I think pheasants now account for something like 20-25% of the entire UK bird breeding population.
Yup thats the best estimates although it does vary through the year since very few survive in the wild and hence they peak after the yearly release of targets and before they commit suicide in various ways. I was in the lake district a few weeks back and did like seeing the signs on the roads warning about pheasants. Perhaps if they had to cover the costs of the insurance claims they might think twice about releasing them.
That its an estimate is rather problematic and shows how lightly treated the "sport" is. Given pheasants feeding habits they are likely to have a rather negative impact on the overall ecosystem even if someone plants a couple of extra targets for them to hide in.
I am not opposed to hunting/shooting as such although personally I prefer to stick to using a camera to get the shots but increasingly the country "sports" do seem to be tilting it a tad to far in the "sportspersons" favour regardless of what needs killing to help those odds.
My parents used to live in an area where pheasants were reared. Every year the pheasants would be released and loads of them seen in the garden. None survived the winter. central Scotland
@Poly, if the pheasant breeders/hatcheries took any notice of socking density there wouldn’t be the need to over produce in the numbers they do. It’s costs under £15 to raise a pheasant from egg to release in 22weeks. Most of that is food. Vet care, record keeping, biosecurity are all sacrificed.
It’s not pretty, and it’s mostly out of sight.
I'm sure there are examples of bad practice around and it's only small estates I've had exposure to where things are perhaps not so bad. But like all farmers (which is what they are) usually they have a pretty financially optimised model - add more birds to the shed and they start getting sick/stop growing/are unable to fly/die/need vets, add fewer and you get less to shoot at (and potentially have to pay more to keep them warm). The same is true for those £2.50 chickens (which take more food to grow really quickly), have an abattoir, plucking, and packing cost, and shipping to the supermarket + any margin they are making... how much is the farmer getting? <£2 and he wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't profitable so his costs are probably <£1.50... so 1/10th of the cost of your pheasant for something that's kept for 1/4 of the time. Are you still sure the chicken has a life of luxury?
. Every year the pheasants would be released and loads of them seen in the garden. None survived the winter. central Scotland
At six weeks they are put in release pens in woods. Those pens are just temporary, you can't contain them once they can fly. They are then free to wander, hopefully by feeding them and creating a good environment they stay close. Shooting season finishes on the 1st of February so I doubt none survived the winter, my dad always had some leftover come the spring which would then breed.
I can only go on what I and they saw. release pens were a hundred yards away. Either that shoot was very efficient at killing them or they died of the winter because by feb none were seen
Are you still sure the chicken has a life of luxury?
On balance I get where you're coming from, who wouldn't want the chance to escape...But I think the "free range" aspect of pheasants is far from the actuality. I'm not saying don't eat it, but at least don't kid yourself about it's provenance.
Hopefully life will have settled down come spring, then I'll take you for a wander/bike ride and we can play spot the pheasant. You can bring the pies.
Salperton Park a mixed pheasant and partridge shoot is under investigation after a red kite was found shot on the estate with such serious injuries that it must have been shot where it was found.
this was in March when the country was in lockdown that the shooting happened. Of course the omerta means no one has been prosecuted
this is why we need vicarious liability and licensing
Just to show that at least some of the partidge and pheasant shoots are part of the criminal conspiracy
Steven lolz at that
There’s been a lot of Kites killed by poisoning & shooting in North Yorkshire over the years. Nidderdales like the Bermuda Triangle of the raptor world.
Sickening.
One of the things that I’ve never understood (ok, I have it’s vested interests at stake) is why the economic impact of the environmental damage caused by shooting estates has not been added to the potential economic impact of sustainable tourism in Scotland.
Already today sustainable tourism brings in far more money (1billion +) compared to the income from shooting estates (10s million). If you were to factor in the environmental cost I suspect we would see a deficit or net cost to Scotland’s economic well-being.
There’s been a lot of Kites killed by poisoning & shooting in North Yorkshire over the years.
That is sickening. I’ve been lucky enough to see red kites fly over my house and I’m on the edge of Aberdeen.
The thing is that there is a strong cultural thing going on which requires an particular educational approach. Someone I know is a very committed social activist but because they grew up in the country are convinced that raptors and badgers are vermin.
One of the things that I’ve never understood (ok, I have it’s vested interests at stake) is why the economic impact of the environmental damage caused by shooting estates has not been added to the potential economic impact of sustainable tourism in Scotland.
I suspect it’s probably hard to quantify an economic comparison, but there must be stuff out there like Knepp/the River Otter beavers to give an idea of sustainable tourism incomes?
If anyone would genuinely like to know more about how driven shooting benefits the rural economy and offsets the biodiversity loss caused by modern agriculture, I’d be happy to tell you via DM and illustrate with pictures.
