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I fear there will be a fair number of fatalities from the stories of people they saw trapped at the top 🙁
At this stage can't blame anything, but eye witnesses have said the cladding was just pouring down. It wouldn't be the start of the fire however, but might contribute to the spread. Unknown though until the investigation starts, which will be some time yet.
Far more of a concern is people saying there was no fire alarm!
On alarm test & fire drills, one guy interviewed said they're done during the day when a lot of people are out.
Company that did the refurb have deleted the page with some of the details on now.
Here's the cached version [url= http://web.archive.org/web/20170614055549/http://www.rydon.co.uk/what-we-do/refurbishment/case-studies/refurbishment-case-studies/grenfell-tower ]http://web.archive.org/web/20170614055549/ http://www.rydon.co.uk/what-we-do/refurbishment/case-studies/refurbishment-case-studies/grenfell-tower [/url]
slowster
fire may well have started within a flat (compartment) however the speed and burn pattern would suggest the cladding was a major factor in the rapid spread.
I can see it still smouldering from my bathroom window 🙁
Things like this are not supposed to happen in a modern society with construction/fire regulations.
Oh my god.
I grew up there. I used to play with the other kids in and around Grenfell in the 1970's. I still have friends in the area, none in grenfell though.
I fear what the death toll will be.
Horrific stories of people on the phone to friends and families trapped inside.
I wonder how many blocks of flats in this country are potentially as deadly ?
If you do Twitter follow: @DawnHFoster for knowledgeable commentary.
slowsterfire may well have started within a flat (compartment) however the speed and burn pattern would suggest the cladding was a major factor in the rapid spread.
I'm just going on the photographs, but looking at some of those again I could well be wrong, and the page wwaswas linked to mentions rain screen cladding (the type I described which can create a flue):
Externally, rain screen cladding, curtain wall façade and replacement windows were fitted, improving thermal insulation and modernising the exterior of the building.
It is possible to specify fire resisting cladding, but fire resisting does not necessarily mean non-combustible: if it's made of plastic, a fire resisting material will burn when it's heated in a major blaze like this one, so yes possibly a major contributory factor to accelerating fire spread between floors, once the fire was well developed and broke out through the windows on the floor of origin.
something I read suggested the cladding had been attached to wooden batterns. If that was the case it could be that the cladding itself is completely fire resistant, but still a factor in the fire
I imagine the review of fire safety in high rises promised last year will actually happen now.
It's a shame that a disaster and major loss of life seems always to be needed to focus the minds of government.
There was a gent on LBC this morning who stated the polystyrene used in the cladding was created with an oil based liquid which is a known accelerant, similar to the ones used in the huge Dubai fire a few months ago.
I've been googling a bit more.
It looks like the external cladding was insulated, in which case the insulation material was most likely expanded plastic foam.
Moreover, if the fire alarm was defective, then not only did residents not get a warning, it may also have meant that the smoke extraction system and fire dampers which were supposed to be activated by the fire alarm did not work. These are supposed to stop the central stairwell and lobbies becoming smoke logged. [url= http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ym6NjHxAJyYJ:wittukgroup.co.uk/grenfell-tower-london-w11-1tq-regeneration-project/+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk ]This is a link to the cache of a webpage of the Witt Group which describes the system installed at Grenfell House[/url].
I spend around half the week working just round the corner and have spent the last 3 years watching all the building work and renovations there and have been a regular user of the newly rebuilt Kensington Leisure Centre next door. I thought it was great that the built environment was receiving so much positive redevelopment.
Horrendous. Those poor people.
It looks like the external cladding was insulated, in which case the insulation material was most likely expanded plastic foam.
I'm not expert, but that's exactly what it looked like - it seemed to take them ages to finish the cladding over last winter (the path to the leisure centre goes right past the tower).
But none of this helps the people who have been injured and killed and families' lives destroyed.
Heard some awful accounts of people jumping from windows on Radio 4 this morning.
Truly awful.
And what now for all the 100's of other tower blocks?
There was a gent on LBC this morning who stated the polystyrene used in the cladding was created with an oil based liquid which is a known accelerant, similar to the ones used in the huge Dubai fire a few months ago.
There is a photograph of what are described as cladding panels being installed on the last page of [url= http://www.kctmo.org.uk/files/105552_kctmo_rydon_grenfell_tower_newsletter_may_2015.pdf ]this newsletter issued by KCTMO [/url]. The photograph is not very good, but they look like foil faced insulation boards, e.g. Kingspan Siteline, Celotex or similar, which is likely to be expanded polyisocyanurate (PIR) foam. It's not polystyrene, although it's conceivably possible that polystyrene could have been used elsewhere on the refurbishment, e.g. in a Sto Render type external finishing system with a render over insulation.
The oil based liquid being an accelerant sounds like garbage. Flammable gases like pentane are used as the blowing agent in the manufacture of plastic foams like polystyrene and polyisocyanurate, but it's the combustible nature of the plastic itself in a cellular foam with loads of air in the foam to provide the oxygen that a fire needs, that is the fire hazard of expanded plastic foams. Polystyrene is the worst because of the way it behaves in a fire.
