Shooting generates some cash for sure, though the actual figures are over inflated. But it also does not generate anything like the opportunities that a green tourist economy would. Certainly there is space for hunting, shooting, fishing. But the days of the big estates with mono culture land use are over.
On that topic, are there many other examples where large areas are managed so extensively in order to maximize the numbers of just 1 or 2 species for hunting?
In the UK, see most of our upland that is deer, grouse and sheep orientated.
I am sure there must be some elsewhere in the world.
Living in a quite shooting centric part of the world I see very little impact on the local economy. Sure there a few people employed by the estates but as a percentage of the population, it's tiny. Far far more employed in broader tourism. Through work I know a few people from families who own shooting estates. From the amount of diversifying they are doing on their estates it can't be all that. Like pretty much every farmer I've ever known they are keen to tell you how tough it is to make a living but I am aware that not all farmers are necessarily being entirely realistic with those claims so I assume a bit of skepticism is needed with those claims from the estate owners too.
Also through work I spend quite a bit of time talking to Germans who are into shooting in Germany. Getting a licence there seems to be a big deal in terms of theoretical and practical exams. The shooting also seems to be worlds apart from what I witness with the pheasant and grouse shooting I see here. UK deer stalking I guess is closer. I've no idea if German hunting is a profitable enterprise for the land owners mind. I could imagine a rewilded Scotland giving German style hunting options if you wanted that as part of the mix.
Broadly, I can't deny that in every fibre of my being I want to see the current state here to change - ethically, environmentally, aesthetically. I think I'm probably in the majority in that view, even here in the heart of hunter part of the uk. But the majority don't hold much influence on this. The land owners seem more financially driven than by any other issue - a no brainer financial case for change has to be made to change their priorities if anything is going to change in my lifetime.
This article published today, though focused on sheep grazing management, is pretty interesting in terms of how the land changes over time if they're excluded, follows on from the pics above: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/17/graze-anatomy-fencing-fewer-sheep-richer-wildlife--aoe
^ good evidence for how much sheep and deer affect upland areas.
I observe the Ben Lawers photos are old(ish), likely a decade ago, as I have helped NTS via DofE groups to plant many thousands more trees up there, and the older established areas are becoming a seed source for the non-fenced areas now.
In the UK, see most of our upland that is deer, grouse and sheep orientated.
I am sure there must be some elsewhere in the world.
Sorry Matt, it was specifically elsewhere in the world I was querying.
Some more interesting reading.
Direct comparison between Norway and Scotland.
Huge difference, and really does blow a hole in the argument that grouse moor and deer forests in Scotland are managed for wildlife and diversity.
An interesting link buried in this about red deer too - basically ours in Scotland are small and impoverished it seems..
Very true Matt - the scottish red deer are generally in poor condition - too many of them on the land leads to undernourishment and smaller deer survive better - along with the Victorians hunting out the big stags. result our deer are small. malnourished and not healthy
Good read, thanks Matt.
All forms of hunting should be banned, INCLUDING FISHING(as a 'sport')
For starters we dont need to hunt, our food is prepared for us, and then there's the humanitarian aspect. Can we really call ourselves civilized when the death of some creature that died in fear and alarm is the end goal.
^ eh?
dyna ti - whats the moral difference between killing your own food ( hunting) and getting someone else to do it ( shopping)?
We kill in a humane manner minimizing suffering. That is the goal, not to cause suffering which is the complete opposite to hunting where the animal doesnt meet a quick clean end.
I thought that was obvious.
@Matt 🙄
Hunting can be a quick end - at least as quick as an abattoir and you have to also factor in free range v factory farmed. there really is no difference morally between hunting for the pot and eating meat from supermarkets. Hunting not for the pot ie the killings of raptors and hares etc is indefensible
Hunting not for the pot ie the killings of raptors and hares etc is indefensible
I agree with you here yes.
there really is no difference morally between hunting for the pot and eating meat from supermarkets.
I don't really agree with you here.
Meat is an intricate part of the human diet and has been since the dawn of time. While we take steps to minimize suffering. It is only those who choose a non meat lifestyle that claim it's morality in eating meat at all. They try to set themselves on a higher moral ground, but where none exists.
I don't think we can use a morality argument against eating meat, only about how it is slaughtered.
What is the moral difference? Have you ever been in an abattoir? Seen animals killed for food? there really is no moral differnce that I can see between factory farmed meat that goes thru an abbotoir to be killed and a deer shot for food out in the hills.
Have you ever been in an abattoir? Seen animals killed for food?
More importantly, have you ?.
Or do you just base your thoughts on the matter from what you think or want to believe actually goes on.
Nobody is claiming its not a horrific environment, dealing with death, but the point at hand is on killing without cruelty, not really whether you agree with it or not.
yes I have. Killing without cruelty - there is no real difference in the cruelty in an abattoir ( and the transport to it) or on the moorsides IMO
I eat meat but I have no illusions that meat is animals and they are killed for food nor have I any illusions about factory farming or hunting.