I’d happily trade places with one of my pheasants or partridges over any other animal in the U.K. food chain. My job literally relies on them being happy enough with their environment not to want to wander off.
We rent our shoot from two land owners and keep over 100 acres of cover crops from ending up as intensive sheep, dairy forage or arable and have implemented a 12 year forestry plan to rescue over 700 acres of neglected and under-thinned woodland. Our winter feeding benefits over-wintering song birds who would otherwise starve in the barren fields of grass, winter cereals and over-flailed hedgerows.
We reduce the populations of common mesopredators like foxes and crows to less than half of the baseline population during the spring and summer- benefiting the hares and ground nesting birds and wildfowl.
We provide a vital rural community to over 100 different people during the shooting season and with coppicing and work parties and bbq’s and breakfasts- through the spring and summer as well.
The habitat that holds game is good for wildlife too- that’s the crux. Every acre preserved and managed for pheasants and partridges is an acre kept out of the clutches of farmers or commercial foresters. They wanted to put a spring cereal crop back to silage grass this year so we rented it off them instead and have planted it with wild bird mix. That’s a great analogy for the entire industry.
It’s not all good- poor practice at release sites can damage localised areas but that’s like saying a new straw barn , poly tunnel of veg or a beef shed damages native scrub- utterly meaningless in isolation 🤷🏻♂️
If you want some science around the issue, check out these guys on Twitter https://twitter.com/pec_exeter?s=21
Feeding my pheasants this morning, I saw probably 50 individual raptors including a hen sparrowhawk and a kestrel. We have upwards of 70 kites here during silaging as well as multiple pairs of resident buzzards and kites. Literally dozens of tawny owls, 6 pairs of barn owls, kestrels, sparrowhawks, long eared owls, little owls, visits from the local town’s pair of perigrine’s, Ravens and an occasional Merlin and Hobby passing through.
We factor in buzzard kills at around 150-200 poults and have buzzard and kites nesting IN release pens. With adequate habitat provision- losses are minimised.
Is there bad practice in the industry- yes of course but compared to “U.K. farming inc” it’s practically saintly.
I’ve spent enough time arguing with pedants on forums and Twitter over the years to not want to be arsed to openly engage with any of the inevitable “yeah buts” this post is bound to bring so don’t even bother. If you genuinely want to know more then message me.
Shooting leases aren’t that hard to come by.
I could get a team of people together tomorrow to invest in a new shoot- so why not do the same for “nature”?
If you think the industry is not delivering for wildlife, club together and rent yourself an estate. I’d love to see someone produce the net benefits we do without the cash generated by our harvest of game.
I’d love to be a wildlife ranger and do all the cool conservation work I get to do, without all the mundane and relentless game rearing and feeding. But the jobs and the wages aren’t there: because taking land out of food production for wildlife is cripplingly expensive.
Huge news coming out of Wales
Is a house of cards about to tumble on trail hunting?
Interesting piece on Farming Today this morning about wildlife crime increasing during lockdown - including a satellite tag for a golden eagle found wrapped in lead in a river!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011rz7
Some positive news about beavers too.
https://www.gov.scot/news/protecting-scotlands-beaver-population/
And I've got some literally across the A9 from our house now, the trees they are in are visible from our garden. I'm rather happy about that.
https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/news/argaty-red-kites-granted-beaver-translocation-licence/
written summary in the Guardian
I will wait for the apologists to announce how its all mistaken.
Love that post from crosshair - the usual shooters totally bogus justifications. Yes partidge and pheasant shooting is not as damaging as driven grouse moors but nothing he says gets away from the proven killings of raptors on grouse moors, of the environmental damage grouse moors do, of the damage releasing non native birds does nor the illegality of the vast majority of the predator trapping
If you think the industry is not delivering for wildlife, club together and rent yourself an estate. I’d love to see someone produce the net benefits we do without the cash generated by our harvest of game.
Been done. Langholm moor.
there is zero conservation value in shooting birds. Its well known and well proven
Yes partidge and pheasant shooting is not as damaging as driven grouse moors
Probably. The massive increase in numbers really does need studying properly to see how it impacts invertebrates in particular.
Been done. Langholm moor.
Just one of many. RSPB reserves, the various Wildlife trusts, John Muir trust, NT and so on.
I can smell the reek from the muir burns in my house today. Huge burns on the Angus glens this last couple of dry days.
If you think the industry is not delivering for wildlife, club together and rent yourself an estate. I’d love to see someone produce the net benefits we do without the cash generated by our harvest of game
It's not either or though - it's taking a balanced approach that will vary from location to location.
