There’s a major avian flu outbreak across the country but they’re still allowed to release captive bred birds because…🙁
You think that shoots are releasing captive bred Grouse?
Completed
Arable, Sheep farming, Forestry and Grouse moors are all mono cultures. And environmentally all really harmful in different ways.
In Wales Curlews and Peewits are almost extinct. The Pennines Grouse moors have a a lot of these species even though it's not perfect Peewit habitat. In part that's due to Keepers eliminating scavenger/predators. When the Environment gets so degraded previously minor factors can tip the balance.
You think that shoots are releasing captive bred Grouse?
I’ll defy you to go onto many a ‘grouse moor’ to find grouse because there aren’t any. I used to live on an estate in Moray at the northern edge of the Cairngorms and would spend hours at a time walking with my dog and you’d maybe raise a couple of pairs. It was even worse if you went south into the National Park, areas managed by Crown Estates, completely devoid of anything living apart from a few scraggy sheep.
Completed that survey too.
PSA:
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Three years in the making, Riverwoods is a feature-length documentary narrated by Peter Capaldi that tells the compelling story of a barely believable relationship between fish and forest.
Why not get around the TV with family and friends and learn why…
The salmon need the forest. The forest needs the salmon. And Scotland needs them both.
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Just a reminder the consultation on grouse moor licensing is still on. thew shooters lobby have as expected a coordinated response to this thats basically " Its no fair". The more people that sign in favour of licensing the sooner we put this criminal conspiracy out of business
Thanks, submitted
I found myself chatting to a couple of Canadian hunters last week.
They did not have a good view of UK hunting practices, and they didnt even get onto Raptor poisoning. The whole business of managing whole landscapes to breed game thats them forced into a firing line seemed alien, and frankly a bit disgusting. Could just be an anomaly and ive always viewed some of the hunting practices in North America in a better like than stuff like driven shoots anyway, so not sure how much my bias is involved.
There also seems to be a very high proportion of "for the pot only" hunting. Im nit actually sure how much that gets shot in the UK makes it to the pot?
Im nit actually sure how much that gets shot in the UK makes it to the pot?
Grouse and deer do end up mainly on the food table. Who's table is a thornier issue I think. Again, USA and Canada game seems (anecdotally) to fill a lot more diverse freezers...
The whole business of managing whole landscapes to breed game thats them forced into a firing line seemed alien, and frankly a bit disgusting.
I used to go shooting a lot. Mainly clays and targets, but I would get the occasional rabbit, and a few foxes have met their end because of me. And it all felt fine.
I was invited to go to a Pheasant shoot, by a wealthy Landowner. As above, I was disgusted by the idiots there who were having a great time shooting a pheasant that was walking 10 feet in front of them. There was no sport involved with it at all, it was mass murder. and the worst of it was the pheasant were not even taken home by the shooters. It was toward the end of the season, and the Shoot couldnt even sell them to the Butchers. They were put in a pile and burnt. This, I suspect is the same on Grouse moors, though I suspect the sporting element is a bit more, but even so, they are hushered toward the shooter, so hardly a difficult shot. Even though `i still shoot occasionally, i think it is morally wrong, and any cash made could easily be made another way without the need to ruin vast tanches of land for 2 months of shooting.
Again, USA and Canada game seems (anecdotally) to fill a lot more diverse freezers…
In the case of the Canadians I spoke too, they didn't actually seem to "take" much despite it being a big part if their identity. But everything theyvdid take went to stock up the family freezer.
I found myself chatting to a couple of Canadian hunters last week.
Bizarre.
If I was hunting Canadians I wouldn't be in Scotland.
I was at least actually in Canada.
Just a reminder the consultation on grouse moor licensing is still on. thew shooters lobby have as expected a coordinated response to this thats basically ” Its no fair”. The more people that sign in favour of licensing the sooner we put this criminal conspiracy out of business
Completed, many thanks for the link.
Consultation response submitted. Get your responses in.
Form submitted here too.
Nice to see the law is being used and licenses revoked.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-64863534
Article mentions that this is the fifth estate in Scotland to have its general license revoked.
Yes; baby steps but at least they're in the right direction.
Meantime, these last couple of days have been really smoky here in Angus, as the estates furiously burn their heather off. There's been a pall of brown smoke over 20 miles long hanging over Strathmore, highlighted by still air and blue skies. When are we going to finally ban this damaging, arcane activity..?
Good first step.
Now can they do the same to the Glen Almond estates...
Oh what a shame. they should have stopped being criminals then
good to see the bill finally getting to parliament. Its not that radical. If they don't kill raptors and follow the guidance on muirburn ( which they should have been doing anyway) they will be fine
I'm sure Fergus Ewing is apoplectic.
The field sports industry is a bit like trump supporters, if you have annoyed them then you must be doing something right.
Mar lodge - IIRC the sale to the NTS included a covenant that it was managed as a sporting estate still. So it shows what can be done. IIRC they now do walk up grouse shooting not driven - so kills are in small numbers not huge and thus the land does not have to be a monoculture grouse farm
Curious what habitat they claim to be preserving with muirburn (other than grouse habitat, obviously).
Is this a sledgehammer to the industry, or will it just result in reduced bags? I don't know how shooting is 'paid' for, per day out? per head grouse? If people want a day out shooting will they just give up if the prey becomes somewhat more scarce?
If people want a day out shooting will they just give up if the prey becomes somewhat more scarce?
That is the general argument of the field sports industry.
"Who ever heard of a deer forest with trees?" being a quote from the Caledonia book from a gamekeeper speaking about it.
I do think there is a balance - Mar Lodge is a good (yet imperfect, as they all are) example of that balance.