When I ate meat I killed it myself on moral grounds because I had seen how farmed animals were treated.
I wasn’t perfect at it but managed a good few years without buying meat. Any that I did I was very choosy about.
Hunting and eating it is very much the moral high ground.
yes I have. Killing without cruelty – there is no real difference in the cruelty in an abattoir ( and the transport to it) or on the moorsides IMO
I eat meat but I have no illusions that meat is animals and they are killed for food nor have I any illusions about factory farming or hunting.
Me too. As im a time served Butcher I was interested in all aspects of my trade and took a 2 year p/t course in meat inspection, based in Glasgow Abattoir. So I'm very familiar with it all from start to finish, and obviously the legislation required in the production of meat as our foodstuff.
Personally I've never witnessed cruelty as a rule in a slaughterhouse, apart from odd incidents perpetrated by poor operatives, acting by themselves and who were sacked for their actions.
But if you can't tell the difference, then you are the wrong person to speak on such matters.
I have visited abattoirs and and I've also shot and butchered deer. There is absolutely no comparison in the level of stress and suffering and I know which I'd prefer. Farm animals, often from intensive farming systems, transported stressfully en masse in overcrowded vehicles to an industrial facility where many sense what's about to happen and bleat/moo pitifully, clearly distressed up until they are stunned. Whilst I accept that abattoir staff do all they can to minimise suffering they are not always successful. They are bleak, depressing places and many farm animals have fairly miserable lives even before the point of slaughter, Two for a fiver Tesco chicken anyone? Male dairy calves?
Compared to a deer in it's natural environment, not transported anywhere, unstressed, browsing leaves, blissfully unaware of a stalkers presence until it falls over having never even heard the shot that killed it. Which is more ethical? To say hunting for food should be banned whilst defending the industrial slaughter of animals is gross hypocrisy.
Cheers for the link Matt, interesting read.
But if you can’t tell the difference, then you are the wrong person to speak on such matters.
I can tell the difference
As the blokes post points out - there isn't really one or not a quantifiable one that makes a moral differnce
Stick to calling o9ut the shooting and hunting bams for the wrong they do but don't think factory reared abbotoir killed meat is morally superior to free range and cleanly shot meat
anyway - enough thread digression
Oh bums TJ, what a dilemma for you. Bloke's point stands with you on abattoirs, but against your views on hunting.
But fair enough, back to hunting driven grouse.
Or we can all agree that there are points on all sides and people have differing views. 'Agree to disagree' like so many arguments and debates, should then be the status quo.
works for me
Another interesting piece - I agree that food and farming is a totally integral part of the countryside, and there's changes/improvements needed on both sides of the (non existent) fence imo.
Further to my assertion that larsen or cage traps are routinely used on grouse moors to kill birds of prey. Brads was insistent they are not. These cage traps are often used illegally both in that they are not checked daily as they should be and that they are used to catch and kill raptors
I find it interesting as to where Larsen traps are locally.
The estates in the near vicinity - just off tracks or roads, easily accessible to maintain.
The estates I know in Glen Almond with evidenced wildlife crime and suspicions of wildlife crime - hidden way off the track, invisible unless within a few metres etc.
Keep an eye on the hidden ones matt and report them if any suspicions
The lovely Dalhousie estate are being investigated further over the death through gas poisoning of a guest in one of their properties. Maybe they will take time off burning the moors to get their stories straight?
Opening para…
A Perthshire shooting estate faces three years of restrictions after a Scottish government body imposed limitations on its general licence.
And linked in the comments https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-60156311
3 of the white tailed eagles reintroduced to the isle of wight killed
the local MP?
"
Mr Loder said: "Dorset is not the place for eagles to be reintroduced. I’m not challenging government for more money for Dorset so it goes on this.
"I don’t condone this at all, but I want Dorset Police to focus on county lines rather than spend time and resources on this."
Convicted game keeper from the Angus Millden Estate.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/scots-gamekeeper-exposed-part-brutal-26921255
he sent horror photographs to be developed and the alarm was raised by the shop worker who was appalled
Ive read that a few times but find it hard to believe youd take photos of animal cruelty then get them developed in a shop.
Well the good news is he'll probably never be able to work as a gamekeeper again, I can't imagine he'll ever be able to hold an air rifle certificate let alone a Firearms Licence. Not sure which makes me more angry, what he did or the fact it's an incidental charge that will actually stop him being able to work as a keeper.
Ive read that a few times but find it hard to believe youd take photos of animal cruelty then get them developed in a shop.
I mean, his solicitor wasn't wrong.
"How he was detected suggests a lack of guile and thought," the lawyer said. "It appears that he didn't think through the implications of what he was doing."
I'm not really sure how else he thought that would end. Same idiot mentality as Gary Glitter really.
