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In the past the main thing which stopped working class people being racist was socialism.
Yeah, right-o.
The pubs in mining villages in the 70s and 80s were well known centres of multiculturalism, of course.
And then there's this...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/jan/01/richardnortontaylor2
Go on, tell us another one...
😅
capitalism stops Covid.
Well, arguably all those filthy capitalist pigdog pharma companies are doing just that!
Yep, that’s got to be it…
I thought the relationship between obesity and income was well-understood, but apparently not.
I thought the relationship between obesity and income was well-understood, but apparently not.
One minute they are struggling to put
food on the table
Next they are victims of too much poor quality food.
Which is it?
Obviously it can be both. Lots of rubbish food can be cheaper than a half decent diet.
Well, arguably all those filthy capitalist pigdog pharma companies are doing just that!
I thought as I typed it that mine is actually the stronger argument 🙂
Obviously it can be both. Lots of rubbish food can be cheaper than a half decent diet.
Obviously yes. But the blanket assertions that are being chucked around here to justify racial prejudice are, frankly, pathetic.
I still resent the idea that it is the poor that are prone to racism. That's not my experience of people in this country. Those most fervently anti-foreigner tend to also have a soft spot for bashing those financial struggling more than them. They just like hitting out at others. It is easier to stir up these resentments when times are tough for more people though, so a combination of a less unequal society and ongoing prosperity does reduce the frictions that fire up the existing embers of hatred. Those embers are always there though. In depressing amounts in this country (and elsewhere).
Obviously yes. But the blanket assertions that are being chucked around here to justify racial prejudice are, frankly, pathetic.
Self-awareness to the fore, I see.
Self-awareness to the fore, I see.
69.57% Leave area.
It's there in black and white, fella.
Ransos – The Grey Mare I can guarantee you will be the same today as it was 25 years ago. The Clarence is now a really nice curry house, so that’s progress.
But Labour lost a 3,500 majority last time out. That kind of swing was replicated throughout the surrounding areas
Funny story for you though. My parting words to the regulars in the Rose and Crown were “you’re all a bunch of ****ing bigots!”. My friend Karen was working behind the bar. She said there were a few seconds of silence then one of them piped up ….
“What’s a bigot?”
I kid you not 😂
Their collective brainpower then apparently reasoned that me calling them bigots (despite them not knowing what it meant 5 minutes ago) was actually far worse than them using the N word to describe black people, therefore it was me who was being offensive, not them
You couldn’t make it up.
Well, fair do's for speaking out. My primary concerns BITD were a) which pubs would serve this fresh-faced but committed underage drinker and b) which pubs had the lowest threat of violence. I left before the conversations turned to racism.
69.57% Leave area.
It’s there in black and white, fella.
It really isn't, but far be it from me to get in the way of your sneering.
sneering
Voting yourself into greater poverty because somebody creates a poster with lots of swarthy-looking folk on it and the headline 'Breaking Point'?
I'd say there's plenty to sneer at.
Voting yourself into greater poverty because somebody creates a poster with lots of swarthy-looking folk on it and the headline ‘Breaking Point’?
Do you think that's what they did? How many of them? I know that you dislike blanket assertions so I'm sure you'll provide a comprehensive answer.
I’d say there’s plenty to sneer at.
Ok Cyril.
The pubs in mining villages in the 70s and 80s were well known centres of multiculturalism, of course.
Charlie Williams went down quite well in our Working Men's Club.
69.57% Leave area.
It’s there in black and white, fella.
So are they racists who voted "leave" or racist because they voted "leave"
Do you think that’s what they did?
Yep.
How many of them?
To a greater or lesser extent probably around 50% of the 69.57%. But that is (as you know) subjective and the amount that the indisputably racist tone of Vote Leave influenced individual people would vary.
Ok Cyril.
Thanks Reg.
So are they racists who voted “leave” or racist because they voted “leave”
Not everyone who voted Leave is a racist, but all the racists voted Leave.
Edit: If by a man's friends shall he be known....
(That is not an actual quote)
Ok Cyril.
I understood that reference and enjoyed it.
Apart from that this thread is heading down the Starmer route so I'm out.
Not everyone who voted Leave is a racist, but all the racists voted Leave.
So you are happily tarring a town based on a minority?
I understood that reference and enjoyed it.
I didn't get it, but I looked it up - my nose isn't that big. Otherwise spot on.
Apart from that this thread is heading down the Starmer route so I’m out.
