Slight hijack, but a Strava acquaintance was riding near Strathbraan on estate landy tracks. He pass a gamekeeper who apparently 'got shirty'.
Assuming it's a grouse moor, what is reasonable/responsible access behaviour suring shooting season?
I remember phoning a few estates during deer stalking season several years ago, they weren't even remotely interested in someone passing by on an estate track (I think their words were "you can't stalk from a landrover" 😁 )
Basically its the usual - you can access so long as you are not being a dick! Being asked to alter your route may be reasonable but being told " get off my land" is not.
I rode right thru the middle of a shoot once - I was politely asked to please move over the brow of the hill asap I had stopped to check my map) - a reasonable request I complied with
guidance on the MCofS site probably.
Strathbraan are a particularly vile bunch with a terrible record on raptor persecution and access issues
The only thing I can find is on the ramblers site which says:
Various provisions ensure that access rights do not interfere with other sporting activities while the Minister made it clear that these sections did not apply to areas like pheasant woods and grouse moors.
so from that then there is no access issue on grouse moors unlike deer stalking which is probably why I cannot see anything on grouse moors on the MCofS site
He was probably grumpy because he knows people utilising access rights keep on finding dead raptors
Random aside - anyone know of a map (or OS overlay) to easily determine the specific estate which owns the land at an exact spot? Doing lots of work organising groups doing expeds at the moment across the entire Highland, Moray and some of Argyll and an easy way (beyond just knowing) which estate is relevant would be great. It's not always obvious.
The best guide I ever saw was "Heading for the Scottish Hills" but that's well out of date now. Land ownership in Scotland is clouded in mystery anyway and I don't think there is an accurate record anywhere. If you can find that book, then most of the estate boundaries will still be right, it's just that the contact details will have changed.
Edit: there's now an online version
https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/practical-guide-all/heading-scottish-hills
Slight hijack, but a Strava acquaintance was riding near Strathbraan on estate landy tracks. He pass a gamekeeper who apparently ‘got shirty’.
Which Strathbraan/Strathbran? The one between Amulree and Dunkeld I've some history with...
Strathbraan is an area which has a few estates / grouse moors IIRC
edit - thats not quite what you were asking - Doh!
Same bunch of shits in Strathbraan
Ian Thomson, Head of Investigations at RSPB Scotland has just tweeted the following:
‘The dead peregrine was found during a police/SSPCA follow-up to incidents of cage trap abuse on the same estate – eg. this LE Owl had been illegally held in a trap, in pouring rain, for >24hrs. IMO there is no legitimate reason for a grouse moor be using crow traps in October…‘
Out of control criminal cons[piracy.
Which Strathbraan/Strathbran? The one between Amulree and Dunkeld I’ve some history with…
Glen Almond actually, just north of Auchnafree Hill
He was probably grumpy because he knows people utilising access rights keep on finding dead raptors
Or might take a photo of a gamekeeper deciding to exercise their eagle owl by tying it to a perch and sitting in the heather nearby.
Lolz
Matt – there does not seem to be any more info on those 5 eagles
Speaking of missing eagles. A tag which mysteriously failed back in 2012 has been found in Loch an t-Seillich.
Whilst I am sure there is an innocent explanation, as with the one where the eagle got annoyed with a tag so took it off and wrapped it in a lead sheet before throwing it in a river, currently the police dont seem able to think of it and so have sent their diving team to see if there is anything else of interest in there.
Consultation on the management plan for the cairngorm national park. NO specific mention of raptor persecution but a place to add it in your comments
https://cairngormsviews.commonplace.is/
Packham has had and arson attack on his house - just the latest in a long line of attacks on him.
Criminal conspiracy again.
tjagain
Full Member
Packham has had and arson attack on his house – just the latest in a long line of attacks on him.
I saw that as well , bonkers that people are going that far to intimidate. The BBC interview revealed all of the dead animals he's had left on his property.. so do you think this is rich toffy getting his lackies to go and make him feel uncomfortable?
Nope
It’s idiots pure and simple.
More likely to be working class shooters who , quite frankly, hate his guts.