I know a few estates around Loch Tay and Lyon who now take far more income from micro and medium hydro than they ever do from game shoots. Same again with holiday cottages for the hillwalkers or cyclists.
It also comes down to my really comments about how we value (and therefore financially support) the land. Do we value it only for game, and all our efforts and income derived from that. Or do we as a nation subsidise flood prevention by beavers, biodiversity and carbon capture of moors, recreation and climate adaptation in our forests, (etc). We should then support the landowner to make this happen financially and culturally.*
*Parkswatch make a good point recently about the Royal fam having degraded thier estate over generations, now taking state aid and claiming for 'greening' of a problem they caused and earned money out of...but in my view the long game and overall benefits outweigh the frustration of funding that change.
There's some excellent examples of how to that have been around for many years.
Edit: case study: Kilmalieu in Ardgour. Estate shooting rights £40k per annum rent. Hydro schemes x2 £400k per annum, outdoor centre turnover £340k per annum and 6 staff, holiday cottages £35k and a part time job. Even if the shooting rights rent is quadrupled in income (it's not), it only employs one part time lead factor and one part time ghillie, a few seasonal for the cull.
Probably. The massive increase in numbers really does need studying properly to see how it impacts invertebrates in particular.
No idea about this but the point about woodland / windbreaks instead of intensive agriculture is a real one. Its the only fair point in that otherwise pure nonsense post
I do believe its important to keep an eye on the nuances and the secondary effects. Not all shooting is the same
its the driven grouse moors that cause the real ecological damage and where all the raptors are killed and where all the illegal trapping of predators occurs
And lets just be clear - illegal killing of raptors is widespread on driven grouse moors, is in every area where there are grouse moors and is accepted practice in the industry.
Spent some time in Swaledale - it was very noticeable the complete lack of bird life of any variety, particularly the rabbit carcasses everywhere because of the lack of predators ‘ carrion feeders. It was an ecological desert.
I’m now lucky enough to live next to a nature reserve on Mull and there is no local bird shooting - the number of raptor/carrion species I can spot from my window is remarkable having moved from Speyside. We have Sparrowhawks, Kestrel and Buzzards, a pair of noisy Ravens nests in the woods, plus Hooded and Carrion Crows. A big factor are the eagles on the island which is a big tourism draw for everyone. Not just a few tweed clad, Range Rover drivers who drive like tossers on tiny roads, will quite happily shoot over someone’s house raining lead shot on the tiles, retire for a liquid lunch and come back ruddy-faced and do it again in the afternoon.
Eagles and otters on Mull bring an estimated 5 million a year onto the island in wildlife tourism - its actually reaching a point where its almost unsustainable the numbers of folk trying to see otters and disturbing them!
It is fabulous to see all the eagles tho - recently spent 3 days on the island and saw 9 eagles without even looking for them
compare that to the pair of golden eagles I saw in the angus glens. they were killed a couple of months later
its the driven grouse moors that cause the real ecological damage
Whilst they do cause massive ecological damage I think fundamentally it comes down to how large and aggressive any shoot is run which can also apply to some pheasant shoots. Its a massive tilting off the ecosystem.
A small family/group shoot could well be a benefit but once they get commercial and so need to start making profits then I suspect the benefits are soon outweighed.
where all the raptors are killed and where all the illegal trapping of predators occurs
Sadly not true. Whilst they are definitely high on the list of "mysterious disappearances" its not exactly unknown on the pheasant shoots either. Its less visible though since the raptors are less likely to be tagged compared to the harriers and eagles and so you dont have the "unexpected failure" map giving the game away.
Fair enough dissonance - I really was just trying to get away from " all shooting baaaad" and to remember nuance with this
Where my parents used to live was a small pheasant shoot. they planted and maintained tree cover.
Deer need to be culled.
Driven grouse moors are indefensible
. Its not all purely black and white
I'm still trying to make sense of this, having been a casual birdwatcher all my life and never having seen 50 raptors in a week, never mind a morning:
Feeding my pheasants this morning, I saw probably 50 individual raptors including a hen sparrowhawk and a kestrel.
So, not counting kestrels or sparrowhawks we have 48 more raptors, but he rules out:
We have upwards of 70 kites here during silaging as well as multiple pairs of resident buzzards and kites. Literally dozens of tawny owls, 6 pairs of barn owls, kestrels, sparrowhawks, long eared owls, little owls, visits from the local town’s pair of perigrine’s, Ravens and an occasional Merlin and Hobby passing through.
What were these other 48 raptors? Ospreys? 😀
Deer need to be culled.
Deer are also a tricky case. Since some estates deliberately do their best to boost the numbers beyond the natural carrying capability in order to ensure that their clients get to shoot something.
Plus there is the rabid opposition to reintroducing natural predators which would also help control their numbers.