"Staying Put" has been really bad advice in all recent tower block fires.
Just seen this, looks brutal, thoughts with the people affected. Hope it's not as bad as it sounds.
****.
[i]
including one member of the public who caught a baby thrown from the ninth or 10th floor.
Witness Samira Lamrani told the Press Association: "People were starting to appear at the windows, frantically banging and screaming.
"The windows were slightly ajar, a woman was gesturing that she was about to throw her baby and if somebody could catch her baby.
"Somebody did, a gentleman ran forward and managed to grab the baby."
She added: "I could see people from all angles, banging and screaming for help.
"Us members of the public were reassuring them, telling them we've done what we can and that we've phoned 999, but obviously the look on their face was death.
"My daughter's friend said she observed an adult who made some sort of homemade parachute and tried to lower himself out of the window.
"The more I looked up, floor upon floor. Endless numbers of people. Mainly the kids, because obviously their voices, with their high pitched voices - that will remain with me for a long time.
"I could hear them screaming for their lives." [/i]
This is Grenfell tower as I remember it:
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Typical brutalist concrete construction for the period. there was only one stairwell in the building.
And this is what it looked like after the cladding had been put on:
[img] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwWtBzYumN2KgFgAkC6m-d8NL6WuQRNHUtuxG_eM9WjJbgM5jW [/img]
Seen the live images of the fire spreading up the outside of the building.
To those involved I salute you.
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Awkward, 'let's stop the dissent not deal with the issues reported' letter...
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There is a photograph of what are described as cladding panels being installed on the last page of this newsletter issued by KCTMO . The photograph is not very good, but they look like foil faced insulation boards, e.g. Kingspan Siteline, Celotex or similar, which is likely to be expanded polyisocyanurate (PIR) foam
This is the same cladding system as I've just watched being fitted to an office e block I regularly visit in Glasgow. Basically a metallic channel system is bolted/screwed to the wall and slabs of foil faced PIR material are slotted inside. The whole lot is then covered with a rain/weather cladding, which I think is a Plastic/polimer material.
These materials will all have a class '0' fire rating, which is about as good as it gets, however this doesn't mean they won't burn, it just means they combust in a slow/controlled way.
That situation/environment looks like perfect conditions for those materials to combust - warm/dry/slight breeze.
However, it is still much more combustible than bare concrete...
Part of my job is specifying insulation materials for use on Naval platforms - modern PIR materials are about as good as it gets.
Horrific situation, and once again our emergency services prove to be absolutely awesome.
It was covered with acm cassettes which I think is made by kingspan.
Seasonal factor to this..
I have read several times before, that these fires quickly spread up the outside of residential tower blocks at this time of year, due to most residents windows being open during the warm summer evenings.
Perhaps curtains & blinds should be non-flammable & some kind of fire break apron/ledge
Not only has it spread the fire but has rained down on the firefighters making their lives harder.
It was covered with acm cassettes which I think is made by kingspan.
Yep, that's the stuff.
from the bbc
Recommendations from a report on a tower block fire in 2009 have not been properly reviewed by the government, a parliamentary secretary says.Ronnie King, honorary secretary of the All-Party Fire Safety and Rescue Group, has told LBC that there are around 4,000 tower blocks that do not have fire sprinklers fitted into them.
He said after the fire in Lakanal House in Camberwell, London, in which six people died, there was a "recommendation, which was down to each local council and landlords to determine the appropriateness" of the lack of fire sprinklers in some blocks.
"Our group recommended that due to the speed that the fire spread in Lakanal House, that building regulations should be reviewed. It's nearly 11 years since it has been reviewed.
"Sucessive ministers since 2013 have said they are still looking at it."
On a slightly different note how many of you guys have checked the Fire Alarms in your house recently? I would also hope you all have a fire blanket or extinguisher in the kitchen too.
A few people at work have recently had kitchen fires where these have contained the event but not everyone in the house knew how to use them.
If you have not checked your home or don't know what to do its always a good time to learn.
I have a smoke alarm in the kitchen but keep meaning to buy another for the landing.
We are told our fire service can be streamlined because these days fewer and fewer homes have open fires, but a fireman on the radio earlier said that fire risk is now becoming greater due to all the battery powered tech we now have in our homes that need charging.
I have a smoke alarm in the kitchen but keep meaning to buy another for the landing.
Do it. Do it today.
Even better - ask the local fire brigade to come round and do a safety assessment on your home. They will advise you where you need alarms / detectors and even fit them for you, on the basis an ounce of prevention >>> a tonne of cure.*
They helped us identify problem areas (like we have an open plan downstairs, took doors off but they suggested considering as many fires start in the kitchen having doors you can close to buy time is helpful).
They advised us on an evacuation plan - telling the kids to stay in their beds if they hear the smoke alarms at night, don't open their doors, someone will come for them is far better than giving a fire more oxygen by opening doors and losing a child unconscious somewhere in the house.
Like having a torch by the bed just in case.