Riiiight
He has clearly been attacked by fox hunters in the past. Packham is hated right across the "industry"
the whole shooting / hunting "industry" of all types is a huge criminal conspiracy
Criminal activity widespread in every sector of hunting and shooting. A criminal conspiracy is the only way to describe it.
As an aside, he did post a link this morning to vote on an AGM matter for the National Trust, to stop trail hunting on NT land. You need you NT number to vote.
link is here and it is voting for the motion; https://secure.cesvotes.com/V3-1-0/nt21/en/login?bbp=30978&x=-1&fbclid=IwAR14ibOETMXNUXcbYCSlbCNo9LgGkhhBenUaaLj9Bh-u-u62n9M8e9wk2fk
As an aside, he did post a link this morning to vote on an AGM matter for the National Trust, to stop trail hunting on NT land. You need you NT number to vote.
link is here and it is voting for the motion; https://secure.cesvotes.com/V3-1-0/nt21/en/login?bbp=30978&x=-1&fbclid=IwAR14ibOETMXNUXcbYCSlbCNo9LgGkhhBenUaaLj9Bh-u-u62n9M8e9wk2fk
/blockquote>As a total aide, if you're voting in the NT AGM there is a group called Restore Trust who are anti-woke/pro-gammon - I couldn't possibly suggest that having a look at their website would be a guide how not to vote.
Riiiight
He has clearly been attacked by fox hunters in the past. Packham is hated right across the “industry”
the whole shooting / hunting “industry” of all types is a huge criminal conspiracy
Criminal activity widespread in every sector of hunting and shooting. A criminal conspiracy is the only way to describe it.
No, I'd say Brads is spot on. You're just being daft. As for criminal activity in shooting (as distinct from hunting) proof please or I call BS.
More likely to be working class shooters who , quite frankly, hate his guts
What makes you say working class? A genuine question.
Because most driven bird shooters are exactly that, working class.
Who cares what class they are - its a huge criminal conspiracy.
Squirrelking
raptor killings - all evidenced and happens in every area of the UK where there are grouse moors. 1/3 of all eagles in scotland end their lives prematurely on grouse moors
Illegal trapping of mustelids - yes they are allowed to trap but there is no way on earth the traps are checked regularly enough
larsen traps for raptors again on grouse moors
Possession of illegal poisons
Ayttack on individuals both online and physically
Overuse of Muirburn
do I really need to put up a list of every incident? I suggest you read the Werrity report and the data from the raptor study group
How about those two eagle tags found wrapped in lead and chucked in lochs
Thats the criminal activity
the conspiracy comes from the fact that no one ever breaks the silence ( or hardly ever) thats what turns it into a criminal conspiracy. Everyone knows these crimes are commonplace on grouse moors but getting thru the omerta is virtually impossible
Because most driven bird shooters are exactly that, working class.
That is news to me.
Have you a source/research on that you can share?
A lifetime of shooting is all the source I have.
The vast majority of driven bird syndicates are small farm pheasant shoots populated by painter and decorators and taxi drivers ,council bin men etc.
Large estate pheasant syndicates tend to be local business owners, undertakers, joinery firm owners , scrap metal dealers etc. There are far less of these types than the smaller farm ones and they usually try and have partridge days as well..
Grouse is mostly bought by the day (Thats your expensive "upper class" shoots). Partridge is mostly bought by the day by the same guys who are in small farm syndicate members.
Thank you.
@tjagain Read what I said again, that's the hunting industry by any other name. Don't bring the rest of shooting into it.
@matt_outandabout I've known a few shooters over the years and that ties in with what Brads says. To be fair most folk who do shoot tend to keep themselves to themselves for obvious (licencing) reasons.
Squirrelking - driven grouse moors are shooting. Not hunting.
Pheasant and partidge shoots are perhaps not as culpable but they still are with the illegal trapping of mustalids and other predators and other very dubious practices including some raptor killings
At least with Pheasant shoots you get the tree cover I suppose
Make no mistake tho - we are seeing the beginning of the end of bloodsports simply because of the huge criminal element.
