall correctly, Mr Woppit complained on this thread that someone had been abusive towards him.
But generally speaking the rule applies .......... see if you can figure it out SFB
oh, and I was thinking about the power of prayer over dinner, and wondered if it might actually work more or less as claimed. Perhaps if you have enough faith either in god/s, or prayer itself or whatever, something may happen. I find psychokinesis somewhat more probable than gods, as at least it's being done by someone I can [b]see[/b], even if the mechanism is unclear.
don't dish it out - LoulaBella for example.
Not quite true, strictly speaking.
There's a difference between critical comments about beliefs and name calling.
but why should this topic be different to any other where we feel free to poke fun ?
You haven't figured out that not everyone is the same then ?
given that my last remark to you was that perhaps your beliefs were best suited to you but that people are different people I think we can say that I do know that.
I understand that some people are more sensitive than others, but really that's their responsibilty. If they choose to be insulted they only have themselves to blame, when they could just as easily laugh it off, or turn the other cheek as recommended by that Jesus bloke.
I seem to remember her calling MrWoppit a c--t (fair enough IMO, although he's posted a lot of comments that I would agree with in this thread), and she's also implied that all atheists are either hypocrites for using a word they don't mean, or have crap sex. Which is ironic, because if I wanted to put the crimp in my sex life, religion would come a close second behind moving back in with my parents. 🙂
Not quite true, strictly speaking.
OK, choose another example if you wish........ will SimonRalli do ? I wouldn't dream of insulting him.
OK, choose another example if you wish........ will SimonRalli do ? I wouldn't dream of insulting him
It wasnt my wish!
consider the lilies
surfer - MemberI think its all become a bit surreal!
Something else we can agree on surfer. I find it completely unreal that this pointless thread (apart from the OP which was a legit question) has in 3 days, surpassed in size, petesgaff's thread.
I find it completely unreal that this pointless thread
how can it be pointless if people post so enthusiastically ? And however unsubstatiated our beliefs (or failings to believe) may be, they do strongly influence how we live and behave
I find it completely unreal that this pointless thread (apart from the OP which was a legit question)
So if no-one had replied it would be less pointless?
I'm annoyed that the "swivel eyed loons" tag has been taken down, by the way.
Bear Grylls - a fraud?
Surely not? What is your evidence?
But he said we should follow him into the wilderness?
Out of interest which is more deplorable, some 'nasty words' said by a few 'atheists' on an internet thread or the millions of people who have been killed through the ages by people fighting over their sort of fairy tale being the right one and someone else's being wrong?
I'm struggling to think of an occasion when a few 'nasty words' has led to the deaths of millions but I'm sure I could pull out a few examples of people's unflinching devotion to some religious clap trap adding to an already impressive body count.
Ultimately this is the reason that I detest organised religion, the lives that are taken in its name. Having dealt with the consequences of people believing that they were 'protecting' the christians of Europe (which I considered myself one at the time, having been brought up CofE) from invasion by slaughtering innocent civilians who happened to be muslims in a place called Gornji Vakuf I 'lost' my faith, completely and utterly.
People have argued to me that religion/religious people do a lot but is it stuff that wouldn't happen without religion? Do atheists not give to charity? Are atheists not 'good neighbours'? Yes religion/religious people do good but the religions they believe in are often used as a reason to do so much bad, and considering what a vicious and war-like species we can be having another excuse to kill each other is hardly a good thing.
When all is said and done having faith is a good thing, but that faith doesn't need to be directed towards some make-believe omnipresent being. That faith would be better directed towards your fellow man, your family and your friends. Make the most of this life rather than spend it racking up credits towards one you believe is awaiting you when you die.
Not quite true, strictly speaking.
OK, choose another example if you wish........ will SimonRalli do ? I wouldn't dream of insulting him.
Eh? Sorry to be dim, but I am genuinely not too sure why my name has been raised! Is someone saying I insulted them, or is someone saying I may have taken offence?
If someone does feel offended by anything I have written, I do sincerly apologise. As far as I can see I feel I have raised issues of holes in the current state of knowledge of science while still fully supporting the biological evidence for evolution, as opposed to pointing out anything personally. Anyone who knows me would know I would feel terrible about making a personal comment about someone.
When all is said and done having faith is a good thing
disagree - instead of relying on guesswork, use observation, deduction and experiment. Have faith in yourself perhaps as you can be reasonably sure you are actually there.
Eh? Sorry to be dim, but I am genuinely not too sure why my name has been raised! Is someone saying I insulted them, or is someone saying I may have taken offence?
I think you were being held up as an example of a reasonable poster who wouldn't say anything to insult anyone else. 😀
Simon, you are being identified as someone who does not dish out, and does not deserve, abuse of any kind. It is a form of compliment I think. 🙂
Eh? Sorry to be dim, but I am genuinely not too sure why my name has been raised!
I gave [i]you[/i] as an example of someone who I wouldn't dream of insulting. If you couldn't figure that out, then you obviously are dim ...... you daft docile div.