Me too. I guess we'll see if the Hartlepool comrades come flocking back to the banner or if the sound of jackboots is more to their liking.
So you are happily tarring a town based on a minority?
Have you ever been to Hartlepool?
Actually, I've fallen into the trap (again) of being needlessly provocative for my own entertainment.
I guess we'll see what the electorate of Hartlepool have to say on the matter.
I hope it isn't 'Brexity' but I'm pretty sure it is going to be...
That's me done on this one.
My experience is the complete opposite of that
You should get out more then. My experience has overwhelmingly been that racism is much more of a problem in deprived white communities and areas. I once had a difference of opinion with my late father-in-law when he declared 10 years or so ago that 'racism doesn't really exist any more in Britain'. My reply was that may be true in leafy Sevenoaks and multicultural London where he lived and worked, but not your average council estate in Tyneside where even today the words p*** and darkie are still in common usage.
Yes, there are plenty of middle class racists out there, most of whom have never left the 1970s. But there are far more in poorer areas, and they are much younger, and as such present a much bigger problem than some ageing boomers banging on about the old days and political correctness gone mad.
There's definitely more racism in "white communities and areas" than "multicultural London". It's not about poor/middle/rich though. You need to be careful not to ascribe morals to economic circumstances. It adds to the "sneering" and "condescension" of those struggling financially.
Not everyone who voted Leave is a racist, but all the racists voted Leave.
I know this is quick and easy shorthand... but it's not true. Plenty of racists voted Remain. Plenty of racists target their hatred at people from outside Europe, and voted to Remain for reasons of economics and convienence.
Not everyone who voted Leave is a racist, but all the racists voted Leave.
The people who voted to reduce predominantly white immigration from Europe and increase rest of the world immigration?
"Most people who voted Leave weren't racist, but most racists voted Leave."
I find it difficult to believe that many racists voted remain!
The people who voted to reduce predominantly white immigration from Europe and increase rest of the world immigration?
Oh is that what they were told was going to happen with Brexit? I just have missed that Vote Leave ad.
To a greater or lesser extent probably around 50% of the 69.57%.
Cite.
The people who voted to reduce predominantly white immigration from Europe and increase rest of the world immigration?
the leave campaign definitely concentrated on the ‘predominantly white aspect of immigration....
It’s ridiculous to imagine that pure good old fashioned racism didn’t play a huge part in the vote for Brexit. It wasn’t even dog-whistle racism. More foghorn.
The fact that the racists didn’t read the small print that said that the ‘predominantly white’ immigrants would be replaced by.... you know... ‘them’ is just one of brexits many ironies
And getting back to the point of the thread: it’s no coincidence that Boris got the ‘Vote Leave’ crew to run his successful election campaign
I think we can all predict what the Tory’s election material in Hartlepool will look like, can’t we?
More of the same...
About 10 years ago we moved to a small ex mining village of County Durham. The mines closed decades ago but some people still live in those times.
As I started to talk to more people I was taken aback by the racist language being used.
Some of the comments wouldn't have been out of place in Nazi Germany.
Violence in pubs was a normal Friday and Saturday night so after one visit to my " local " I never set foot in it again. The shouted obscenities were awful. Ironically it closed down and has recently been bought by an Asian family to convert to a house.
A lot of people see nothing more on the horizon than a trip to the WMC on a Saturday night for bingo and the "turn". Holiday is drinking in Benidorm.
I am not in an area where I see poverty,but I do see people who have a poor education and that seems to give them a narrow outlook on life.
At the last general election a Labour heartland became Conservative.Why ? Immigration ? Yes. Labour thinking places like this will never be lost so just not being active enough. Did people like Boris Johnson ? Definitely not. But Corbyn was unelectable even to staunch Labour supporters.
Residents here are trying to change things by a Facebook page,tree planting,litter picking,etc. The response has come really from people who have moved into the area and the Asian family I mentioned earlier have had a warm welcome.
This thread is another classic example of the snobbery which infects this place.
Yes. I'm with dazh.
Re racism and poverty - there's a slightly more complex link. In reality, most actual individuals don't much care about someone's race on a personal level - they use it as a label to create an out-group. That's how you end up with people saying stuff like 'oh not you, you're alright - it's the other ones'. Racism is constructed just to create an out-group that can be then demonised.
The link with poverty is that when things aren't going well people look for someone to blame, so they reach for a handy out-group. If you don't know any black/asian people, then it's easy to be racist - you don't end up with the cognitive dissonance of having to exempt the black/asian people that you know.