Don't close your eyes to it.
I know you hope that your drama is actually fact, but it's really not.
But that's ok it's your opinion.
It really is you know Brads
The extent of the criminality right across hunting and shooting has been well and truely exposed. Ewing the shooters friend and the major roadbliock to reform has been removed and the greens are now going to make the policy on this
the hunting and shooting lobby has been given loads of chances to get its house in order and has infact become much much worse
their days are numbered unless they stop destroying the environment and committing these crimes.
Its a proven fact that the vast majority of raptor killings are done on grouse moors and that its almost all grouse moors
Its a proven fact that muirburn causes huge ecological problems
Its a proven fact that the use of medicated grit causes ecological problems
its a proven fact that traps are routinely used illegally and are cruel.
Its a proven fact that drived bird shoooting is a very poor way of using the land if you want emplyment
there is no doubt at all that the disgusting criminal behavior of those running shoots and the wilful blindness of those that shoot disgusts the majority in this country
Your days of slaughtering wildlife for fun are coming to an end
this stuff is not my opinion - its proven fact. Open your eyes man. Unless people like you stop denying the criminality and help to get the criminals out of the industry then the industry will be over - in my lifetime.
@brads, what's not fact? The fact that raptors are persecuted or the fact that you think otherwise?
Cos in North Yorkshire It's a fact & TJ has already put links on that show reports of this. Swaledale & Nidderdale are rife with it.
Ewing the shooters friend and the major roadbliock to reform has been removed and the greens are now going to make the policy on this
Thankfully. The response i got from Ewing when i emailed him relating to this topic was mind blowing, including him sending me a link to a pro-muirburn YouTube video.
The SNP are now having discussions on the topic including the possibility of a ban of muirburn.
I have said this to you before Brads - I think you are a decent chap with a very differnt worldview to me - but you have a choice to make ( as do others in your position) continue to be a part of the problem by denying the problem exists and see your "sport" legislated out of existence or become part of the solution and you might be able to save a sustainable shooting industry.
I have no moral qualms with shooting beasts that end up in the pot. I am a meat eater and free range meat is probably a lessor evil
free range meat is probably a lessor evil
huh, most game birds and especially pheasant are are reared in pretty terrible conditions and are fairly described as "battery chickens in a party frock" Game birds are conveniently "non agricultural" (because the main purpose is sport not food production) so you don't need to follow any of the pesky welfare legislation that covers livestock
most game birds and especially pheasant are are reared in pretty terrible conditions and are fairly described as “battery chickens in a party frock”
I'm not trying to defend the "game industry" but... is that fairly described by someone who's never seen a battery chicken farm? Whilst pheasant are initially reared in fairly tightly packed conditions, if they were as bad as battery chickens they (1) would probably not survive long when released to the wild; (2) would probably not fly too well - which makes for shit sport; (3) won't look too nice when the quarry is brought back to the shooter.
I'm not sure why you think game birds are not livestock - they are whilst they are penned. They are only not livestock once released. Whether gamekeepers etc properly understand that may be a different question, but the law (and organisations like the RSPB) consider that they are.
Like TJ I have no issue with eating game per se and think its probably better than a £2.50 ASDA chicken, but I am acutely aware that mass production of pheasants and partridge for shooting, which are released on mass for a relatively short season can have an adverse effect on the native/local flora/fauna.
I have no moral qualms with shooting beasts that end up in the pot. I am a meat eater and free range meat is probably a lessor evil
As a total aside we should all be eating more venison - deer overpopulation is a massively damaging thing and demand is down due to restaurants being shut.
I’m not sure why you think game birds are not livestock – they are whilst they are penned.
They clearly are, it's just the appropriate legislation dealing with agricultural animal welfare doesn't apply.
would probably not survive long when released to the wild;
It often comes as a shock to folk I find, but pheasants, are about 22 weeks old when they're released for shooting. They neither don't need to be able to fly that well, or last that long in the scheme of things
think its probably better than a £2.50 ASDA chicken
The Asda chicken has probably been reared to better welfare standards, but their lives are shorter (about 6-9 weeks) so maybe it's time to re-think that assumption
New turn of events on my local grousemoor, they've got a tractor up there pulling a plough... wtaf? They've already done several square miles with lovely neat rows. Has anyone seen this before or got any idea why, my best guess is that its an alternative to muirburn?