Oh bollox.............[i]now[/i] look what you made me do 😐
As regards whether or not God (in any form) exists, the reality is that if He does then we will only know for sure when we die, and if there's no life after death then we'll never know.
On one hand all logical, scientific evidence does back up the athiests' case. On the other hand the fact that billions of people over the millenia have had faith does possibly point to the existence of superior being, and that religion is in essence mankind trying to interpret something he can never fully understand.
So having put myself on a fence in the middle of the debate, I'd then like to say that one thing that does strike me about this thread (and others like it) is that invariably many of the athiests descend into childish name calling and abuse. All the comments about "brainless", "fairy tales", "easily led", "can't think for themselves", "imaginary friends" etc. It's as if they have the need to be abusive to someone, and religious folk are an easy target. I also suspect they get quite annoyed by the fact the vast majority of religious folk won't take the bait, and refuse to be offended by them.
All the Christian (and Muslim) people I know are quite happy to have their views and beliefs questioned. However they in turn don't tend to descend to the infantile level of some of their abusers. I have to admit that seeing the approach taken by the two sides (tolerant understanding versus silly insults) does make me wonder who exactly has the better life. I'd hate to hate like that, if you see what I mean.
the reality is that if He does then we will only know for sure when we die, and if there's no life after death then we'll never know.
that's one interpretation - or it might be that god/s have just allotted us this span and you vanish utterly. Also the number of people believing a thing doesn't influence its truthfulness, unless, as I have been given to speculate, we are all god, and whatever we happen to believe is actually so.
I had been under the impression the insults were reasonably balanced, but I shall think on modifying my approach in future to what I can plausibly justify.
I suppose what's lurking in my mind is that - were gods to have created us, shouldn't we be grateful for the incontravertably real life we have [b]now[/b] rather than ungratefully subsuming it into a mere preparation for some other form of supposedly better life to follow ? Is this that we have so awful, and just a veiled exam for the real thing ? Why not live this life to the best of one's ability and take any subsequent existence as a bonus should it eventuate ?
All the Christian (and Muslim) people I know are quite happy to have their views and beliefs questioned. However they in turn don't tend to descend to the infantile level of some of their abusers.
There's a possibility that they choose to rise above it and there's also the possibility that it's hard to ridicule a rationalist argument even if it's delivered in a childish manner. I've no idea which is more probable BTW.
Went to a heart breaking funeral recently, the bloke who died was a dyed in the wool atheist and his wife was a devout Christian. Both were/are the nicest, kindest people you could hope to meet. They had an agreement that if she died, he'd get to arrange a Humanist funeral, and if he went a Christian one. During the funeral the priest said that because John didn't believe in god, there was no guarantee that he would get to heaven, and Anne would have to come to terms with this.
It just struck me as an awful thing to say at such time, so i'm inclined to think that atheists don't have the monopoly on childishness.
as I have been given to speculate, we are all god
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man and woman is a star.[/url]
[i]that's one interpretation - or it might be that god/s have just allotted us this span and you vanish utterly. Also the number of people believing a thing doesn't influence its truthfulness, unless, as I have been given to speculate, we are all god, and whatever we happen to believe is actually so. [/i]
Indeed, that may well be the case. Who knows. It could even be the case that what we think of as "God" is actually the collective conscience of mankind, which would a bit of a turnaround.
[i]Why not live this life to the best of one's ability and take any subsequent existence as a bonus should it eventuate ? [/i]
Most religious folk I know do do that. As do many athiests too. The people that don't make the most of this life aren't in either of those camps. They are (I reckon) the ones that spend their lives slumped in front of brainless TV munching junk food and swilling lager. Not that there's anything wrong with doing that every now and again mind you.
[i]It just struck me as an awful thing to say at such time, so i'm inclined to think that atheists don't have the monopoly on childishness.[/i]
Very true, they certainly don't. However looking back through this thread it's fair to say that the vast bulk of the childish insults and abuse does come from the athiest camp. Obviously they aren't all like that, but sadly many are.
They are (I reckon) the ones that spend their lives slumped in front of brainless TV munching junk food and swilling lager.
Your prejudice is showing. Had you ever considered that that might be the correct thing to do as this is heaven to a former, now forgotten life in which you did the right thing ? Or perhaps there are an infinite number of stacked heavens, each with different requirements?
Yes. Elvis really is dead. 🙂
kennyp - Member
As regards whether or not God (in any form) exists, the reality is that if He does then we will only know for sure when we die, and if there's no life after death then we'll never know.On one hand all logical, scientific evidence does back up the athiests' case. On the other hand the fact that billions of people over the millenia have had faith does possibly point to the existence of superior being, and that religion is in essence mankind trying to interpret something he can never fully understand.
But there are a lot of different gods worshipped, so at the End of Times (if you want to believe in that), Christians have got about the same chance of everlasting life as atheists. It would be a bummer to be backing the wrong horse all your life, wouldn't it?