That mp I referred to above has now leant on the local police. Investigations closed. Wildlife crime unit disbanded.
Its a criminal conspiracy
I mean, his solicitor wasn’t wrong.
He had a QC, impressive he was able to afford that, isn't it? Local estate to me and as disruptive to access as you could imagine them being. Various bridges on their land have all been declared dangerous and barbed wire up over the last decade or so. Weirdly only the ones on once popular Duke of Edinburgh routes; must be those heavy packs Bronze kids pack.
And it's exactly those people that give all estates a shitty name. If you think views are entrenched (not the right word but I'm on nights) here (eg. towards drivers) you ain't seen anything in the shooting world. You literally have to be 'for' everything or you're basically no better than an 'anti' (according to some I hasten to add, not everyone thinks like this).
One of our local spots - another Golden Eagle and I could have placed a bet about which estate....
https://raptorpersecutionuk.org/2022/05/17/dead-golden-eagle-found-in-strathbraan-police-scotland-appeals-for-information/
I have had previous with them in my old job, and any walk around the hills of Strathbraan shows a narrow biodiversity and near mono-culture in existence. Alongside multiple larsen cages, random feed in trays on moorland (not grit) etc.
One of the estates local to me & somewhere I cycle through regularly has been given the "Wildlife Estates Scotland" award for recognising its wildlife & conservation efforts. It has also been awarded the "Golden Plover Award" for integrated & sustainable upland management. The owner of the estate also happened to be the chairman of the WES project at the time he awarded himself the award. The estate owner has also been bestowed an OBE for services to wildlife conservation in Scotland.
He has effectively excluded most members of the public from the estate by closing access to the small car park which lies on land within the estate but owned by the local water authority. The justification for doing this was that he was providing a new more suitable car park nearby. This he did, but there was a new and previously unmentioned permit system in place. There were 12 annual permits available, just 12 & I have never seen any cars there. The car park he supplied; the last time I looked was full of plant machinery & had been closed to the public. There is no impediment to walkers or cyclists but it's had the desired effect that very few people now venture there on foot.
I'm no expert on these matters but it looks to me that a lot of the estate along with the adjoining estates are run as driven shooting estates. There are well maintained butts all over the estate. The whole place is tidy & well kept but that is where the good news ends. The habitat is heather & Muirburn.
There's a remote area that my wife & I cycle through, my wife calls it the valley of death. There were a variety of bird & animal carcasses in varying states of decomposition littering the ground over a wide area. I had to ride round them there were so many. There are traps for mustelids everywhere, Larsen bird traps not so frequent but still plenty of them. Dead hares and rabbits used to be a frequent sight but I think both of these populations have been all but eradicated.
I had a lengthy conversation with the local BTO ranger (British Trust for Ornithology) a few months ago. He is licenced to ring certain species of wild birds, monitor the population & habitat. I brought the subject of the estate in question up & I could see his demeanour changing. He said "there's no good news". He has personally witnessed wildlife crime taking place there. This was witnessed by him & an accompanying colleague. The gamekeeper shot an owl about 400m from where the were stood. The carcass was concealed but the local wildlife crimes officer later located this. They were threaten with physical violence & prosecution for "trespass" by the gamekeeprs at the site of the crime.
It's honestly heartbreaking that this is going on in plain sight. It looks to me like landowners can pretty much do whatever they want when it comes to wildlife persecution & suffer zero concequences. There's simply no accountability to anyone else for their actions.
I'm with TJ's views on this. It's a criminal conspiracy of epic proportions hidden in plain sight.
Is there information on how many pheasants a raptor may take through a year?
It can't be more than a days shoot which seems to average 600kills and this is a small shooting range, sorry estate. The cost to an estate of "feeding" a raptor must be £10s per year. Yet days shoot costs £100s.
As said earlier I'm compromised as I take pheasants from the shoot that would go into landfill. Probably half a dozen per week through the season plus grouse and regularly have to decline politely when 2 dozen birds turn up. Still hate the whole industry though
Some chunky proposals over estate ownership, responsibility and tax avoidance:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/04/big-scottish-landowners-could-face-fines-nature-climate-failings
Ok, finally some movement on this. Time for some Singletrack voices to be added to the debate..?
https://consult.gov.scot/environment-forestry/wildlife-management-in-scotland/
Thanks for the link, a job for this evening.
Bump.
It's mostly a questionnaire to complete, with the various areas addressed in turn from Licences, muirburn, trapping etc., mainly yes/no answers with room to comment. If everything in this was enacted, we would be making a significant step towards clipping the wings of the driven shooting industry. Although I'd still like to go further.
I've no objection to 'hunting' for food with firearms; it's the slaughter of farmed birds (pheasants, partridges, grouse) and everything that spins outwards from that which I strongly object to. Plus the obscene tax breaks and twisted agricultural support that are still in place.