Or is it the biggest backtracking ever and they're going to start growing tatties up there?
https://www.gwct.org.uk/blogs/news/2018/december/the-great-idea-of-ploughing-up-our-heather-moorlands-is-bizarre-our-letter-published-in-the-national/
Ive seen this tractor thing on grouse moors near Simons Seat in the Yorks Dales. Huge tractor just mashing up the moorland. No idea what for though.
most game birds and especially pheasant are are reared in pretty terrible conditions and are fairly described as “battery chickens in a party frock”
What evidence do you have of this? My dad was a gamekeeper and spent most of his working life rearing pheasants from day olds. Unless properly cared for the birds would not have survived in enough numbers to make it worthwhile. Pheasants are pretty skilled at suicide so a great deal of care and skill goes into rearing them. Partridges are even harder go rear, luckily mallard are indestructible. Once released into the woods they are still well cared for, making sure they have food and shelter, checking on them twice a day. My dad's gamekeeping friends all did this. The goal wasn't to breed cannon fodder but to give the birds a sporting chance. This meant planting new woods and hedging in suitable places to make use of the landscape. He eventually got tired of people who weren't happy unless they had shot more than last time/year or who didn't want go take a brace or two away with them. I think it would be a sad day if shooting was banned but I'd love to see a limit on the numbers that can be shot.
Ploughing up moorland is curious.
About the only precedents I can find are some bampot trying to block open access and trying to change the moor into pasture.
The second of which I'd expect to see a fair bit of (or at least attempting by legal and non legal means) if land is no longer used for hunting.
They clearly are, it’s just the appropriate legislation dealing with agricultural animal welfare doesn’t apply.
The EC directives (and UK implementations) don't apply - but they aren't really about welfare - they are about creating a level playing field. The Animal Welfare acts etc do apply, and there is a govt official code of practice (which if you don't follow it you are probably breaking the Animal Welfare Act) - as far as I can see the difference between pheasant and a 2.50 broiler chicken is that there are extra requirements for the pheasant in the code of practice, but no absolute max on numbers/density, just a statement about appropriate stocking density. The pheasant by its very nature is slow-growing so doesn't suffer from all the issues chickens do when grown as quickly as possible.
In any case though there's no suggestion that keeping pheasant in battery style conditions is either acceptable nor productive. I suspect like many people you've mixed up battery hens and broiler chicken production.
The Asda chicken has probably been reared to better welfare standards, but their lives are shorter (about 6-9 weeks) so maybe it’s time to re-think that assumption
Would I rather be a pheasant packed in a pen and reared with some stimulation, probably daylight, with low mortality in the shed for many weeks then gradually exposed to the outdoors and finally let free to take my chances with the foxes, cars and guns and a perhaps 1:10 chance of making it through the whole season OR would I rather be a chicken where at the first sign of being undersize, weak, ill I'll be euthanased then at 6 weeks electrocuted without ever seeing the outdoors...
I think rearing pheasants has changed since your dad's day. Last figures I could find puts the number at about 50 million (2018), and I think only about 40% actually get shot (based on crude bag counts, no official stats exist) most end up being predated, stave to death, die of disease or become wild, and says of nothing about the environmental damage that over production encourages. I think pheasants now account for something like 20-25% of the entire UK bird breeding population.
You can't really raise that many birds for as long as it takes under the sorts of welfare conditions that even the most cruelly kept chickens are reared for a considerably shorter time, and make any money from it. So they don't.
2008 report about welfare conditions (or lack thereof)
@Poly, if the pheasant breeders/hatcheries took any notice of socking density there wouldn't be the need to over produce in the numbers they do. It's costs under £15 to raise a pheasant from egg to release in 22weeks. Most of that is food. Vet care, record keeping, biosecurity are all sacrificed.
It's not pretty, and it's mostly out of sight.