That's how you end up with also resenting immigrants, who are white. That demonstrates that the shittiness isn't actually about race, not really - it's just a convenient way to create a scapegoat in people's minds.
So racism is ok so long as it doesn't discriminate based on colour alone? Well blow me down. That's some impressive back-solving right there.
But that, I'm afraid, is bollocks. Again.
The Leave campaign, with THAT poster in particular, set out to appeal to people whose only reaction would be 'brown face = bad'. There was no nuance, because no nuance was required. The target audience was people who don't like to think much about anything. And they played a blinder. To pretend anything else is just after the fact double-think and laughable.
Jesus - sympathise with mitigating factors if you feel the need (in my opinion there is no excuse for racism ever), but don't try to rewrite history. And blindingly obvious recent history to boot.
They targeted morons and their tactics were vindicated.
That’s me done on this one.
But that, I’m afraid, is bollocks. Again.
Ha ha.
Got me!
👍
Anyway i predict a Tory win by some distance.
I disagree, I can't see the tories winning this by-election. It's a win for Labour IMO.
I disagree, I can’t see the tories winning this by-election. It’s a win for Labour IMO.
69.57% Leave area.
Electorate very brexity.
Tory win.
Reading the first 1-2 pages of this post seems to me why Labour are struggling in the polls recently.
I have no political affiliations and I believed in the past that you should vote according to the issues of the day and on possible solutions. Many people choose their political affiliations and adhere to that for the rest of their lives (like following a footie team), and there's nothing wrong with that view. But reading the first couple of pages, and the sneering at the Hartlepool locals is where it's going wrong, people feel abandoned by the 'champagne socialist' elite and their middle class hand wringing followers, and turn to whoever else is talking to them. Remember Emily Thornberry's white van man remark a few years ago? Well some of you have have repeated that with your attitudes.
I would really like a stronger left in this country as we are so unbalanced politically at this moment but we are not going to get it anytime soon. Labour has tried for many years to make inroads into the Tory strongholds of London and the home counties that they have now been absorbed into them, as a result I feel the people in deprived areas feel they have nobody fighting for them. To simply pass them off as racist scumbags is wrong, education (in whatever form) is key. Racists don't always stay racist, you can change people's opinions, usually by giving them hope.
Labour have been the leading party in London for over thirty years now... it's a long time since London was a "Tory stronghold", if it ever was (arguably it was only under Thatcher).
The genius is, those areas that allegedly feel "let down by Labour" have moved to voting Conservative while the country has been run by the Conservatives. They may well feel left behind by "those running the country from London"... but that's under Tory rule... and then they reward the Tories by voting for them.
education (in whatever form) is key
A simple comment, that is no doubt true. The next step... what actions should it inform, and who will carry out those actions?
@kelvin London and the home counties, not just London.
My missus is from the North (a large council estate in South Leeds), and I'm from a very less than affluent background in East London, so I've seen it from two very different perspectives over the last 40 years. When I first started going to Leeds in 1979 I was appalled by how racist the ordinary people were and it changed enormously over subsequent years, and this is why I feel just labelling Hartlepool residents is unhelpful.
A simple comment, that is no doubt true. The next step… what actions should it inform, and who will carry out those actions?
I wish I knew mate, I'm not that smart (the result of a poor education?), but I hope someone else is smart enough!
I would really like a stronger left in this country as we are so unbalanced politically at this moment but we are not going to get it anytime soon. Labour has tried for many years to make inroads into the Tory strongholds of London and the home counties that they have now been absorbed into them, as a result I feel the people in deprived areas feel they have nobody fighting for them. To simply pass them off as racist scumbags is wrong, education (in whatever form) is key. Racists don’t always stay racist, you can change people’s opinions, usually by giving them hope.
Hallejulah! Someone else who gets it. Be careful though, when I raised this on the old brexit thread I was called a nazi sympathiser 😏
What we'll see in this by-election is confirmation of labour's failure in these areas. Instead of listening and taking the issues which affect people seriously and proposing concrete solutions, Starmer thinks all he has to do is not talk about brexit and wave a few flags to get the jingoistic juices flowing. What he needs to do is start setting out how he intends to help these areas and empower them to help themselves. It's going to need a whole lot more than flags, british recovery bonds and 2.1% pay rises for nurses.
I wish I knew mate
I wish I did as well. Actually, I wish anyone did.