And never, ever running your domestic appliances unattended - dishwashers, washing machines, tumble driers [edit - as above; and charging devices, particularly with cheap knock-off chargers]. The temptation to turn them on last thing as you turn in is a no-no according to them. Run them while you are awake and at home so if they do malfunction (and it's slim, but does happen) you know straight away, not once the house is full of smoke.
There's something terrifying about fire to me, more than almost anything else. Police, paramedics - you all are wonderful but for me someone whose job is to run INTO a building when every sane person is going the other way; I cannot express my admiration enough.
* they might even come in the fire engine and let the kids play in it while a couple of them do the survey (and drink your tea and biscuits)
Chip and everyone else
Contact your local fire service and they will fit one for free. It's what we do.
They save lives.
Looking at this photo from the Brigade's twitter account, the two charred 'fingers' which were the lowest point of the fire on the left hand side indicate that the air gap between the outer metal face of the cladding and the insulation behind did act as a flue, especially where those vertical sections of cladding were continuous and not interrupted by windows.
These materials will all have a class '0' fire rating, which is about as good as it gets, however this doesn't mean they won't burn, it just means they combust in a slow/controlled way.
The problem is that the class 0 rating is based on a small controlled test scenario, where a small flame is applied to the surface of a material for a relatively short period to see if the flame will spread on the surface of the material.
PIR and other materials with fire retardants added may pass this test because they will resist ignition for some time, and under such controlled conditions they may only char rather than spreading fire. However, when heated to several hundred degrees in a fire, especially one where the design of the building creates a flue drawing hot air and gases, they will very soon burn as intensely and fiercely as plastics without fire retardants.
EDIT The Class 0/BS476 test is by no means as good as it gets. For a while several years ago Kingspan and Celotex did submit some of their foil faced PIR boards for a more demanding test, LPS 1181, which is designed to better reflect real large scale fire conditions (although the ventilated flue in this application probably exceeded those test conditions and I am not aware that the current range of panels would fail the LPS1181 test, as far as I am aware the makers no longer bother to submit that type of panel for testing because there is no longer any commercial imperative for them to do so).
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I would also hope you all have a fire blanket or extinguisher in the kitchen too.
Our local fire service recomends against trying to use a fire blanket. Trying to put out a chip pan fire or similar often results in horrific burns, in their opinion it is better to close the doors and windows then phone 999. Lose you kitchen but save yourself..................
how many of you guys have checked the Fire Alarms in your house recently
Another tip - replace batteries annually whether the alarm says they need it or not.
It's a Christmas day job for me; you're usually buying a million batteries anyway, 2 more is no hardship.
I can vouch for not running large appliances when out /asleep. House over the road from us was gutted due to a fire caused by the dishwasher.
Drac, that picture is incredible.
I've been in the situation of opening a flat door to a wall of searing heat and a wall of thick black smoke and I've looked out of the window and chosen the hedge to land on if it comes to it. And I've watched the firemen take a baby out of the window below. Fortunately know was hurt with the exception of some bad facial burns on the girl who tried the stairs.
That was from a second floor in a Glasgow tenement and the and the thought of being stuck in that block has had me shaking like a leaf today.
It is - reminded me of some of the WW images
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Checked my alarms (x3 plus CO) and pressure in the extinguisher.
I've been in the situation of opening a flat door to a wall of searing heat
These comments are reminding me of stuff I've been taught in the past - this was from a US chemical plant safety briefing in the event of fire alarms.... before opening a door, don't. Test it for heat with the back of your hand and if it's even warm go another way or wait. And if it's proper hot and burns you - at least you still have functioning palm and fingers.
I can vouch for not running large appliances when out /asleep. House over the road from us was gutted due to a fire caused by the dishwasher.
Doesn't even need to be running. Siemens/Bosch ones could/would catch fire simply by being left plugged in to the mains.
Happened to a friend, who fortunately was still up at 2am and smelled burning, so could raise the alarm. Dishwasher cycle had finished hours earlier.
His incident was not a one-off.
http://www.kingspanbenchmark.com/Products/Engineered-Facade-Systems/Facade-Options
This is made by a number of people, the link is the Kingspan option, I worked for Corus who offered something similar, i have seen Ash and Lacy's production line.
ACM simply means Aluminium Composite, the skin is made of a plastic Auminium composite sheet that is cut and folded to shape, sometimes it is then insulted with a PIR/PUR core other occasions it is un-insulated, really depends on the spec. The panels are then hung from a light steel frame that is screwed onto the existing block/concrete.
Last time I posted that people queued up to tell me the risk was so small it wasn't worth worrying about......
I also have a friend whose house was uninhabitable due to smoke damage from a DW fire, running it overnight. Thankfully the smoke alarms woke him and his other half but even then, his abiding memory was that even though your smoke alarm probably annoys you by going off when you burn toast and there is 'no' smoke - the time it took from alarm waking them to realising what it was to getting out and downstairs, the house was full of impenetrable black smoke.
I'd prefer to save that waking and realising time by not being asleep in the first place.
I know the risks are tiny, and maybe i'm obsessively paranoid about fire in particular, but almost no risk is too small for me.