Our challenge is how we get from the culture and industry we have now to a culture and industry (livelihoods) which values nature alongside the field sports, rather than the affected/odd version they currently claim is nature.
I don't think it will actually make a huge difference to well managed grouse shoots that stay within the law. The ones in the criminal conspiracy will be put out of business. They will still be allowed muirburn - just will have to reduce the amount of it ad there will be oversight. Its not like grouse shooting is being banned or muirburn is banned
Over time it should improve land management and hopefully put a few of them out of business
They will still be allowed muirburn – just will have to reduce the amount of it ad there will be oversight.
With Nature Scot having lost 60%+ of its budget over the last few years, I wonder if there are enough people to actually undertake oversight. If a ranger/Nature Scot staff member pops in, the moment their back is turned the fire 'accidentally spreads from a rogue gust of wind' and burns it all anyway...
Then the estate can have its license revoked. vicarious liability - I think
“Who ever heard of a deer forest with trees?” being a quote from the Caledonia book from a gamekeeper speaking about it.
A very interesting bit in 'The book of Trespass' tells how the english population were foragers/hunters etc in the forests, until William the conqueror installed his 'landowners', who ,to make money selling deer meat, cut rides through the forests and banned the 'peasants' from foraging,so they could hunt more easily. So the people had to find other source of food/shelter so had to work for a landowner.
My worry is that if the grouse moors get shut down, the shooters will move down south, and takeover the remainder of the woods for more shoots
there is a consultation document to gather folks views on the proposed scheme
https://yourviews.parliament.scot/raine/wildlife-management-and-muirburn-scotland-bill/
One of the worst estates for being a barren grouse moor, in my experience, has been bought out by a conservation group.
There's a lot of bullshit bingo in the press release there - what does "the largest debt transaction on nature-based finance in the UK" mean?
You will never get rid of these awful things.
Too many rich and powerful people own them or enjoy the "sport" and pay a small fortune to do so.
How many do the Royals own and how many of them shoot?
Its slowly changing in Scotland and the grouse moor licensing will put some out of business no doubt - because they will not stop their criminal activity
Quite a few shooting estates no longer are such
One of the worst estates for being a barren grouse moor, in my experience, has been bought out by a conservation group.
That is interesting as Buccleuch also sold of a large part of Langholm Moor in the community buyout. https://www.langholminitiative.org.uk/langholm-moor
Of course, Buccleuch still has a LOT of shooting land, but very interesting that they are also not adverse to selling it off for non shooting purposes.
Of course, Buccleuch still has a LOT of shooting land, but very interesting that they are also not adverse to selling it off for non shooting purposes.
I have said a few times on this thread that we have to find alternative sources of income and employment alongside the cultural/attitudinal changes.
With my optimistic hat on I wonder how many bigger landowners will be seeing the changes coming, and opportunities a few enterprising charities/investors have implemented, and start to change how they view their land management and ownership....Is the the breath of change starting to blow?
I have said a few times on this thread that we have to find alternative sources of income and employment alongside the cultural/attitudinal changes.
There's a certain amount of eco-tourism? I think some former shooting estates have done OK out of this, and then there's Knepp?
Wildlife tourism is worth 5 million a year to the island of mull. grouse shooting brings little money in to the local economy - most of it stays on the estates
I wish I could find a link to the recent Nature Scotland/ Cairngorm NP research which demonstrated that outdoor sports alone, just within the National Park land area, are now worth more to the Scottish economy than all of the shooting across the whole of the country combined.
So, put simply, we could ban all driven shooting and nudge the landowners to adapt to a new world order where they have to encourage sports, eco-tourism and recreational activities across their land. Licence local hunting initiatives, as most civilised countries do. And the Americans.
We can then make ourselves into a healthier and wealthier country. It's not rocket science...
Wildlife tourism is worth 5 million a year to the island of mull. grouse shooting brings little money in to the local economy – most of it stays on the estates
I was on Isle of Luing at the weekend - even a tiny place like that had a busy visitors centre and cafe, and they said it was a constant stream of people most days through the season unless the weather was foul. Everyone was buying coffee, food, beer, books, ferry tickets of course. The food was local langousitine or lobster, beef from the island, and they reckoned that 30%+ of the veggie were frim the island. They were answering questions about wildlife tours and more and sharing local artists work.
It *seemed* a cracking income to the islanders....
Managed grouse moors tend to benefit a lot more to the fauna and biodiversity than just bringing in rich people to contribute to the economy. This covers it somewhat -
As with everything that's controversial or a hot topic, it's best to research things for yourself from an abject view point where you try to possess no feelings for either side of the board and come to a conclusion from researching the topics. I hold the opinion that if things aren't broken don't fix them. We've been doing grouse shooting for some time now and it does have its benefits on the ecosystem, but it also has negative ones particularly around releasing trapped carbon from the peat. As with everything there is always trade offs, however, the alternative suggestions we often see to "re-wild" places don't get reported on when they've been a massive failure with only specific species of fauna growing there because deer have no natural predators and eat all the saplings and new tree shoots so only the fastest growing thrive, as one example.
Do I agree with the hoity toity types shooting game birds? Well if they're not gonna do it here they're gonna do it elsewhere, and managing the uplands helps as said with biodiversity, the UK has lost almost half of it's biodiversity since the 1970's due to invasive farming practices, development, insect die off, predators not kept in check etc and it's sad. Anything which has a knock on effect and benefits a larger portion of wildlife to me is a good thing, even if its means big rich people shoot tons of birds, at least on good shoots most end up in the food chain, the few who dump the excess can't be a name for all shoots.