All the Christian (and Muslim) people I know are quite happy to have their views and beliefs questioned. However they in turn don't tend to descend to the infantile level of some of their abusers. I have to admit that seeing the approach taken by the two sides (tolerant understanding versus silly insults) does make me wonder who exactly has the better life. I'd hate to hate like that, if you see what I mean.
I don't think you are really on the fence at all, are you?
If someone does feel offended by anything I have written, I do sincerly apologise. As far as I can see I feel I have raised issues of holes in the current state of knowledge of science while still fully supporting the biological evidence for evolution, as opposed to pointing out anything personally. Anyone who knows me would know I would feel terrible about making a personal comment about someone.
Simon, you may be the Messiah but you are a very naughty boy! 😆
I don't think you are really on the fence at all, are you?
My thoughts exactly or as Bob would say "you just want to be on the side thats winning"?
Going for the 1000 posts are we?
Put a sock in it everyone.
All the Christian (and Muslim) people I know are quite happy to have their views and beliefs questioned. However they in turn don't tend to descend to the infantile level of some of their abusers.
And I'd also ask, am I unusual in that the religion of people who surround me NEVER becomes an issue?
I don't feel the need to question the faith of colleagues, etc. Does it happen a lot in other parts of the country?
[i]But there are a lot of different gods worshipped, so at the End of Times (if you want to believe in that), Christians have got about the same chance of everlasting life as atheists. It would be a bummer to be backing the wrong horse all your life, wouldn't it?[/i]
That depends on whether there were any consequences in "backing the wrong horse". Instead, what about the possibility that when you die you end up with the afterlife you believe in? Maybe athiests just vanish, Christians live forever in heaven and Vikings go to Valhalla? Probably not, but we'll never know. And maybe people "back a horse" because they believe it's the right thing to do in this life, rather than planning for the afterlife?
[i]I don't think you are really on the fence at all, are you? [/i]
I'm genuinely not sure. There's part of me says that science explains everything, that we get one life and that we're nothing more than a load of molecules that move around and ride bikes. On the other hand.....the fact billions of people believe in "something" (even if they can't agree exactly what) does make me wonder.
[i] don't feel the need to question the faith of colleagues, etc. Does it happen a lot in other parts of the country? [/i]
Well it happens a lot on this forum.
lol, kennyp.
My 5 yr old daughter keeps coming home from school telling me about how Jesus is the son of God, etc. (This in a school with 50% Muslim kids).
To keep things balanced I'll gently try and tell her about other faiths, that people do make stories up, some people don't believe in God etc.
My favourite was a discussion about heaven, where I explained that I preferred the Viking heaven where I could just drink beer for eternity. Cue puzzled look on 5yr olds face.
I've been thinking about the 'fairy tale' thing, and realised that in normal life, we are used to people trying to pull the wool over our eyes, usually to gain some advantage, so any statement made to us is filtered for credibility. We're used to politicians lying to us (in fact, that may be their main function), journalists ditto, advertisers hyping their products, con men, shysters etc etc, and we're often understandably scathing about their stories and lies - but suddenly, when it comes to religion, we're supposed to suspend our critical faculties and 'respect' what we would otherwise castigate so as not to cause offense. For me it's just another set of implausible stories and not a special case, and while people are free to adopt them if they wish, it doesn't entitle them different treatment.
...it doesn't entitle them different treatment.
So why are you treating them different then ? ...............Hypocrite.
The OP asked a pretty straightforward question. Your level of input in this 14 page thread has been frankly quite staggering. What other question would you dedicate so much time to answering ?
Would you have had so much input if the guy had asked a straightforward political question ? No.
Would you have had so much input if the guy had asked for cooking suggestions ? No.
But because the guy asked a question concerning 'religion', you've gone completely over the top, prattling on for days. You obviously treat religion quite different to any other subject.
And despite dedicating the last few days of your life to the question, you have had nothing constructive to contribute - have you ever been on an Alpha course ? Were you disappointed ? Well ?
No, despite [i]claiming[/i] not to treat people's religious views differently, you obviously do. Hypocrite.
So why are you treating them different then ? ...............Hypocrite.
thanks for pointing that out, I never would have realised 🙂
You obviously treat religion quite different to any other subject.
it may have escaped your notice that religion is an abstract concept, not a person. I'm interested in natural philosophy.
And despite dedicating the last few days of your life to the question, you have had nothing constructive to contribute
constructive ? What are we making ? You're entitled to your opinion of my posts, but I don't see why they would have any more value than anyone else's
No, despite claiming not to treat people's religious views differently, you obviously do. Hypocrite.
well, from where I am it seems to me I'm levelling exactly the same degree of scepticism I do towards crank lengths, hifi cables, nutrition, rights of way, wars, expensive bikes and many other topics I can't remember right now. Perhaps one's philospophy of life, whether involving beings which cannot be directly perceived or not, is more important than some of those other matters and deserves more attention ?
[edit] I apologise for the flippant 'constructing what?' remark. What we're constructing is an argument, and despite many of my points not being addressed, it has helped me to understand my position more clearly as I thought it through. So perhaps this is an online omega class ?