That twitter link from Crosshair which is allegedly "science"
The posts are made by a Jo Madden, apparently linked in some way to Exeter University. Can anyone prove that's a real link, google was throwing up a Joanne/Joah Madden in the psychology department.
The posts are made by a Jo Madden, apparently linked in some way to Exeter University. Can anyone prove that’s a real link, google was throwing up a Joanne/Joah Madden in the psychology department.
"Joah Madden is an Associate Professor in the School of Psychology, working in the Centre for Research in Animal Behaviour" from here: Dr Joah Madden
Cheers Doug, that looks more credible. His website looks like it was built by me whilst drunk.
Good news from the National Trust
I’ve been lucky enough to see red kites fly over my house and I’m on the edge of Aberdeen.
Walking down my road last week there was a red kite circling over the houses just down from where I live. My late g/f used to get quite excited if she saw it (almost certainly the same bird) flying over the gardens across the road from me.
They’re still not very common around these parts yet, it’s taken them some time to spread across from Berkshire and Oxfordshire where they were part of the reintroduction, and native birds from Wales are now spreading across the Severn because there’s so many of them over there now. I’ve seen one around Bath, and around the Avebury area.
Ravens are more common, I regularly see them around where I work in Westbury, and there’s a lot of open countryside around the estate, and I’ve seen a kite around there as well.
There’s a pair of Peregrines about too, haven’t seen them lately, but I’m pretty sure they’re about, judging by the carcasses they’ve left in the storage area I look after - not foxes, I’d see them about and we have a palisade security fence all round, and one kill took place in daylight, I think while I was having my lunch, because the dead bird was lying in the open between two rows of cars where I’d been earlier, missing it’s head, and with fresh blood around it.
The next day the remains were left on the roof of a car, a few bones and feathers!
Some really good news - Woodland Trust expanding hugely the area they own at Sheildaig. I am rather jealous of my old boss who is leading this project, interesting times. Note the comments about access for walkers and similar tourism.
I would like to know how much the Sheildaig Sea Eagle, the otters, the goats and more are worth in attracting tourism to the area... Perhaps we may see a reforested Torridon?
https://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/2021/12/thinking_big_-_woodland_trust_buy_highland_estate-72960
Compare: Ben Sheildaig estate managed without too many deer or sheep
With most of Couldoran Estate they just bought:
Superb, it genuinely took a double take (on my phone) for me to realise that first photo wasnt an over romanticized painting.
Can't see first picture, got a link?
Wildlife tourism can be worth a lot. I have heard 5 million for Mull. Shooting is not a big money earner.
Wildlife tourism can be worth a lot.
Agreed. And the clearer these financial benefits are, the more folk are tempted to make a change.
What it doesn't address are the cultural issues around land ownership and land management. That may be harder to challenge.
Interesting point about red deer, we have a small herd that lives on the nature reserve next to us - they’re starting to spend more time hanging around the house, raiding the bird feeders and nibbling the plants. Talking to a local and the plunge in the price of venison means there’s no interest in shooting them - price dropped to 90p/kilo for a carcass and has only back up to £1.20 - the effort of getting up into the hill to drag back a carcass doesn’t make it worth it for the shooters. I hope for the deer’s sake we don’t have too hard a winter as it’s bad enough to walk into the kitchen in the morning and have 12 pairs of eyes staring back waiting for the carrots…
Shooting is not a big money earner.
Please , at least try to stay realistic.
Shooting is a huge money earner and you know it.
Shooting is a huge money earner and you know it.
It is a money earner.
I think though we're starting to see other earning possibilities, possibly ones which change how land is valued and monetised. We need to change who owns the land or/and how we support those landowners with a just transition to new ways of earning and valuing land.
I went to go look at the figures on income.
Now I don't think this is "either or", we can have these incomes along side each other.
I also note reports around how this income could change, notably challenging low salaries in the shooting estates.
I'm struggling to find information on the power generation income compared to wildlife tourism or shooting income.
I also note that all the reports I find written by the shooting industry conflate Scottish income and UK wide tax/income/statistics, and seem to get published in papers with rounded up figures that include agricultural subsidies, cottage rentals which are not related to the shooting etc - anything to suggest the industry is bigger than it is.
Now I don’t think this is “either or”, we can have these incomes along side each other.
Pretty much where I'm at.
Its not that hunting cant exist, it just needs to change to one where it doesnt turn the landscape into a single purpose environment. As is the case for many landscapes where hunting is prevalent around world.
On that topic, are there many other examples where large areas are managed so extensively in order to maximize the numbers of just 1 or 2 species for hunting?
That figure from Nature Scot for Field Sports is dramatically different to what Ive seen punted out by Scottish Hunting bodies.
